OC-moto450r
Guest
2A
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Outside Wal-Mart LEO Encounter
- Thread starter the_hustleman
- Start date
EVERYONE:
This is a Perfect Example of Why it is too Bad that Senate Bill 102 did NOT Pass during This Past Legislative Session!
Senate Bill 102 would have Removed The Requirement to Present a Georgia Weapons Carry License upon Demand to a Peace Officer, Effectively Turning Georgia into a 'Honor System', of Sorts, whenever a Peace Officer would otherwise like to make a Determination as to whether or not a Person is a License Holder.
The Language of that Senate Bill that would have done that is Located here under Line 553 through Line 556: http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=32793
aadvark
This is a Perfect Example of Why it is too Bad that Senate Bill 102 did NOT Pass during This Past Legislative Session!
Senate Bill 102 would have Removed The Requirement to Present a Georgia Weapons Carry License upon Demand to a Peace Officer, Effectively Turning Georgia into a 'Honor System', of Sorts, whenever a Peace Officer would otherwise like to make a Determination as to whether or not a Person is a License Holder.
The Language of that Senate Bill that would have done that is Located here under Line 553 through Line 556: http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/en-US/display.aspx?Legislation=32793
aadvark
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ComradeV
Campaign Veteran
It's amazing how high compliance rates are with most honour systems.
Kingfish
Regular Member
In Georgia carrying a firearm is NOT a crime. Not possessing a license to carry the firearm is an element of the crime of carrying without a license. What that means is that the state must prove you do not have a license. The officer cannot detain you or demand to see a permit because he has no RAS to believe you have, are or are going to commit a crime.
In Georgia before SB308 a firearm license was a DEFENSE to the crime of carrying a concealed weapon but only when concealed. That is no more. CC is now the same as OC (completely legal activity unless you don't have a license.) In TN, the carrying of a firearm CC or OC is a crime and having a permit is a defense to that crime. Very different laws from state to state.
The OP did not need to show the firearms license but I support his decision to do so to avoid the ride.
jahwarrior
Member
that's interesting. in PA, carrying a firearm concealed is a felony. having a license is an exception to the law, which sounds like the opposite of what you're saying. basically, in PA, if a LEO suspects you have a concealed firearm, he can demand to see a license to make sure you aren't committing a felony. of course, open carry is legal, except on Philly; there, we need to have a license to carry openly or concealed.
onestar 50
Regular Member
I know in Michigan before they changes their new cps law that Printing was illegal here.
ixtow
Founder's Club Member
If you feel imposed upon enough to ask, you already know the answer. That feeling of being imposed upon, that is being detained.
If you ask, you'll never get a straight answer anyway. You'll stand there being detained, asking if you are being detained... How useful is that?
Ask "WHY am I being detained." now you have made it clear that detainement is already taking place. And it is. If you feel so imposed upon, then you are. That's how it works. I've got piles of Case Law to tell you so. It is about weather YOU feel like you are free to go, or not. The Officer's acknowledgement or announcement of it is irrelevant. You don't need his approval or disapproval. Only his actions imposing upon you.
Again, if you feel uncomfortable enough that you need to ask, YOU ALREADY KNOW.
When you ask "WHY am I being detained?" The Officer better have RAS/PC, or he better say "Oh, you're not being detained!" and off you go...
If you still get the silent treatment, no answer, then the Officer didn't catch the key words. You ARE being detained becasue YOU said you were. Don't walk away while being detained. Let him illegally detain you withoout giving a reason. He probbaly won't be able to think of one in court, either. Crucify the bastard later if you like. But stand there and take it.
So far, I've been told "Oh, you're not being detained!" and then I see their sad face as they realize what just happened and I walk away.
Kingfish
Regular Member
Correct. Sound like GA and PA used to be the same as far as carrying concealed was a crime and a license could be demanded but OC is not a crime (though in GA lack of having one while carrying is the crime.) Now OC and CC are legal with a license in GA but if the officer has RAS or PC that you don't have one, he could detain but cannot for just carrying as it is a completely legal activity.
Walt_Kowalski
Regular Member
Can someone upload the file to youtube, so I can hear it without having to download who knows what virus infested crap to get it to play. 
papa bear
Regular Member
Even though the officer was not doing the right thing. i do commend his composer. after seeing so many civilian LEOs going off when someone stands up to them, he actually sounded reasonable
THE_HUSTLEMAN, what do you think he would done if you had been open carrying ?
THE_HUSTLEMAN, what do you think he would done if you had been open carrying ?
scottw1979
New member
If you have a Georgia Firearms license then it doesn't have a picture, so he had every right to ask for your driver's license to verify it was your license and not stolen/lost from another person. After all you had to show your driver's license to obtain the carrying permit to begin with.
autosurgeon
Regular Member
Not true printing has never been a crime in MI and OC has always been legal. Period.
Sent from my Droid Flipside using Tapatalk
the_hustleman
Regular Member
Well the law here in georgia doesn't say I have to show it. If I did, I would have gone to jail.
*swyped from the evo so excuse any typos*
scottw1979
New member
This day and time any one carrying a weapon is "reasonable and articulable suspispicion". Sad, but true. I have a permit as well and use it. I would have no promblem showing my permit AND my photo ID to a LEO. Sounds like to me ya'll are just trying to confrontational when ther is really no need.
scottw1979
New member
Do you not have to show your driver's license when you go through a police check point they randomly put up in the road some where? There is no probable cause there either, do you refuse then? I doubt it. Simply proving your identity does not fall under "search and seizure".
MKEgal
Regular Member
First off, welcome to the forum (since nobody else has remembered their manners yet)...
Second, do some reading.
There are quite a few threads across OCDO dealing with "stop & identify" statutes, which vary from state to state.
Not unless they have RAS [reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime], or your state has (an unconsitutional) law that says you must provide ID (or even just tell an officer your name & address) upon demand.
And generally, no, people who value their rights don't provide ID on demand, unless the officers can state their RAS, whether driving or carrying.
In fact, IIRC it was Delaware v. Prouse where the Court ruled that stopping a car for the sole purpose of checking for a valid permit is unreasonable search & seizure. Logically, the same applies to someone carrying, whether it requires a permit or (especially) if it doesn't.
(BTW, RAS is a lower standard than PC. They can stop you unconsensually w/ RAS, but need PC to arrest.)
Again, do some reading. Navy gave you some good starting places.
Absent RAS, the police may request your name, etc., and you might decide to waive your rights against unreasonable/unwarranted search & seizure as well as self-incrimination & hand over your gov't-issued identity document. Entirely your decision.
But police can't demand it w/o RAS, & even then you have the right to remain silent, so use it.
Go onto YouTube & search for the "don't talk to cops" videos.
They're about an hour long, total, & probably some of the most useful, well-spent time you will ever have.
The first half of the lecture is done at warp speed by a lawyer explaining WHY you should take full advantage of your right to remain silent, the second half slightly slower by a law student who is also a cop, who basically says "yeah, what he said: don't talk to cops", while giving examples of how police work a suspect.
Second, do some reading.
There are quite a few threads across OCDO dealing with "stop & identify" statutes, which vary from state to state.
Generally, no, you don't have to.scottw1979 said:
Not unless they have RAS [reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime], or your state has (an unconsitutional) law that says you must provide ID (or even just tell an officer your name & address) upon demand.
And generally, no, people who value their rights don't provide ID on demand, unless the officers can state their RAS, whether driving or carrying.
In fact, IIRC it was Delaware v. Prouse where the Court ruled that stopping a car for the sole purpose of checking for a valid permit is unreasonable search & seizure. Logically, the same applies to someone carrying, whether it requires a permit or (especially) if it doesn't.
(BTW, RAS is a lower standard than PC. They can stop you unconsensually w/ RAS, but need PC to arrest.)
Yes, it does.
Again, do some reading. Navy gave you some good starting places.
Absent RAS, the police may request your name, etc., and you might decide to waive your rights against unreasonable/unwarranted search & seizure as well as self-incrimination & hand over your gov't-issued identity document. Entirely your decision.
But police can't demand it w/o RAS, & even then you have the right to remain silent, so use it.
Go onto YouTube & search for the "don't talk to cops" videos.
They're about an hour long, total, & probably some of the most useful, well-spent time you will ever have.
The first half of the lecture is done at warp speed by a lawyer explaining WHY you should take full advantage of your right to remain silent, the second half slightly slower by a law student who is also a cop, who basically says "yeah, what he said: don't talk to cops", while giving examples of how police work a suspect.
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M
McX
Guest
9 Micky Mouse
Regular Member
This is stupid now what if the person had a license that had reciprocity with GA then what?
Kingfish
Regular Member
Please study
THE STATE v. JONES, 289 Ga. App. 176 (2008)
http://www.georgiapacking.org/caselaw/statevjones.htm
This is the GEORGIA case that shows that the mere presence of a firearm is NOT RAS.
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scottw1979
New member
I stand corrected. I'm all for the 2nd and 4th amendment. I'm on here to learn and contribute when I can. I have learned from all this and will not be so forthcoming to surrender my ID or anything else in the future.
Thank You everyone for the information, love reading the stuff evryone has to say.
Thank You everyone for the information, love reading the stuff evryone has to say.