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Thread: CC NRA-ILA workshop at cabela's!

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    CC NRA-ILA workshop at cabela's!

    I went to this workshop and was told that my DD214 needs to have small arms training written on it in order to apply for CC.Mine doesn't have it on it but i did go thru training in boot camp.I called sara the NRA-ILA person and she said she'd get back to me.Anyone know the answer?

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    That is right, your DD214 has to show small arms training on it. You can also use any certificate (from the military) you may have that shows small arms training. Do you have your certificate from when you graduated basic, or maybe a weapons qual?? You might want to go to the VA and have them look up you records that show small arms training and then they can add it to your dd214 and print you a new one.
    Last edited by CCW412; 07-19-2011 at 05:33 PM.

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    Regular Member Gordo's Avatar
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    Does having pistol and rifle qualification badges in the awards badges and decorations section qualify? I know it doesn't state that I had the training but it does state that I earned the badge.
    Former Corporal of Marines.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCW412 View Post
    That is right, your DD214 has to show small arms training on it. You can also use any certificate (from the military) you may have that shows small arms training. Do you have your certificate from when you graduated basic, or maybe a weapons qual?? You might want to go to the VA and have them look up you records that show small arms training and then they can add it to your dd214 and print you a new one.
    Please read the law before spouting off fiction as fact:

    175.60(4) Training Requirements, (a)The proof
    of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the
    following: [... ]

    "4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in
    the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an
    honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions
    or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record
    of successful completion of small arms training and certification."
    It has bunch of 'or' statements. The key is, if you have an honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions OR a certificate of completions of small arms training.

    OMG! We are or own worse enemies! We spout crap about stuff we know nothing about as the truth and then others, who think we know what we are talking about it repeat it.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Don't say "we". Cause if you don't know what you are talking about the rest of us will actually have to start reading this stuff...

    Paul for Governor!
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Don't say "we". Cause if you don't know what you are talking about the rest of us will actually have to start reading this stuff...

    Paul for Governor!
    I've been wrong a couple times on this bill so far but I went back and edited it and made sure to fess up. Guess I'm a little cranky. It's flippin' hot out!
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 07-19-2011 at 07:29 PM.

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    So i'm good to go?

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glockface View Post
    So i'm good to go?
    I'm sorry, I am not ex-military so I have no clue what a DD214 is so I can't answer that. The law does't use that terminology either. Do you fit under any of the 'OR's I put up there?

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I'm sorry, I am not ex-military so I have no clue what a DD214 is so I can't answer that. The law does't use that terminology either. Do you fit under any of the 'OR's I put up there?
    DD214 is the discharge paperwork.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    DD214 is the discharge paperwork.
    OK, but does it have caveats? For example, can a DD214 say 'dishonorable'? If so,saying a DD214 will satisfy the training requirement would be wrong. As I said, one needs to read the law and if you have a document that meets any of the 'or's, then you are good to go, otherwise, find a training class to satisfy it.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 07-20-2011 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Fixed typo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    OK, but does it have caveats? For example, can a DD214 say 'dishonorable'? If so,saying a DD214 will satisfy the training requirement would be wrong. As I said, one needs to read the law and if you have a document that meets all the 'or's, then you are good to go, otherwise, find a training class to satisfy it.
    You have to read the info on the DD214. It contains the particulars for that individual.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CCW412 View Post
    That is right, your DD214 has to show small arms training on it. You can also use any certificate (from the military) you may have that shows small arms training. Do you have your certificate from when you graduated basic, or maybe a weapons qual?? You might want to go to the VA and have them look up you records that show small arms training and then they can add it to your dd214 and print you a new one.
    Please read the law before spouting off fiction as fact:

    175.60 (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training
    requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of
    the following:[… ]
    “4. Documentation of completion of small arms training
    while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or
    national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge
    or general discharge under honorable conditions
    or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service
    record of successful completion of small arms training
    and certification.”
    It has bunch of 'or' statements. The key is, if you have an honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions OR a certificate of completions of small arms training.

    OMG! We are or own worse enemies! We spout crap about stuff we know nothing about as the truth and then others, who think we know what we are talking about it repeat it.
    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I've been wrong a couple times on this bill so far but I went back and edited it and made sure to fess up. Guess I'm a little cranky. It's flippin' hot out!
    You are wrong again! Do you want to cool off and figure it out on your own, or do you want me to spell it out for you?

    CCW412 is correct.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 07-19-2011 at 09:47 PM.

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    Regular Member littlewolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    OK, but does it have caveats? For example, can a DD214 say 'dishonorable'? If so,saying a DD214 will satisfy the training requirement would be wrong. As I said, one needs to read the law and if you have a document that meets all the 'or's, then you are good to go, otherwise, find a training class to satisfy it.
    A DD214 is your Official discharge record it contains of course Name, DOB< rank at discharge, place of entry/discharge Date of same, decorations, medals,qualification badges. Military education. service dates. MOS (military occupational skills).

    As far as range qualifications ,mine are not shown as they change on a regular basis, when I was in most MOS's qualified once a year,some such as Special Forces more often or "familiarized" with certain weapons like machine gun, pistol, hand grenade , rocket lawnchers. I have a seperate certificate listing a score of Tasks that had to be completed succesfully to get my "H" designator (Instructor rating ) one of which is Engage targets with .45 cal pistol.

    The requirement as I see it is the same as Florida as far as the military is concerned DD214 Hon. or Gen. discharge is all thats needed. I have a FL CCW and just used my DD214 as training.

    I will submit My DD214, FL permit , Military,Cert of training ,FFL and my VA 100% disability rating just to give them more paperwork to look at !
    Last edited by littlewolf; 07-19-2011 at 09:50 PM.
    Owner Little Wolf Firearms , US ARMY RETIRED 101st Airborne & 84th DIV TRNG Small arms instructor.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    You are wrong again! Do you want to cool off and figure it out on your own, or do you want me to spell it out for you?

    CCW412 is correct.
    Please provide a citation showing I am wrong.

    Anyhow, I did some more digging with some assistance of someone who cannot be mentioned, there is a field on the DD214 saying 'character of service', and his says 'honorable'. So.... I assume if you are a bad guy, it would say something to the effect of 'dishonorable'. If that was the case, it wouldn't count as proof of training when it comes to the state of WI.

    So.... my original statement stands. No one can say if a DD214 is suitable for proof, it depends what it says on it. As for it having to say 'firearm proficient' or 'firearm trained', unless I am missing something (if I am, please provide a citation), the laws says 'or'.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 07-19-2011 at 09:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Please read the law before spouting off fiction as fact:



    It has bunch of 'or' statements. The key is, if you have an honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions OR a certificate of completions of small arms training.

    OMG! We are or own worse enemies! We spout crap about stuff we know nothing about as the truth and then others, who think we know what we are talking about it repeat it.
    I am sorry but what was I spouting off that was fiction.....for someone who has no idea what a DD214 is you sure were quick to jump all over me!

    Currently If some one only served 3yrs active duty and get out they are not discharged, they are separated and transferred to the Inactive reserves for 5yrs. So their DD214 might not say honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions. Your actual discharge comes after the total 8yr commitment, Then they will need to show proof of small arms training. A basic training cert might show small arms training, but for the people who have small arms training stated on the DD214, like mine it will work!
    Last edited by CCW412; 07-19-2011 at 10:16 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
    Paul, I will break it down for you..


    This is the WHAT
    Documentation of completion of small arms training
    This is the WHERE
    while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard
    This is the HOW
    as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions
    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    DD214 is the discharge paperwork. You have to read the info on the DD214. It contains the particulars for that individual.
    "Documentation of completion of small arms training" is on the DD214.

    OR for those who are still serving....
    or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
    Does that clear it up for you, Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    You are wrong again! Do you want to cool off and figure it out on your own, or do you want me to spell it out for you?

    CCW412 is correct.
    Thank you Sir!

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Paul, I will break it down for you..


    This is the WHAT


    This is the WHERE


    This is the HOW


    Does that clear it up for you, Paul?
    No, you are losing the context. Go back to my post, I posted the whole section, not just parts with key words missing. Let's try this again.

    Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in
    the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an
    honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions
    Here is the whole section that you broke up. To simplify it, it basically means that you need to show documentation of small arms training while serving in the the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard, it goes on to say that proof of that is proof of an honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions.

    It then says

    OR

    a certificate of completion of basic training with a service
    record of successful completion of small arms training
    and certification.
    Once again, I am not military, is there a way I can go through basic training, for example, pass the firearm training and then get washed out or quitr or some other way leave the service? If so, the proof of small arms training is required.

    Once again, an OR between the two.

    Either proof of honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions OR proof of small arms training in basic training.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCW412 View Post
    I am sorry but what was I spouting off that was fiction.....for someone who has no idea what a DD214 is you sure were quick to jump all over me!

    Currently If some one only served 3yrs active duty and get out they are not discharged, they are separated and transferred to the Inactive reserves for 5yrs. So their DD214 might not say honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions. Your actual discharge comes after the total 8yr commitment, Then they will need to show proof of small arms training. A basic training cert might show small arms training, but for the people who have small arms training stated on the DD214, like mine it will work!
    I agree it will work if it has the magic words 'honorable' or 'general under honorable conditions' on it. The small arms certification doesn't matter one iota. The law may be vague in certain areas but it is clear in this area. There is an OR between the proof of discharge and the small arms training proof.

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    Again how was I wrong, the original poster did not say anything about if he had an 'honorable' or 'general under honorable conditions discharge'. I was answering his question with the information he gave. Also did you not read my post........

    Currently If some one only served 3yrs active duty and get out they are not discharged, they are separated and transferred to the Inactive reserves for 5yrs. So their DD214 might not say honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions. Your actual discharge comes after the total 8yr commitment.

    So the proof of small arms training does matter in this case!

    I guess unless you are the all knowing Paul, you should not answer any ones question because he will throw a hissy!

    But really, you should take your own advise!

    We spout crap about stuff we know nothing about as the truth and then others, who think we know what we are talking about it repeat it.
    I am not ex-military so I have no clue what a DD214 is so I can't answer that.
    Last edited by CCW412; 07-19-2011 at 11:49 PM.

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    Regular Member wild boar's Avatar
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    The term Firearm is used in the bill,

    this is a rifle or hand gun, is it not?

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    Sorry, but I have to lean toward agreeing with Paul and littlewolf on this one. My DD214 states #23 - type of separation - discharge. And #24 - character of service - Honorable. I served less than 3 years - #28 - reason for separation - hardship. My father died and left me two small businesses.

    Also under #14 - military education it states - Security Specialist course. It does not break down what was all included in the course. The "or" in the law has some meaning.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Does that clear it up for you, Paul?
    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    No, you are losing the context. Go back to my post, I posted the whole section, not just parts with key words missing. Let's try this again.
    First thing, No, I am not losing the context. You do not get the context. You were flaming people before you had any idea what a DD214 was.

    Second thing, do not phukin accuse me of keeping out key words. They are all there, every single one of them, twice. The first time in whole, then I broke it down into sections to spoon feed it to ya. And you still did not get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Here is the whole section that you broke up. To simplify it, it basically means that you need to show documentation of small arms training while serving in the the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard, it goes on to say that proof of that is proof of an honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions.
    Don’t simplify it, Paul. You cannot simplify something that you cannot comprehend. Again, you were flaming people before you had any idea what a DD214 was. You flamed CCW214 when he was speaking the damn truth. When you read it again, consider this.

    A person that has been dishonorably discharged is a prohibited person and cannot even own a firearm.

    Documentation of the required training, if they recieved it, is on the DD214 they received when they were discharged.

    A member who has not be discharged can use a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.

    A DD214 must have "Documentation of completion of small arms training" AND show an Honarable Discharge or General Discharge (under honorable conditions) to be able to use it to get a WI-CWL. A DD214 with a discharge less than that won't get you a WI-CWL.


    I won’t be accused of being a troll who sits behind a keyboard, so I will see you at the picnic.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 07-20-2011 at 01:29 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCW412 View Post
    Again how was I wrong, the original poster did not say anything about if he had an 'honorable' or 'general under honorable conditions discharge'. I was answering his question with the information he gave. Also did you not read my post........

    Currently If some one only served 3yrs active duty and get out they are not discharged, they are separated and transferred to the Inactive reserves for 5yrs. So their DD214 might not say honorable discharge OR a general discharge under honorable conditions. Your actual discharge comes after the total 8yr commitment.

    So the proof of small arms training does matter in this case!

    I guess unless you are the all knowing Paul, you should not answer any ones question because he will throw a hissy!

    But really, you should take your own advise!
    If you would of said that, I would of said nothing or agreed with you. My contention still stands. Since it says 'or', I can have a proof of honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions OR proof of small arms training. If the DD214 has both, great!!!

    OP said

    I went to this workshop and was told that my DD214 needs to have small arms training written on it in order to apply for CC.Mine doesn't have it on it but i did go thru training in boot camp.I called sara the NRA-ILA person and she said she'd get back to me.Anyone know the answer?
    You said

    That is right, your DD214 has to show small arms training on it. You can also use any certificate (from the military) you may have that shows small arms training....
    That is my only issue.
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 07-20-2011 at 07:09 AM. Reason: Fixed wacky formatting.

  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    A DD214 must have "Documentation of completion of small arms training" AND show an Honarable Discharge or General Discharge (under honorable conditions) to be able to use it to get a WI-CWL. A DD214 with a discharge less than that won't get you a WI-CWL.


    Please provide a citation. The citation you and I used does not have the word AND, it has OR,

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I won’t be accused of being a troll who sits behind a keyboard, so I will see you at the picnic.
    See you there! We can argue over a hotdog! Ketchup or no ketchup?

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