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Thread: It finally happened......

  1. #1
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    It finally happened......

    The Scene.... Blackfoot Pride Days. Today Saturday 7-16-2011.

    To let everyone one know, pride days is a celebration for the city of Blackfoot, ID. It is held at Jensen's Grove. A park in the city of Blackfoot, which has a nice
    man made lake.....playground equipment for kids....concrete skate park......basketball/roller hockey area....few covered sitting/bbq areas.

    The celebration is 3 days long consisting of many events, food booths, vendors, charities. Today the main events were the car show and the snow machine races across the lake.

    The gf and i wanted to see the car show because her relative had a car in it, and we wanted to see a few sleds sink in the lake. (which quite a few sank half
    way across).

    I was OCing my S&W Sigma .40, she was not OCing cause she was wearing a dress. (We had a wedding and a reception to go to later in the afternoon).

    On our way to get a spot for the sled races, we were stopped by city LEO. (This was my first encounter with an LEO, so yeah alot of mistakes on my part.)
    I figured after all the reading and lurking and casual posting here, that i was ready for it........NOPE, froze like a chicken and tried making cites to codes and
    nothing came to mind.

    He asked for my concealed permit....yeah i gave it to him and he ran it. (I Know...). It came back valid and all clean. So he started with the constitutional right
    line, then moved over to people being scared, and would prefer to have me take it to the car. He said he thought their was a county coded that forbid firearms
    in parks, thats when i mentioned State Pre-emtion, but could not rattle the code number and the actual code. I asked him for the county code number and he
    didn't have it. He then left, I still had my firearm in the open
    and we went to get a good seat.

    Well not long after our water bottles dried up and we needed more. So we walk over to the Elks trailer were they were selling bottled water, and low and behold here is the same LEO and he calls me over. He had got the county code (2006-19). So i caved and didn't want to make a scene being the only one and all the
    people. So i took my firearm back to the car and went to watch the sleds.

    During the sled races i spent most of the time on my iphone looking up pre-emption. This is were i got my nerve back. Eventually we got bored waiting for the
    sleds that sunk get drug out before the next race. So we were out of smokes and wanted a cold dew so we decided to make the 300 yard walk to walmart for
    those and some A/C...was pretty warm today. On our way we passed the LEO and i ask him for his card....he looked and didn't have one on him but said he
    go to his car and get one and bring it to me when we got back.

    Well we returned from walmart and went back to the cars to say goodbye to her family and their he was. I didn't see him, he called my name and we went over and he handed me his card. Thats were i told him i had the pre-emption code for him and suggested he right it down for his reference. I had no problem spilling out I.C. 18-3302J(2).....kinda proud of that. lol

    Thats when we left. On our way back from walmart i seen a Unicorn.....I would have stopped and talked but he was on his way out and we were on our way in
    to say bye and leave. He was wearing a black cowboy hat, black jeans, and a white shirt, with an empty holster. The gf and i made a note of it and moved on. Moving thru the cars to our destination we seen....yup another unicorn, this one was wearing a color full shirt and had a what looked like a 7 maybe 8 inch
    revolver holstered. Wanted to stop and chat but time was not on our side. To both please contact me and we can do some get togethers.

    I know i made a lot of mistakes and have beat myself up over it all day, but now gonna proceed with a few emails to the Cheif, Sheriff, City council, and County Commissioners.

    Maybe next time i will take my junk out of the gf's purse before we go out. lol.

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Not too bad for your first LEO encounter. At least you took the initiative to look up the code and went back to tell the officer. Now you have a little practice in case you have another encounter down the road. The only thing I can suggest is to keep working on learning the laws so that you can confidently tell the officer he/she is wrong. I would definitely write a letter and let us know how it goes. Good luck!!
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Not too bad for your first LEO encounter. At least you took the initiative to look up the code and went back to tell the officer. Now you have a little practice in case you have another encounter down the road. The only thing I can suggest is to keep working on learning the laws so that you can confidently tell the officer he/she is wrong. I would definitely write a letter and let us know how it goes. Good luck!!

    Yeah I am still constructing the letter, figure i got till Monday morning to send it seeing how it's the weekend. Probably would have been more comfortable with other OCer's with me but tried to handle it the best i could and still not make a scene or get taken downtown. lol

  4. #4
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    if any other members here live in SE idaho, and want to hit a big city event let me know i will be glad to go and support. After today, i Know how it feels to be alone and choking under the pressure of the first encounter. My goal is to memorize state code and be prepared. The fair is just around the corner, maybe a group walk, or a booth if we can get funding.....

  5. #5
    Regular Member ColeMD17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    ...Thats when we left. On our way back from walmart i seen a Unicorn.....

    ...Moving thru the cars to our destination we seen....yup another unicorn...
    I'm sorry... Unicorn? Not getting the reference, here... or is that an iPhone autocorrect issue? ...or a hallucinogenics issue...?
    Last edited by ColeMD17; 07-17-2011 at 05:19 AM.
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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Unicorn?

    Yeah, I'm not getting the Unicorn thing either... I'm guessing you mean open carrier. Well, anyway, perhaps a little more time in front of the computer reading the law is in order for you. My first Law Enforcement Officer encounter was when I called them to report a drunk driver on the highway next to me. After a little following, and letting the pursuing officers pass me by, I parked so I could give a statement. The Sergeant on duty made his way to my truck,

    and then...

    Nothing. I gave my statement and he made no comments about my easily visible, leather holstered, 6" Colt Python. My girlfriend was also carrying her Springfield XD SubCompact. The only time guns were even mentioned was when we were writing our statements, and it was only casual conversation.

    Perhaps you should call your representative about the conduct of that officer or file a formal complaint. Next time, though, train yourself to be prepared. Don't stop there either, train for any kind of ill-fated contact. Train for when someone goes to grab your gun. Train for someone berating you in Wal-Mart. But most of all, train for when someone asks you about the legality of your actions so they can become informed. Spread the good word and you won't be alone or have cops all over you.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    "Unicorn" = an OC-er in an area where seeing them is not common. Sorry we screwed up and you did not get the memo.

    This is but another incident where the presence of a working digital audio recorder (if legal) would be useful. No, it won't help the OP remember all the code cites and stuff he is "supposed" to do and "not supposed" to do - but it does document who said what when contacting the higher-ups. Nothing like a nice audio file of Officer Krupke* for his boss to listen to.

    But other than all that, you did good for a first encounter. There is nothing in The Official OC-er Manual for Law Enforcement Encounters that says you need to do any specific stuff, or even get arrested. Now that you have had a chance to go over what happened, you should be in better shape for your next encounter - if there needs to be one.

    stay safe.

    * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq28qCklEHc
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    You did fine. Now you know ID has full preemption of firearm laws and have the cite for it. It constantly amazes me how ignorant cops are on the law they are supposed to enforce, even in Free States. You didn't mention what he said when you corrected his ignorance on the law. Do follow up in a polite way with his superiors.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Confidence and knowing you are not breaking the law is all that is necessary to have that OC not be noticed. How you act is all of it. If you act like like you "might get caught", or you are "getting away with something" you will be noticed.

    Police are trained to look for those people that are acting nervous, or out of place, and then check them out to see why. I know, some people are just self-conscious, but it can be controlled.

  10. #10
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Letter to Sheriff and Cheif

    Below is the letter I drafted and Sent this morning 7/18/2011 @ 7:41 a.m.



    Sheriff Johnson, Chief Moore:

    An incident occurred Saturday morning 7/16/2011 at Jensen’s Grove during the Pride Day events, involving Sergeant Buddy Fowler and myself.

    Sergeant Fowler initiated a stop and ID/CWP check on me because he believed I was violating county ordinance (2006-19) prohibiting firearms in county parks. I was Openly Carrying a holstered semi-auto pistol. During the first contact he could not quote the county ordinance, it was later during a second encounter that he was able to quote the ordinance and asked me to take my firearm back to my vehicle and leave it there. Not wanting to create a scene and try to correct Sergeant Fowler, I complied and returned my firearm to my vehicle.

    Sergeant Fowler initiated an Illegal Terry Stop and ID check for the sole reason of my Openly Carried firearm. He also violated State Preemption I.C. 18-3302J(2) by enforcing county ordinance (2006-19).

    18-3302J(2) Preemption of Firearms Regulation.

    “Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county,
    city, agency, board or any other political subdivision of
    this state may adopt or enforce any law, rule, regulation,
    or ordinance which regulates in any manner the sale,
    acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, transportation,
    carrying or storage of firearms or any element relating to
    firearms and components thereof, including ammunition.”

    This incident shows a gap in the training of Bingham County and Blackfoot City Officers in the regards to State Firearm Laws and State Preemption Law. To avoid further violations and possible civil actions this incident could be seen as a good training tool for the county and city Officers.

    With regards to Sergeant Fowler, he was polite and friendly and professional during the encounters, which is one reason that I didn’t want to force the issue of my rights being violated. Hopefully after this letter, training will take place and another incident can be avoided.

    Thank You

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Nicely worded and professional. Let us know how they respond.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  12. #12
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Nicely worded and professional. Let us know how they respond.

    Thanks, spent the weekend thinking about it and tried to be professional and helpful instead of rude and angry. As soon as i get a response i will defiantly post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Nicely worded and professional. Let us know how they respond.
    I agree. Well done. Let us know what happens.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  14. #14
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Well, i sent that letter via e-mail Monday morning just before 8 a.m., 5 full business days later and no response. Would like some opinion's on how to proceed....

    1. File a formal complaint.

    2. Leave it alone until the next encounter.

    My thinking is I gave them the information and chance to inform their LEO, so if another encounter happens then i will know whether or not they had any training, and can proceed with a formal complaint against the LEO and the Chief or Sheriff. And possible attorney consult depending on the encounter.

  15. #15
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    Well, i sent that letter via e-mail Monday morning just before 8 a.m., 5 full business days later and no response. Would like some opinion's on how to proceed....

    1. File a formal complaint.

    2. Leave it alone until the next encounter.

    My thinking is I gave them the information and chance to inform their LEO, so if another encounter happens then i will know whether or not they had any training, and can proceed with a formal complaint against the LEO and the Chief or Sheriff. And possible attorney consult depending on the encounter.
    That's why I like to add "Please respond within 5 days, or a formal complaint will be filled." or something along those lines. Gives them a deadline and a call to action.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I'd file the complaint emphasizing your impression tht the department's training is the issue moreso than the police officer's behavior/demeanor.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    Well, i sent that letter via e-mail Monday morning just before 8 a.m., 5 full business days later and no response. Would like some opinion's on how to proceed....

    1. File a formal complaint.

    2. Leave it alone until the next encounter.
    Howdy Amigo!
    First off, I'd not have sent the information via email. You have no evidence that the party to whom you sent it ever opened it or saw it. There are some office holders who have people do that chore for them.

    Send your original letter by certified/signature required through the post office. Add "The courtesy of a prompt reply (within 5 working days) is appreciated. Please respond immediately upon receipt."

    Get those into the mail right away, keep the original slips from the post office to indicate you filed for signature required mail. They'll send you a receipt through the mail that the letters were delievered and who signed for them.

    The next step, if this action fails in 5 business days, is to call the individuals directly and ask why they have failed to respond to your original letter. Express to them that you consider this lapse of training an important issue that deserves to be addressed by their leadership.

    Finally, I'd also like to make a suggestion for your open carry gear.
    I have a small leather notebook. It fits easily into my back pocket and I carry it with me when I am out oc'ing. In it I have written specific state statutes as apply to open carry. No matter how much you may apply yourself to memorizing the laws, when confronted with an LEO, you are going to get nervous. This is particuarly true when confronted by an LEO who appears aggressive. Relying on memory in a stress situation is, well, unreliable. Having the specific statutes written down in a small notebook and carried with you means being able to refer to them readily when confronted. I also carry a Droid, and can pull up those specific statutes from the internet when an officer is doubtful of the statute quoted. Then they can see what their own department has to say on the matter. For example, the county sheriff's office where I live has a website. They have a section devoted to CCW. In that section is a FAQ area. It says: "Is it required for me to have a permit to carry a weapon?" the answer is "No. You need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Open carry is legal in most public areas in Colorado, except where otherwise posted," etc, etc.
    So, if confronted by a sheriff's deputy about open carrying, I can immediately pull up that website as I have it bookmarked for rapid access. When I show them what their sheriff (their boss) says on the matter, the converstation is immediately brought to a screeching halt.

    Being armed means being prepared. That means being armed to defend your postion. My little notebook has specific statutes regarding state preemption of local ordinaces or codes. It has specific statutes as pertain to where I can (or cannot) carry openly. If my memory fails during a stress test, I can simply open my little notebook and cite specific statutes to the officer. And once I have sustained my legitimacy, I can move forward to discuss his stopping me without RAS, as stipulated in Terry.

    Being armed means more than simply carrying a gun. It includes being armed with facts that you can readily bring into play.
    Your rights are best defended when you can site them, chapter and verse. But don't rely on memory alone. When stressed, it will scramble like Sunday moring breakfast eggs!!!

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

  18. #18
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    reply to M-Taliesin:

    I have started carrying 3 Idaho pamphlets with me along with a few business cards that has more info printed on them. Folded in half they fit nicely in my back pocket. I learned my lesson and will always have the info on paper not just for me but for whoever has a question or doubt.

    thanks to all the reply's, i still have till Monday afternoon to make a decision. (reason being is i don't get of work till 3:30 p.m.).

    Another question..... Should i snail mail my complaint or go into the department and file one?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    "Unicorn" = an OC-er in an area where seeing them is not common. Sorry we screwed up and you did not get the memo.
    Not quite. A unicorn is an OCer who just up and started open carrying because he discovered on his own that it was legal, coming by the knowledge without connection to OCDO, etc.

    Such a person who found out and was willing to actually OC was judged to be as likely as a unicorn.

    Given the press on OC, new unicorns are not likely anymore. A few real unicorns are with us. I think SonoranRebel is a unicorn. There are a few others around here, I think, too.

    Unicorns should never be declared, since one can't really know whether the OCer is a unicorn without talking to them to find out how they came to the decision to OC.

    Properly referenced a unicorn is always mentioned with some uncertainty. For example, "I think I might have seen a unicorn today. There was this guy OCing in the Big Gobble Grocery Store on Tuesday evening. Didn't talk to him, though." Or, "Unicorn? Saw a motorcyclist yesterday on the Memorial Freeway. Glock or XD in a Serpa holster. Red ninja bike. Anybody know him?"
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-24-2011 at 02:50 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    It finally happened...
    Informative thread titles, please.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Informative thread titles, please.
    "It" finally happened. Clearly he was talking about the killer clown. What else do you need to know?

    Attachment 6443
    Last edited by thebigsd; 07-24-2011 at 02:54 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  22. #22
    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    To citizen;

    Well its apparent so far that they were called out and described in my original post and neither one has posted so..... until they do their not a member of this forum. which would classify them unicorns until one steps forward.

    Amazing how people will nit pick at a thread and not give any value to the discussion as you did.

  23. #23
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    I could be recruiting more members if I had some pamphlets and materials........

    Hint hint hint

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    To citizen;

    Amazing how people will nit pick at a thread and not give any value to the discussion as you did.

    Huh!?!

    I tweak Skid's definition, and you get defensive?

    I ask for informative thread titles and you get defensive?

    Something doesn't make sense here.

  25. #25
    Regular Member robert1970's Avatar
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    so far i havent had eny incedents yet

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