Notification Issue in Ohio...

smellslikemichigan · Jul 22, 2011

from ohioccw.org

UPDATE 7/22/2011: Canton Police announced Thursday that the officer was relieved of all duties in June following an internal investigation complaint filed in this matter. The local Canton Repository has done some additional investigatory work into the officers and an excellent analysis of the video / audio we posted. The video and story has gone both viral and national crossing over to websites not typically affiliated with the pro-gun movement. Shortly after 7:00pm Thursday our website could no longer handle the volume of visitors we were receiving. We promptly quadrupled the resources behind OhioCCW.org in light of the popularity of this story.

Jerbear1098 · Jul 22, 2011

This just hit Fox News this morning. After reading everything from Washington state to the OFCC site, my guess is, this "LOE" won't get a job as a mall cop.

I watched that video a few times, first in disbelief, then to try to see when he disclosed. It appears the driver tried as the cop walked up to the car, but was shouted down.

The cop was more concerned about the girl. Why would any officer search a car with a person in it? :banghead:

smellslikemichigan · Jul 22, 2011

http://www.cantonrep.com/carousel/x...er-investigation-after-concealed-carry-arrest

eastmeyers · Jul 22, 2011

smellslikemichigan said:
UPDATE 7/22/2011: Canton Police announced Thursday that the officer was relieved of all duties in June following an internal investigation complaint filed in this matter. The local Canton Repository has done some additional investigatory work into the officers and an excellent analysis of the video / audio we posted. The video and story has gone both viral and national crossing over to websites not typically affiliated with the pro-gun movement. Shortly after 7:00pm Thursday our website could no longer handle the volume of visitors we were receiving. We promptly quadrupled the resources behind OhioCCW.org in light of the popularity of this story.

He may have been relieved of all duties in June, but he hasn't been fired. He is on paid sick leave. This comes from several national sources I have read, including the one I posted a few minutes ago.

stainless1911 · Jul 22, 2011

The person shouldnt have had to disclose, he shouldnt have had to get a permission slip to begin with. This cop has no respect for the people who employ him, nor the country and its constitution he serves.

aadvark · Jul 22, 2011

I was Saddened by The Video as Well, however; that Officer should have been Fired!

Merely Suspending His Involvement with The Department, with Paid Sick Leave, is NOT Justice for The Law-abiding!

HKcarrier · Jul 22, 2011

mmdkyoung123 said:
If this is your opinion of how someone who isn't allowed to notify should be handled, it would seem that you think the "duty to notify" should stay intact. If we allow police to act in such a manner now, then repealing a duty to notify would make no sense. Do I think that he should have continued trying to notify, yes. But that does NOT justify the officers actions. If we see someone on the street and there shirt rises and we see a gun should we pull ours in case they are dangerous? Should they have to notify us that they are a cpl holder? Do you really think that if he was able to tell the officer at the beginning that his (the officers) behavior would have been better?

No, I don't condone the behavior by the cop, and I do feel it would have gone down differently had he informed the "back-seat searcher" that he was carrying.

Clearly the behavior by the cops was so far over the line it's not even funny. I just think that the Dumb-dumb deserves some of the blame too. Certain people are just idiots, and their idiocy usually makes everyone around them uneasy and aggitated.

CoonDog · Jul 22, 2011

Can someone knowledgeable on the topic please describe what constituted PC for the vehicle search (cop in backseat)? Or was it consensual? I couldn't really tell.

ccwinstructor · Jul 22, 2011

It has been claimed that the officer ordered everyone to "shut up" or go to jail

HKcarrier said:
No, I don't condone the behavior by the cop, and I do feel it would have gone down differently had he informed the "back-seat searcher" that he was carrying.

Clearly the behavior by the cops was so far over the line it's not even funny. I just think that the Dumb-dumb deserves some of the blame too. Certain people are just idiots, and their idiocy usually makes everyone around them uneasy and aggitated.

I have seen a couple of people claim that the officer ordered the people in the car to "shut up or you are going to jail". It is consistant with his aggressive behavior.

I don't see that the driver could have done much differently. CCW carriers are not trained to deal with a cop who doesn't approach them, orders everyone to "shut up", ignores them and enters the back seat of the car without asking for a drivers license.

stainless1911 · Jul 22, 2011

CoonDog said:
Can someone knowledgeable on the topic please describe what constituted PC for the vehicle search (cop in backseat)? Or was it consensual? I couldn't really tell.

Ive been wondering the same thing.

mark-in-texas · Jul 22, 2011

Just $0.02 Texas...Both cops are luck it was a permit holder!! If it had been a wanted perp, he had SEVERAL oppertunitied to cap both officers due to their outrageous lack of tactics! Even if the driver hadn't been carrying, if he knew how, he could have taken the gun of the officer doing the search in hte back seat.

Badger Johnson · Jul 24, 2011

mrjam2jab said:
As mentioned...this is a perfect argument for eliminating the stupid Notification Laws.

Explain this to me. If cops can legally lie, what's to stop them from ALWAYS charging you with failure to notify (in states where this is a law or when the LEO is a transplant from, say, Ohio, and makes up his own laws). There is literally NO WAY for anyone to PROVE in court that they did notify.

Now, I'm not saying all LEOs lie every time. It's not a necessary part of the paradigm. The fact is they can lie and this law is set up so you CAN'T win. It's only if the LEO decides to be a nice guy. Now, carrying a HG is not like making any other LEO stop - it's a direct threat to them (in their minds, and in reality). So it's an emotional issue. I dare say that if LEOs could cast a secret and binding vote and have gun rights removed they'd go for it nearly 100%. Thus if there's going to be any 'bending of the truth' it's going to be in this area.

There is absolutely no reason for a 'notify' law and it's unenforceable, if you think about it. Consider any decent Lawyer's argument.

"Judge, we all know cops are legally allowed to lie. My client says he did notify, the cop says he didn't. I submit there is literally NO WAY for my client to prove it, and every reason to believe that the cops lied. In addition my client's license when run shows he has a CHL, thus there's really no way to break this law - my client CAN'T hide the fact he has a HG, even if he asserts his 5th amendment right not to talk at all (or, if no RAS). The law is unenforceable, your Honor and I move for a dismissal."

IANAL, of course.

$.02

eastmeyers · Jul 24, 2011

Badger Johnson said:
Explain this to me. If cops can legally lie, what's to stop them from ALWAYS charging you with failure to notify (in states where this is a law or when the LEO is a transplant from, say, Ohio, and makes up his own laws). There is literally NO WAY for anyone to PROVE in court that they did notify.

Now, I'm not saying all LEOs lie every time. It's not a necessary part of the paradigm. The fact is they can lie and this law is set up so you CAN'T win. It's only if the LEO decides to be a nice guy. Now, carrying a HG is not like making any other LEO stop - it's a direct threat to them (in their minds, and in reality). So it's an emotional issue. I dare say that if LEOs could cast a secret and binding vote and have gun rights removed they'd go for it nearly 100%. Thus if there's going to be any 'bending of the truth' it's going to be in this area.

There is absolutely no reason for a 'notify' law and it's unenforceable, if you think about it. Consider any decent Lawyer's argument.

"Judge, we all know cops are legally allowed to lie. My client says he did notify, the cop says he didn't. I submit there is literally NO WAY for my client to prove it, and every reason to believe that the cops lied. In addition my client's license when run shows he has a CHL, thus there's really no way to break this law - my client CAN'T hide the fact he has a HG, even if he asserts his 5th amendment right not to talk at all (or, if no RAS). The law is unenforceable, your Honor and I move for a dismissal."

IANAL, of course.

$.02

Police Officers are "authorized" to lie in an investigation. ANYONE can lie during everyday conversation (1A). It is ILLEGAL for ANYONE (even police officers) to lie under oath, this is perjury.

TheQ · Jul 25, 2011

eastmeyers said:
Police Officers are "authorized" to lie in an investigation. ANYONE can lie during everyday conversation (1A). It is ILLEGAL for ANYONE (even police officers) to lie under oath, this is perjury.

...but lying back to police is obstruction of Justice. Such double standard horse sh*t.

DanM · Jul 25, 2011

TheQ said:
...but lying back to police is obstruction of Justice. Such double standard horse sh*t.

Please consider that it is not obstruction of justice if the police lie to a contact or suspect whom they have RAS or PC has committed a crime or is involved with a crime, and the lie elicits information which leads to the proper arrest and conviction of the bad guy(s).

Not all police lies are criminally wrong. Those that are, of course, should be investigated and held to account. But police lies, done properly in the course of an investigation, are both legally and ethically permissible. The key is "done properly".

smellslikemichigan · Jul 25, 2011

dan, the lies that i have a problem with are ones like:

officer: "i'd like to search your vehicle"

driver: "am i legally required to allow you to search my vehicle?"

officer: "yes"

i find that scenario to be completely unethical

HKcarrier · Jul 26, 2011

smellslikemichigan said:
dan, the lies that i have a problem with are ones like:

officer: "i'd like to search your vehicle"

driver: "am i legally required to allow you to search my vehicle?"

officer: "yes"

i find that scenario to be completely unethical

That's why it's important to know your rights... and NEVER consent to a search... even if he says you're legally required, you still keep repeating "I DON'T CONSENT TO SEARCHES"...

They will lie and do whatever they can to trick you into consenting to a search.

DrTodd · Jul 28, 2011

CCW laws "completely insane": Canton City Council President rails against Americans upset about cop's behavior on dash cam video

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7910

Packer fan · Jul 29, 2011

DrTodd said:
CCW laws "completely insane": Canton City Council President rails against Americans upset about cop's behavior on dash cam video

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7910

Apparently we are getting to this anti who isn't against guns or weapons and people who hunt but...

So it was ok for the Officer to threaten to put lumps on the unarmed woman's head when she walked back and he told her to get out of there.

I think we should just keep the pressure up.

Just let this guy know that we have always been armed since the founding of this nation. The 2a is not a permit but a right. Did he have to pay for a 1A permit to go on this rant?

Packer fan · Jul 29, 2011

Just sent an email to the Mayor of Canton saying I appreciate Allen letting us know that it will be standard operating procedure for officers in his town to threaten to murder people for exercising their right.

Not only will I have to defend myself form criminals but officers too.

Notification Issue in Ohio...

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Centurion

Banned

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Regular Member

Michigan Moderator

Regular Member

Regular Member