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Thread: My Problem or so-called opinion on CC with permit

  1. #1
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    My Problem or so-called opinion on CC with permit

    Why in this day and age would we need permits to carry? Don't get me wrong I am not against self protection..What bothers me is the data base they are going to collect on gun owners.
    I realize it is not gun registration but it is gun owner registration..The law states that police cannot access the info I believe without cause

    What about agencies that do not have to abide by the Constitution of the USA as in FEMA and the UN
    Are we just slitting our own throats per say as gun owners to gun confiscation under "National Emegergencies" that FEMA can announce at anytime even under financial emergencies

    I do know that states have made laws against gun confiscation but FEMA and the UN do not have to follow these laws as they are immune from USA laws

    What say you????

    Just my simple "Rant of a Lunatic""
    Last edited by musky1011; 07-19-2011 at 05:12 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    That was the huge beef we had when this was being discussed.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Yea.. and even if you keep a couple of "unregistered" firearms around (private party purchase)... I am thinking if they come to get your registered firearms (because you are a registered permit holder), thay ain't gonna stop at just the registered firearms... better have some good hiding places...

    Outdoorsman1
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  4. #4
    McX
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    the problem is the world these days loves to data mine you; they mine your stuff when you buy a gun- though those forms are never supposed to leave the gun store, pay with a credit card it's recorded there too, some states you have to register the gun, then there's the steeeeeeenkin permit matters, if they're not collecting your money, they're collecting your name and other relevant data. all this without a search warrant (in some cases).

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Every time you buy a gun (unless in private sale) there is a NICS check. The government already knows we own guns, and not to sound paranoid, but I'm pretty sure they could track us down from our posts here if they wanted to. There is no real information security once something has been put on a computer like NICS checks. Our only hope is electing the people who share our belief in the RKBA. Not saying they won't spy on us but hopefully they wouldn't try to take our guns.

    Could someone clarify for me how FEMA is not bound by federal laws?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Every year, WI sells about 650,000 gun deer hunting licenses. This doesn't include grouse hunters, duck hunters, turkey hunters. If you've ever bought a hunting license, or taken a hunter safety class through the WI DNR, you're already on "a list".

    Combine all the "lists" in the U.S.A. and start confiscatin. I dare ya. Being on a list with about 80,000,000 other gun owning Americans is not something I fear. Bring it.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Tom Maassen's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if the DOJ announces that a CCW permit was have the serial number for the concealed weapon on it (ie, I am licensed to conceal guns XXXXXXXX and ZZZZZZZ, but I'll be fined if I carry gun AAAAAAA.)

    I realize that the odds of this happening are incredibly small, but the DMV requires licensing for vehicles, and the VIN has to match the registration. But what is to stop it? Has anyone seen anything like this in any of there readings?
    A criminal can have a gun, so why can't I?

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  8. #8
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Maassen View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the DOJ announces that a CCW permit was have the serial number for the concealed weapon on it (ie, I am licensed to conceal guns XXXXXXXX and ZZZZZZZ, but I'll be fined if I carry gun AAAAAAA.)

    I realize that the odds of this happening are incredibly small, but the DMV requires licensing for vehicles, and the VIN has to match the registration. But what is to stop it? Has anyone seen anything like this in any of there readings?
    No.
    Subsection (5) (a)
    (5) APPLICATION AND RENEWAL FORMS. (a) The
    department shall design an application form for use by
    individuals who apply for a license under this section and
    a renewal form for use by individuals applying for
    renewal of a license under sub. (15). The department
    shall complete the design of the application form no later
    than the first day of the 2nd month beginning after the
    effective date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date],
    and shall complete the design of the renewal form no later
    than the first day of the 36th month beginning after the
    effective date of this paragraph .... [LRB inserts date].
    The forms shall require the applicant to provide only his
    or her name, address, date of birth, state identification
    card number, race, sex, height, and eye color
    and shall
    include all of the following:
    1. A statement that the applicant is ineligible for a
    license if sub. (3) (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) applies
    to the applicant.
    2. A statement explaining self-defense and defense
    of others under s. 939.48, with a place for the applicant
    to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read
    and understands the statement.
    3. A statement, with a place for the applicant to sign
    his or her name, to indicate that the applicant has read and
    understands the requirements of this section.
    4. A statement that an applicant may be prosecuted
    if he or she intentionally gives a false answer to any ques-
    tion on the application or intentionally submits a falsified
    document with the application.
    5. A statement of the penalties for intentionally giv-
    ing a false answer to any question on the application or
    intentionally submitting a falsified document with the
    application.
    6. A statement of the places under sub. (16) where a
    licensee is prohibited from carrying a weapon, as well as
    an explanation of the provisions under sub. (15m) and ss.
    943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r. that could limit
    the places where the licensee may carry a weapon, with
    a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate
    that he or she has read and understands the statement.
    (b) The department shall make the forms described
    in this subsection available on the Internet and, upon
    request, by mail.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Tom Maassen's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks! I haven't had a chance to really read through it all, so I appreciate that! I'm waiting for the official classes to be posted, so the instructors can walk us through the do's and do not's of CC.

    I've never been able to interpret law.
    Last edited by Tom Maassen; 07-20-2011 at 09:12 PM.
    A criminal can have a gun, so why can't I?

    Member - Wisconsin Carry, Inc. http://www.wisconsincarry.org
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  10. #10
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    Anybody who has purchased a firearm in the last 30 years already has a checkmark in the "armed" column of their government file. Having a carry permit in WI legally says nothing more than you own a knife, firearm, or electronic weapon somewhere in your house. They already know who is armed and who is not, permit or not!

  11. #11
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Maassen View Post
    ^ Thanks! I haven't had a chance to really read through it all, so I appreciate that! I'm waiting for the official classes to be posted, so the instructors can walk us through the do's and do not's of CC.

    I've never been able to interpret law.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. The hard part is unpacking it to follow all the subsections and references. For instance,
    (2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE. (a) The depart-
    ment shall issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to
    any individual who is not disqualified under sub. (3) and
    who completes the application process specified in sub.
    (7)
    .
    So then you follow the reference to sub. (3):
    Subsection 3
    (3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
    ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
    ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
    of the following applies:
    (a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
    (b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
    from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
    interstate or foreign commerce.
    (c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
    firearm under s. 941.29.
    (d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
    sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) orSubsection 7
    (7) SUBMISSION OF APPLICATION. An individual may
    apply for a license under this section with the department
    by submitting, by mail or other means made available by
    the department, to the department all of the following:
    (a) A completed application in the form prescribed
    under sub. (5) (a).
    (b) A statement that states that the information that
    he or she is providing in the application submitted under
    par. (a) and any document submitted with the application
    is true and complete to the best of his or her knowledge.
    (c) A license fee in an amount, as determined by the
    department by rule, that is equal to the cost of issuing the
    license but does not exceed $37. The department shall
    determine the costs of issuing a license by using a 5-year
    planning period.
    (d) A fee for a background check that is equal to the
    fee charged under s. 175.35 (2i).
    (e) Proof of training as described under sub. (4) (a).
    969.03 (1) (c).
    and sub. (7):
    Subsection 7
    (7) SUBMISSION OF APPLICATION. An individual may
    apply for a license under this section with the department
    by submitting, by mail or other means made available by
    the department, to the department all of the following:
    (a) A completed application in the form prescribed
    under sub. (5) (a).
    (b) A statement that states that the information that
    he or she is providing in the application submitted under
    par. (a) and any document submitted with the application
    is true and complete to the best of his or her knowledge.
    (c) A license fee in an amount, as determined by the
    department by rule, that is equal to the cost of issuing the
    license but does not exceed $37. The department shall
    determine the costs of issuing a license by using a 5-year
    planning period.
    (d) A fee for a background check that is equal to the
    fee charged under s. 175.35 (2i).
    (e) Proof of training as described under sub. (4) (a).
    And keep following the references until they are all laid out (unpacked) and then just start reading them in the order they are presented.... It may take several readings to fully understand what is going on.
    Dave
    45ACP-For when you care enough to send the very best-
    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Maassen View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the DOJ announces that a CCW permit was have the serial number for the concealed weapon on it (ie, I am licensed to conceal guns XXXXXXXX and ZZZZZZZ, but I'll be fined if I carry gun AAAAAAA.)

    I realize that the odds of this happening are incredibly small, but the DMV requires licensing for vehicles, and the VIN has to match the registration. But what is to stop it? Has anyone seen anything like this in any of there readings?
    Nevada requires one to QUALIFY with the gun they are going to carry, but they count ALL revolvers as the same. Brand and model is listed on the permit!
    Calif. I believe requires to serial number of THE gun you are authorized to conceal to be on the permit. But, remember, I don't know anyone who actually HAS a Calif. permit to see for myself.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 07-20-2011 at 10:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member goforlow's Avatar
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    One of my best friends has a California CCW. I will send him a message to inquire about that.
    Wisconsin Carry Inc - Founders Club Member
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    3rd generation US Air Force Veteran

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithman View Post
    Anybody who has purchased a firearm in the last 30 years already has a checkmark in the "armed" column of their government file. Having a carry permit in WI legally says nothing more than you own a knife, firearm, or electronic weapon somewhere in your house. They already know who is armed and who is not, permit or not!

    I beg to differ. You CPL means nothing as to if you have/or have not obtained a weapon. It only says you are legal to carry one concealed, if you do have one to conceal. You can borrow a weapon from a graddad/dad/brother/buddy if you want. You will be legal.

    For many years I had several weapons that had been obtained well before the GCA 1968 ever happened. WA went backwards in 1961 and required a CPL if you wanted to carry concealed (thanks to the Black Panthers in Seattle and Calif.). Before 1961 there was no permit requirment. When I received my first CPL the state had no idea if I had a concealable weapon or not and did not care.

    I am sure it is the same in WI, there will be many people that have weapons that were obtained well before 1968, or inherited from someone that obtained them before 1968...That will not prohibit them from obtaining a CPL, or carrying those weapons...and I'll bet they will not have to disclose what weapons they do have to obtain one.

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    A few years back I got into this discussion with a WWII veteran. I will never forget this statement of his, "There is no force on Earth that can disarm 70 million people if those people choose not to be disarmed." It is said that there are 70 million gun owners in this country. The total number in law enforcement, the military and military reserves combined in the USA is 3 million. I like those odds.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Tom Maassen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Nevada requires one to QUALIFY with the gun they are going to carry, but they count ALL revolvers as the same. Brand and model is listed on the permit!
    Calif. I believe requires to serial number of THE gun you are authorized to conceal to be on the permit. But, remember, I don't know anyone who actually HAS a Calif. permit to see for myself.
    That would suck. Buy a gun, wait the 48 hour cool off before you can pick it up (I think that if you're a CCW holder, that cool off should be waived, but that's a different argument for a different thread), then you have to wait 45 days for your permit to be updated and reissued. Oh, and don't forget the processing fee I'm sure they would tack on to it. Another $50 to reissue the permit you already had......

    Dave did some excellent research, and I thank him for that. California is weird about a lot of things out there, and I had heard similar stories about the gun licensing on the permit but never knew anyone who had one. I'm hoping Dave is right
    A criminal can have a gun, so why can't I?

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  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Cool From my cold dead hands

    The UN can come take my gun....you know what comes next.... FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!!
    Last edited by Schlitz; 07-21-2011 at 08:16 AM.

  18. #18
    McX
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    U.N. never heard of them, does that stand for Usually Nothing?

  19. #19
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musky1011 View Post
    Why in this day and age would we need permits to carry? Don't get me wrong I am not against self protection..What bothers me is the data base they are going to collect on gun owners.
    I realize it is not gun registration but it is gun owner registration..The law states that police cannot access the info I believe without cause

    What about agencies that do not have to abide by the Constitution of the USA as in FEMA and the UN
    Are we just slitting our own throats per say as gun owners to gun confiscation under "National Emegergencies" that FEMA can announce at anytime even under financial emergencies

    I do know that states have made laws against gun confiscation but FEMA and the UN do not have to follow these laws as they are immune from USA laws

    What say you????

    Just my simple "Rant of a Lunatic""

    With your purchase, they got your name on a piece of paper.
    With your purchase, you got to take possession of your gun; so who came out ahead on the deal???

    Thought so...
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    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  20. #20
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    A few years back I got into this discussion with a WWII veteran. I will never forget this statement of his, "There is no force on Earth that can disarm 70 million people if those people choose not to be disarmed." It is said that there are 70 million gun owners in this country. The total number in law enforcement, the military and military reserves combined in the USA is 3 million. I like those odds.
    This is true but....

    The 70 million are not gonna be of much help, if and when "they" come knocking on an individuals door.... and I could be wrong but I would think that the 3 million militay might be a little more well armed (think F22 Rapture) than the average gun owner...

    Just Sayin....

    That being said, I totally agree with the concept that if all 70 million were able to unite at the same moment in time it (we) would be a force to be reckoned with.... Or at the very least, if I had already made the decison to lay down my life in protecting whats mine.... so would I....

    Outdoorsman1
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (18911970) American advertising copywriter

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    An F22 Rapture is of no use when going door to door to confiscate small arms. Confiscating 200 million guns from 70 million people spread from coast to coast is too great a task even for our military should those people resist. Had the Jews of WWII Europe put up an armed resistance, Hitler could not, would not have extended the resources needed to pull off his "Final Solution". Approximately 800 fighters, armed mostly with hand guns tied up over 2,000 German soldiers for a month in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Gun confiscation is a concern but it is also a herculean task.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Tom Maassen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    This is true but....

    The 70 million are not gonna be of much help, if and when "they" come knocking on an individuals door.... and I could be wrong but I would think that the 3 million militay might be a little more well armed (think F22 Rapture) than the average gun owner...
    The British were better armed than the Americans, and look at his that turned out. They were also better trained than most of the Americans in that war.
    Last edited by Tom Maassen; 07-21-2011 at 03:46 PM.
    A criminal can have a gun, so why can't I?

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  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    An F22 Rapture is of no use when going door to door to confiscate small arms. Confiscating 200 million guns from 70 million people spread from coast to coast is too great a task even for our military should those people resist. Had the Jews of WWII Europe put up an armed resistance, Hitler could not, would not have extended the resources needed to pull off his "Final Solution". Approximately 800 fighters, armed mostly with hand guns tied up over 2,000 German soldiers for a month in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Gun confiscation is a concern but it is also a herculean task.
    You don't need to confiscate the firearms, just bomb the people.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Maassen View Post
    The British were better armed than the Americans, and look at his that turned out. They were also better trained than most of the Americans in that war.
    Could it be that coffee breaks are more inspirational, than tea time???

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    "Have you Spanked a leftist today; it's the Right thing to do!!!"


    Within the gates before a man shall go,
    (Fully warily let him watch,)
    Full long let him look about him;
    For little he knows where a foe may lurk,
    And sit in the seats within.

    Havamal (Bellows translation)

  25. #25
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max View Post
    An F22 Rapture is of no use when going door to door to confiscate small arms. Confiscating 200 million guns from 70 million people spread from coast to coast is too great a task even for our military should those people resist. Had the Jews of WWII Europe put up an armed resistance, Hitler could not, would not have extended the resources needed to pull off his "Final Solution". Approximately 800 fighters, armed mostly with hand guns tied up over 2,000 German soldiers for a month in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Gun confiscation is a concern but it is also a herculean task.
    Obvioulsy, I was not talking about using an F22 Rapture to go "door to door to confiscate small arms". I was refering to the government declareing martial law when the 70 million armed citizens decide to revolt. Make no mistake in thinking this could not happen. GW made sure with the "Homeland Security Act" that the president has the authority to declare martial law for any (little) reason he sees fit. Once the SHTF, and martial law is declared, small arms confiscation will be the least of our worries....

    Just Sayin....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 07-21-2011 at 05:37 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (18911970) American advertising copywriter

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