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Thread: Why Talk to Citizens?

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Why Talk to Citizens?

    The mantra here is "Never talk to police".

    So with all the threads here on encounters with spooked or mad antis, uninformed employees, assistant managers on power trips, civilians working crowd control at local events... I ask the question, why talk to them? I mean why talk to them at all? When these people ask if you are law enforcement why answer? When they ask why you have/feel the need to carry a gun, why acknowledge them at all? Why not just keep right on going about your business? If we aren't supposed to do this dance with the Police why do it with everyone else?

    EDIT:

    NOT TALKING ABOUT POSITIVE OR POLICE ENCOUNTERS
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 12:22 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Education

    To educate those who are unaware of our rights. Also, they can't arrest you on some trumped up charge because they don't like you carrying, although they may call the police if they get nervous enough.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I take it as a chance to inform people who might not otherwise know that OC is legal. In all my time interacting with fellow citizens, I have had 1 negative encounter balanced with more than 30 positive encounters. I'll keep talking as long as they'll keep listening.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsgeek View Post
    To educate those who are unaware of our rights. Also, they can't arrest you on some trumped up charge because they don't like you carrying, although they may call the police if they get nervous enough.
    This.

    And because, until you engage the officer who is trying to engage you, you can't really know if he has RAS. If he has gotten a call that someone matching your description just robbed the Wal-Mart you are walking out of, using a firearm like the one on your hip, then he has a pile of RAS. Simply walking away without acknowledging the officer's vain attempt to stop you could result in more physical (and very legal) tactics to stop you from leaving.

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    The primary difference is LEO's conducting investigations are seeking to use any word spoken to them as evidence of a crime. Sometimes words are twisted and taken out of context.

    Private citizens or agents of companies are not conducting the same type of activity. They may be seeking some sort of victory for their own mind, but that doesn't usually involve handcuffs (usually) and expensive courtroom proceedings.

  6. #6
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    this.

    And because, until you engage the officer who is trying to engage you, you can't really know if he has ras.
    this thread is not about interacting with the police

    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeV View Post

    Private citizens or agents of companies are not conducting the same type of activity. They may be seeking some sort of victory for their own mind, but that doesn't usually involve handcuffs (usually) and expensive courtroom proceedings.
    I agree totally so it begs the question in my mind... Then why talk to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I take it as a chance to inform people who might not otherwise know that OC is legal. In all my time interacting with fellow citizens, I have had 1 negative encounter balanced with more than 30 positive encounters. I'll keep talking as long as they'll keep listening.
    Not talking about positive encounters, made a small correction in the OP. Did you educate in the negative encounter? Why did you feel compelled to engage in the negative encounter? Not an attack, I would like to hear your thought process on that one.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 12:21 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    [size=5][color="#ff0000"]

    Not talking about positive encounters, made a small correction in the OP. Did you educate in the negative encounter? Why did you feel compelled to engage in the negative encounter? Not an attack, I would like to hear your thought process on that one.
    I did educate in the negative encounter. A woman came up to me and said I should not carry at all, especially not openly. She gave the typical anti reasons why. I took a little time to explain the law and why I carry. We had a decent discussion where she seemed to understand my reasoning. I won't say I changed the person's mind but perhaps I at least planted a seed of thought in their head. When I first met my wife she was about as anti as they come, now she's got her own gun and goes shooting. I guess that led me to believe it's worth it to talk to anyone who will listen.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 07-20-2011 at 01:06 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Why talk to citizens?

    First of all, you are perpetuating the "us" vs "them" dichotomy by using the word "citizen". Cops, store managers, folks wearing uniforms hired to stand around someone's private propertry to tell people where they can or cannot stand/sit/spit at a performance or other event are all citizens underneath the other label you are slapping on them.

    Second, I try to be polite. I also try to educate folks who are encumbered with incorrect information. And I figure that if they find out that folks toting guns lawfully and peaceably are polite and well-informed about the actual law, as opposed to what they "think" it is, they might be less worried about us as a group, or at least about me as an individual.

    No, I'm not suggesting everybody go buttonhole strangers on the street and "set them straight". But even if we part ways agreeing to disagree (and me agreeing that they are dumber than a box of rocks and irrationally prejudiced to boot) at least that happens in a polite manner and I get to say "I tried".

    All you do by walking away and ignoring them is give them ammunition to fuel their prejudices and mistaken impressions about people who carry firearms.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    ... are all citizens underneath the other label you are slapping on them.
    uhm, say what?





    First of all it's "Citizens".

    As in the Citizens vs. the Police.

    As in "why talk to citizens vs. why talk to cops".



    ...



    But even if we part ways agreeing to disagree (and me agreeing that they are dumber than a box of rocks and irrationally prejudiced to boot) at least that happens in a polite manner and I get to say "I tried"
    Wouldn't this be considered a "positive encounter" and in no way what the OP is about? But hey, thanks for actually reading what I posted. No, ,really. {sarcasm off}
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 03:40 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    this thread is not about interacting with the police
    I think he was trying to give you the difference between why he talks to citizens and not police.... that's kind of what you made this thread feel like.

    Why Talk to Citizens?

    The mantra here is "Never talk to police".

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    When average citizens have the ability to arrest me and charge me with a crime then I won't talk to them about carrying while carrying. But the difference between a cop and an average citizen is the power the cop has over you to (rightly or wrongly) make your life hell.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    I think he was trying to give you the difference between why he talks to citizens and not police.... that's kind of what you made this thread feel like.
    I specifically said in my opening post....

    ...encounters with spooked or mad antis, uninformed employees, assistant managers on power trips, civilians working crowd control at local events.
    As in....

    ...an encounter with someone (other than a cop) pissed off, uninformed, and on a power trip. And they are demanding to know why you are OCing and IF you are LEO. Like if an assistant manager at your favorite OC friendly box store confronts you. Like a guy in a cheap "security" tee and a walkie-talkie at the state fair where you know OC is legal confronts you. Like a crazy old anti-2a lady confronting you at a parade as you OC.

    I also posted in giant letters this is not about the police.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 04:24 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sense a sort of challenging attitude, might just be my perception though.

    For myself, I consider each encounter as defined here to be an opportunity to educate if in no other way than to show that I cannot be provoked unreasonably and will maintain the high ground.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Sense a sort of challenging attitude, might just be my perception though.
    I'm asking a very specific question about a very specific scenario. I was just trying to clarify. Apparently I lack the ability to communicate my question.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Apparently I lack the ability to communicate my question.
    ^ This.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    ^ This.
    No kidding.

    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    My fellow citizens, regardless of their profession, can not learn anything new/different if the information is not presented to them. This is a truism in kindergarten as it is on a sidewalk.
    You can't educate someone who thinks they are right. Won't listen. Is pissed, on a power trip, vindictive, and just plain hates guns and doesn't care what the law is. If we could there would be no threads about an OCer getting kicked out of a store, bank, or event where it is actually okay to OC. Kicked out by some assistant manager, employee, or rent-a-cop. Because the OCer would just set them straight with a brief conversation and move on with his/her day... Right? In reality this does not seem to happen. At least not judging by the posts here. And if that is the case then why talk to them in the first place? Answer their questions?
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 05:21 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Why Talk to Citizens?
    Because we're great listeners?
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-20-2011 at 05:26 PM.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Because we're great listeners?
    I see what you did there.....

    Outdoorsman1
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I think your OP is a little confusing as it gives 2 definitions of your intened topic of discusion.

    1.)
    Why Talk to Citizens?
    2.)
    spooked or mad antis, uninformed employees, assistant managers on power trips, civilians working crowd control at local events... I ask the question, why talk to them?
    Although the people in the second discription do qualify as "Citizens" they are more than that by thier very discription. As such, "Citizens" are not "spooked or mad antis, uninformed employees, assistant managers on power trips, civilians working crowd control at local events".

    To answer both your references,

    I talk to Citizens #1 to inform and educate and only if spoken to first.
    I (might) talk to citizens #2 with a either a slight sarcastic answer or just a smile as I walk away with the intended affect of letting them know their complaints, attitude, (whatever), mean nothing to me and will have no effect on me other than a little humor....

    Outdoorsman1

    ETA: Long time no see.. I hope you are doing well.
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 07-20-2011 at 05:55 PM. Reason: Add Info
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    ...I also posted in giant letters this is not about the police.
    Yeah, on ninja edit.

    Moving on.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Please do and thank you. I would not have had to edit my OP if you had actually read it. "Ninja Edit". Laughable considering I have "EDIT" in big letters...


    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I think your OP is a little confusing as it gives 2 definitions of your intened topic of discusion.


    I talk to Citizens #1 to inform and educate and only if spoken to first.
    I (might) talk to citizens #2 with a either a slight sarcastic answer or just a smile as I walk away with the intended affect of letting them know their complaints, attitude, (whatever), mean nothing to me and will have no effect on me other than a little humor....
    "Citizen" to make clear as mud I wasn't talking about the police. I LIKE the word "citizen".


    Addressing your highlighted answer...

    They also have no authority to stop me and demand explanations and answers. So why do we answer. That was really my only question. Thank you for actually take the time to read my OP. Thanks for the answer.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 07-20-2011 at 06:56 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Why go out in public when you can order online?

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Sometimes, you can't tell someone is raving nutsoid until you're already interacting.
    Like others, I'd try to be polite & take what looks like an opportunity to answer questions, educate.
    But once you reach the realization that the person is raving nutsoid, disengage ASAP & walk away with no further waste of energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    No kidding.



    You can't educate someone who thinks they are right. Won't listen. Is pissed, on a power trip, vindictive, and just plain hates guns and doesn't care what the law is. If we could there would be no threads about an OCer getting kicked out of a store, bank, or event where it is actually okay to OC. Kicked out by some assistant manager, employee, or rent-a-cop. Because the OCer would just set them straight with a brief conversation and move on with his/her day... Right? In reality this does not seem to happen. At least not judging by the posts here. And if that is the case then why talk to them in the first place? Answer their questions?
    And while the initial approach we see from "them" may indicate how the encounter MAY progress until we make at least one CIVIL attempt to converse with them in a conversation. If they allow a conversation, simple back and forth communication then great --- Carry on! IF they don't allow a civil conversation then bid them adieu and be on your way having proved to yourself that it is unwise to cast your pearls before swine or attempt to teach a pig to talk!
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 07-21-2011 at 12:01 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I see the point. If the person comes up to you, say in a store, and asks "are you a cop/LEO?" it may be in your best interest to ignore them, tell them to move along, or defuse the issue rather than answering their question, which they really have no right to know. Say you're off-duty LEO, you have a right to privacy and a need perhaps not to be outed to just anyone. Not all LEOs carry off duty.

    If the inquiry seems harmless and maybe even friendly, you could turn it around and ask a question. 'Are you store employee? Are you a manager, here?' Maybe they'll say 'I'm just a private citizen'. Your answer is obvious. "I'm also a private citizen not on duty", and without implying you are a cop, defuse the question.

    Now, people OC for many reasons. The ones who do it to educate and to enforce and apply 2A rights feel free to answer with pamphlets and brochures and informative lessons. Those who do so for other, more personal reasons, should have the right not to be bothered. If someone comes up and says 'Sir, do YOU wear your seatbelt?' do you give them a friendly lesson in preventative auto safety? I doubt it. You'd probably think 'kook' and move on after saying 'go bother someone else, please, I'm busy'.

    Also, if you're alone, then it's another story. I'd be more prone if I was OC-ing and alone to answer a question. But since there's a risk of stirring up trouble, if I was with a friend, loved one or something, I'd be more prone to shrug the guy off not wanting to have my friend witness police being called.

    So, IMO, it's within one's rights to politely ignore such inquiries - it certainly is a personal thing, one's business, profession, privacy.

    $.02
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