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Thread: concealed in a vehicle

  1. #1
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    concealed in a vehicle

    hey everybody. it seems every time i work a gun show. i hear another question about a gun law. this one was pointed out to me with a cite. i would like to get y'all to weigh in on this. i know it is basically a concealed issue. but, i know this site is some of the best informed on the net
    here is the question:

    do you have to have a concealed carry permit to legally have a gun out of sight in a vehicle ?

    18.2-308 - Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person. Any of the enumerated weapons shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth. A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    from the VA state trooper website ;

    Transporting Firearms through Virginia
    While it is the general policy of this agency to provide assistance and information to private citizens whenever possible, the Department of State Police does not provide legal advice, opinions, or statute interpretation to private individuals.
    Virginia does not require firearm registration nor is it necessary to obtain a permit before carrying a firearm or other such weapon openly about the person except where prohibited by statute.
    Pursuant to 18.2-308 of the Code of Virginia, resident concealed handgun permits are issued by the circuit court of the jurisdiction in which the applicant resides, and nonresident concealed handgun permits are issued by the Virginia State Police.
    As of July 1, 2010, a concealed handgun permit is not necessary when carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Two things.

    The first is the wording:
    or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person.

    If it's hidden because it's in plain sight from one angle but not another angle, it's not concealed. Like wearing it on your hip. It has to be hidden from some point.

    The second is that firearms can now be carried in a secured container (Glove box, Console, Etc".

    Same cite you gave.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The posed question seems to have a twist in it: "to legally have a gun out of sight in a vehicle". Seems to me the question is getting into the area of intent, as opposed to trying to understand the difference between open and concealed carry in an automobile.

    Case law says that covering a firearm on the back seat with a blanket is concealed, as is a shotgun laying between the driver's eat and the transmission hump but otherwise not blocked from view. Everyday experience (admitting that the plural of anecdote does not equal data) is that a holstered firearm on your belt while sitting in the vehicle is not treated as concealed, just as sitting in a booth with your strong side to the wall is not concealed, all other things being equal.

    Why having a blanket over a firearm would be considered concealed is a no-brainer. Why a shotgun laying in the space between the seat and transmission hump is considered concealed takes a bit of thought, but it seems to me that the reasoning generally is that the firearm was readily/easily accessable but not so that anyone looking from any "usual" or "common" angle into the vehicle could see it. (Lost my cite to that case, so I'm substituting http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/0262012.txt - pellet gun hidden from "common observation which uses basically the same line of reasoning.)

    A cop looking at you through the driver's side window probably would not see that you were openly wearing a holster with a handgun in the holster, but if he were to go to the passenger's side window and look at you he probably would notice that. That's "common observation". If the cop has to lean in and shine his flashlight around to find you have a firearm stuck somewhere that's not.

    So, the questioner owes you a better explanation of what he is inquiring about.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  4. #4
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    SKIDMARK, you can probably blame my writing skills for not expressing it right. this is kind of questions that i get when i am doing some events. the questioner was a supporter of citizens gun ownership. and it was a question that made you go , Hmmmm.
    since i am a OC advocate and i have to say that a majority of others seem to favor CC, i do get into some discussions about it.

    i know of a couple of arrests where the one open carrying was turned away from the officer, but this was a few years ago, and the officer was trying to find something.
    in some states it is considered concealed if it is out of sight, but not locked

    BTW, i thought the statement " disguise the weapons true nature". doesn't that sound like the weapon has an evil spirit in it?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Papa Bear -

    It's not your writing skills but my tendency to look for the complete, comprehensive answer that has the least chance of obfuscation as long as you are willing to follow and and read the footnotes.

    And I know about trying to answer questions thrown at you from the general public. They want an answer with the wisdom of Solomon, the depth of halakha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha and all as either "Yes" or "No".

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  6. #6
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Two things.

    The second is that firearms can now be carried in a secured container (Glove box, Console, Etc".

    Same cite you gave.
    I've been mistakenly saying "in a secured container", too, but the wording of 18.2-308(B)(10) is "secured in a" rather than "in a secured"

    "in a secured container" and "secured in a container" could probably be construed to mean different things.

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    User just handled a case, specifically about this, for a friend of mine. He was charged with having a concealed handgun, because it was in a zipper case, inside a backpack, in his car. When it finally got to trial, the charges were dropped. Of course, that didn't stop my friend from getting cuffed-and-stuffed, having his gun taken away for 7 months, or going through several months of legal torment. Here's hoping the word spreads around at least that particular department, that 18.2-308 (b)10 means what it says.

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Just finished up another one, similar facts: glock 17 in the glovebox. Sheriff's deputy wanted to create a "test case", filed a written statement in support of the warrant after having been told by the magistrate that a closed zip-lock bag would be a sufficient container (the Commonwealth's Attorney does not agree with that judgment, btw, but somewhere between glovebox and zip-lock bag there's a cut-off as to what constitutes a closed container).

    The deputy's written statement was clear that the loaded gun was in a closed glove compartment. The defendant did not have a CHP.

    I filed my usual voluminous motions with supporting memoranda, asking the Court to dismiss the case. The judge gave the Commonwealth until tomorrow to file a memorandum in opposition. Got a call this afternoon from the Assistant C/w who's prosecuting the case; said he'd talked to the boss and they'd agreed that I was right and they're going to fax me a proposed order tomorrow taking a nolle pros.; they agreed to put in a provision that the kid will get his personal property returned to him promptly.

    Here's the argument in a nutshell: "secured" is not a synonym for "locked". It's a more general term meaning "restrained". You can secure something by locking it, but you can't necessarily lock something by securing it. You can (as one Sup. Ct. opinion put it) "secure" a gate by looping a rope over it and the gatepost. Or as on statute puts it, you must "secure" a child under a certain age by strapping the kid into a "safety seat".

    If you ever get involved in a conversation with a cop in which this distinction becomes an issue, ask the cop, point-blank, whether he/she arrived on the scene with his/her seatbelt secured, and, if so, what kind of key was necessary to get out of the car.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  9. #9
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Thanks USER you are a credit to your profession. a lot of attorney's would have just told their clients to plead guilty and throw themselves on the mercy.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Just finished up another one, similar facts: glock 17 in the glovebox. Sheriff's deputy wanted to create a "test case", filed a written statement in support of the warrant after having been told by the magistrate that a closed zip-lock bag would be a sufficient container (the Commonwealth's Attorney does not agree with that judgment, btw, but somewhere between glovebox and zip-lock bag there's a cut-off as to what constitutes a closed container).

    The deputy's written statement was clear that the loaded gun was in a closed glove compartment. The defendant did not have a CHP.

    I filed my usual voluminous motions with supporting memoranda, asking the Court to dismiss the case. The judge gave the Commonwealth until tomorrow to file a memorandum in opposition. Got a call this afternoon from the Assistant C/w who's prosecuting the case; said he'd talked to the boss and they'd agreed that I was right and they're going to fax me a proposed order tomorrow taking a nolle pros.; they agreed to put in a provision that the kid will get his personal property returned to him promptly.

    Here's the argument in a nutshell: "secured" is not a synonym for "locked". It's a more general term meaning "restrained". You can secure something by locking it, but you can't necessarily lock something by securing it. You can (as one Sup. Ct. opinion put it) "secure" a gate by looping a rope over it and the gatepost. Or as on statute puts it, you must "secure" a child under a certain age by strapping the kid into a "safety seat".

    If you ever get involved in a conversation with a cop in which this distinction becomes an issue, ask the cop, point-blank, whether he/she arrived on the scene with his/her seatbelt secured, and, if so, what kind of key was necessary to get out of the car.
    So the question is, how many times and at what level does this have to happen before a sufficient precedent is set to stop these arrests from happening all across the state?

    Also... does the victim here have any recourse against a "deputy want[ing] to create a 'test case'"? That wrong on too many levels to count. What if a deputy decided to make a test case out of wearing yellow shirts on Tuesdays? You'd win real fast, but you're still out the legal fees to fight the moron.

    TFred

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Just finished up another one, similar facts: glock 17 in the glovebox. Sheriff's deputy wanted to create a "test case", filed a written statement in support of the warrant after having been told by the magistrate that a closed zip-lock bag would be a sufficient container (the Commonwealth's Attorney does not agree with that judgment, btw, but somewhere between glovebox and zip-lock bag there's a cut-off as to what constitutes a closed container).

    The deputy's written statement was clear that the loaded gun was in a closed glove compartment. The defendant did not have a CHP.

    I filed my usual voluminous motions with supporting memoranda, asking the Court to dismiss the case. The judge gave the Commonwealth until tomorrow to file a memorandum in opposition. Got a call this afternoon from the Assistant C/w who's prosecuting the case; said he'd talked to the boss and they'd agreed that I was right and they're going to fax me a proposed order tomorrow taking a nolle pros.; they agreed to put in a provision that the kid will get his personal property returned to him promptly.

    Here's the argument in a nutshell: "secured" is not a synonym for "locked". It's a more general term meaning "restrained". You can secure something by locking it, but you can't necessarily lock something by securing it. You can (as one Sup. Ct. opinion put it) "secure" a gate by looping a rope over it and the gatepost. Or as on statute puts it, you must "secure" a child under a certain age by strapping the kid into a "safety seat".

    If you ever get involved in a conversation with a cop in which this distinction becomes an issue, ask the cop, point-blank, whether he/she arrived on the scene with his/her seatbelt secured, and, if so, what kind of key was necessary to get out of the car.
    I have a question about what I perceive to be the dreaded nolle pros.. I thought a nolle pros. was when the CW agrees not to prosecute and the charges are not expunged from one's record thus allowing future prosecution on those charges if he later deciedes to reinstate them. With the charges still being on one's record if one was to apply for a job requiring a security clearance or wanted to apply for any job that required a background check the record would still reflect an outstanding criminal charge with no record of the case ever being resolved thus causing the potential employee or security clearance applicant to be someone who could be considered by those requiring the background check to believe one is a criminal that was not prosecuted. Am I right? If so, what good is it to settle for a nolle pros. when you were falsly arrested, especially on a gun charge? Would it not be better off to force them to expunge ones record or proceed to trail and seek payment of legal fees under preemption?

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Expungment is a separate process. Even if you're found not guilty, the arrest is on your record.You then have to file with the court to have the record expunged.

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    Hey y'all I have a question along these lines, first of all I do not have a CHP as of yet but do OC everywhere I go. When I get in my Jeep I usually leave my gun on my side (holstered on my right hip) and was worried that I would get in trouble if I got pulled over for having it concealed as you can not see it from the drivers or passengers window of my Jeep (the center console keeps it out of view of anyone looking in the passenger window) Honestly if I got pulled over the officer wouldn't even see the gun unless I got out of the truck but I want to know what the law is in this case. Is it being on my hip still considered OC?

  14. #14
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtommec View Post
    Hey y'all I have a question along these lines, first of all I do not have a CHP as of yet but do OC everywhere I go. When I get in my Jeep I usually leave my gun on my side (holstered on my right hip) and was worried that I would get in trouble if I got pulled over for having it concealed as you can not see it from the drivers or passengers window of my Jeep (the center console keeps it out of view of anyone looking in the passenger window) Honestly if I got pulled over the officer wouldn't even see the gun unless I got out of the truck but I want to know what the law is in this case. Is it being on my hip still considered OC?
    The statute says on or about your person. Obviously, it's never visible from every angle so if you're in your car or sitting at a booth in a restaurant and a LEO asks you to stand up and turn around, is it open to common observation. That's your answer.

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