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Thread: The City of Grand Rapids is Violating Preemption, as well...

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    The City of Grand Rapids is Violating Preemption, as well...

    The City of Grand Rapids has Two Ordinances which are Statutorily Unenforceable under Michigan Codified Law MCL 123.1102.

    Those Two Ordinances are: 9.173 AND 9.174.

    The Ordinances can be Viewed here: http://library.municode.com/index.as...eName=Michigan

    As We Know..., in Michigan, NO License or Permit is Needed for Open Carry, and, Apparently, Grand Rapids Prohibits Open Carry under both of Those Illegal Ordinances so Citied.

    The Remedy for This Problem could be as Simple as Adding to Sub-Section (5) of Grand Rapids Code 9.175 The Following Verbiage: ' ...Except as Provided for under Michigan Law...,', which; such Sub-Section Currently Stands Reserved.

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    GR is acting out, they have had several gang bangers go postal in several of their big Yahoo down town GR fests.... So I consider this an (illegal) knee jerk...
    Last edited by Sheldon; 07-20-2011 at 03:26 PM.

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    sheldon:

    Does Grand Rapids have a Gang Problem?

    I could NOT Imangine any Major Crime Problem in Michigan beyond The Limits of either: 1. Detroit, OR 2. Flint.

    aadvark

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    GR is acting out, they have had several gang bangers go postal in several of their big Yahoo down town GR fests.... So I consider this an (illegal) knee jerk...
    These are old ordinances, not new.

    Rockford and GR's have been notified that these ordinances are unlawful in the past. Someone recently was still working with Rockford.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I have emailed them in the past and all I ever get is we are looking into it. It will take people from GR and Rockford attending meeting s to get anything changed IMOP
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    IMO gang bangers should be shot on sight.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    IMO gang bangers should be shot on sight.
    "I don't like repeat offenders; I like dead offenders." Ted Nugent
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    The person has been issued a valid license to do so as provided by Act 372 of the Michigan Public Acts of 1927, as amended (MCL 28.421 et seq.
    It would seem to me that your license to purchase OR your CPL would cover this, but obviously a person to person sale would not have the License to purchase, and does not require a CPL...

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    It would seem to me that your license to purchase OR your CPL would cover this, but obviously a person to person sale would not have the License to purchase, and does not require a CPL...
    Yes it does.....
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    IMO gang bangers should be shot on sight.
    Humm we could hold a "Who's the top BA Gang" party in a nice big field some place in the country for them, free ammo, knives and ball bats, make it a 24 hour event, then jail the survivor.....
    Last edited by Sheldon; 07-21-2011 at 12:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Humm we could hold a "Who's the top BA Gang" party in a nice big field some place in the country for them, free ammo, knives and ball bats, make it a 24 hour event, then jail the survivor.....
    We already have places like that in Michigan, they're called Flint and Detriot. The free items you mentioned are unintentionally provided by folks who were in legal possession of them at one time.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd shooter View Post
    It would seem to me that your license to purchase, or your CPL would cover this
    I agree.

    The GR ord. states:

    No person shall carry any firearm upon his or her person in any public street, alley or other place open to the public in the City of Grand Rapids unless:

    (1) The person has been issued a valid license to do so as provided by Act 372 of Michigan Public Acts of 1927, as amended (MCL 28.421 et seq.), or

    . . .
    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Et+Seq.


    et seq. (et seek) n. abbreviation for the Latin phrase et sequentes meaning "and the following." It is commonly used by lawyers to include numbered lists, pages or sections after the first number is stated, as in "the rules of the road are found in Vehicle Code Section 1204, et seq."
    So the ord. says you cannot blah blah blah unless you have a valid license as provided in Act 372 of 1927 which is MCL 28.241 and the MCLs following .241 within Act 372.

    Two of the MCLs in Act 372 that follows .241 are .242 and .425b which are the state's laws on obtaining a License to Purchase/Possess/Carry and obtaining a CPL, respectively.

    So, anybody that is legally in possession of a pistol by either having gotten a License to Purchase/Possess/Carry or having obtained a CPL is exempt from this ord.

    Just my non-lawyerly take.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 07-21-2011 at 01:57 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Greyh Seer's Avatar
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    This means that someone who is visiting from another state who doesn't need to register their firearm would be breaking the law in GR by OCing. I still believe this law violates state preemption...

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greyh Seer View Post
    This means that someone who is visiting from another state who doesn't need to register their firearm would be breaking the law in GR by OCing. I still believe this law violates state preemption...
    Try again. Both MCL 28.422 and MCL 28.432, both of which are contained within the "et seq," provide exemptions to people from out of state.

    28.422
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:

    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.

    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).

    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.

    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.

    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    28.432
    28.432 Inapplicability of MCL 28.422; amendatory act as “Janet Kukuk act”.

    Sec. 12.

    (1) Section 2 does not apply to any of the following:

    . . .

    (f) A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
    Basically anybody who is legally in possession of their pistol is exempted from this ord. The only people it is prohibiting are people who are illegally in possession of a firearm.

    This ord. meets the letter of the law.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 07-21-2011 at 02:32 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    ...
    Last edited by Bronson; 07-21-2011 at 02:47 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Greyh Seer's Avatar
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    I think I may have been miss-reading this law for a while. I thought that you could carry an unregistered pistol in MI openly if you were a visiting non-resident without any paperwork... So if:

    1. I am not a resident of MI
    2. I do not have a permit from my home state
    3. I do not have a CPL

    then I cannot OC a pistol in MI?


    Also, if the above is true, what about long-arms. I belive the GR law bans all firearms, not just pistols? Then wouldn't this law still preempt MI firearm law?

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    EVERYONE:

    Lets NOT Miss The Point.

    Open Carry in Michigan in Legal..., and for more than just Handguns, although I am Aware of The Rules of This Forum.

    Michigan Codified Law 123.1102 is Clear, and These Ordinances Enacted and Enforced by Grand Rapids are in Violation.

    Furthermore, Grand Rapids City Public Bus Service, The Rapid, Prohibits Firearms and Ammunition, and, again..., another Violation of The Michigan Codified Laws.

    These Illegal and Unlawful Ordiannces have to Stop, for Everyone, whether from Michigan, or not.

    aadvark

    *** The Rapid Bus Website has The Following about NO Firearms, Rule No. 2: http://www.ridetherapid.org/ride/rules ***

    *** IF..., and only IF..., The Rapid Bus System would Remove The Words '... of any Kind', then, Their Rule would be Consistent with Michigan Law, IF, further, They were to Define Weapon as any Device Enumerated under Michigan Codified Law 750.224. ***

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Greyh Seer;1578595]I think I may have been miss-reading this law for a while. I thought that you could carry an unregistered pistol in MI openly if you were a visiting non-resident without any paperwork... So if:

    1. I am not a resident of MI
    2. I do not have a permit from my home state
    3. I do not have a CPL

    then I cannot OC a pistol in MI?


    Also, if the above is true, what about long-arms. I belive the GR law bans all firearms, not just pistols? Then wouldn't this law still preempt MI firearm law?[/QUOTE

    If you are a non resident with no permit from any state you may not open carry. If you have a non resident cary permit and are a non resident you may open carry only in MI.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    EVERYONE:

    Lets NOT Miss The Point.

    Open Carry in Michigan in Legal..., and for more than just Handguns, although I am Aware of The Rules of This Forum.
    You're right. I got hung up on pistols and forgot about LGOC. In regards to that then I would agree that this ord. is in violation of 123.1101

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=xmanhockey7;1578691]
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyh Seer View Post
    If you are a non resident with no permit from any state you may not open carry.
    Just clarifying.

    The permit does NOT have to be a concealed weapon permit. IL residents cannot get a resident concealed weapon permit but they can get a Firearm Owner's I.D. (FOID). This satisfies the non-resident requirements in 28.422 (cited in a previous post) and would allow a IL resident to OC their pistol in MI under the same regulations as a MI resident that does NOT have a CPL.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Get2DahChopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    EVERYONE:

    Lets NOT Miss The Point.

    Open Carry in Michigan in Legal..., and for more than just Handguns, although I am Aware of The Rules of This Forum.

    Michigan Codified Law 123.1102 is Clear, and These Ordinances Enacted and Enforced by Grand Rapids are in Violation.

    Furthermore, Grand Rapids City Public Bus Service, The Rapid, Prohibits Firearms and Ammunition, and, again..., another Violation of The Michigan Codified Laws.

    These Illegal and Unlawful Ordiannces have to Stop, for Everyone, whether from Michigan, or not.

    aadvark

    *** The Rapid Bus Website has The Following about NO Firearms, Rule No. 2: http://www.ridetherapid.org/ride/rules ***

    *** IF..., and only IF..., The Rapid Bus System would Remove The Words '... of any Kind', then, Their Rule would be Consistent with Michigan Law, IF, further, They were to Define Weapon as any Device Enumerated under Michigan Codified Law 750.224. ***
    Hey maybe we could organize a protest like the breast feeding moms did in detroit?
    http://www.thenewsherald.com/article...4361671363.txt Seriously, I'd love to see a bus driver try to tell 30 paying customers to "get lost" because they value their personal safety and civil rights?

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    Get2DahChopper:

    Warren had Their Own Problems with Michigan Codified Law 123.1102 of Act 319 of 1990.

    These Concerns, and Their Resolution, are Viewable here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXuvCfzBH_I

    Fortunately, though, after a Contentious Vote, Those Unlawful Ordinances were also Removed.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 07-22-2011 at 11:40 AM.

  23. #23
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Almost all the local units of government around GR have illegal ordinances. The ones I have personally dealt with, eg GR at New Years, know they are illegal and will not enforce. I personally have written to at least 4 of the commissions/ boards but they continue to ignore the requests to change. I believe that part of the issue is that there really aren't that many OCers or CCers in the area... Kent County has the lowest rate in the state...1.8% as quoted in the GR press. Look at the comments on this and other websites regarding GR giving Licenses To Purchase to see what it is like here...and I am still waiting for my cpl renewal that was handed in on May 3. Sigh... luckily, the receipt in hand means I can carry for another 180 days.

    BTW, the exceptions listed in the ordinances seemingly don't allow long guns to be possessed, as there is no permit for those.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    [QUOTE=xmanhockey7;1578691]
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyh Seer View Post
    I think I may have been miss-reading this law for a while. I thought that you could carry an unregistered pistol in MI openly if you were a visiting non-resident without any paperwork... So if:

    1. I am not a resident of MI
    2. I do not have a permit from my home state
    3. I do not have a CPL

    then I cannot OC a pistol in MI?


    Also, if the above is true, what about long-arms. I belive the GR law bans all firearms, not just pistols? Then wouldn't this law still preempt MI firearm law?[/QUOTE

    If you are a non resident with no permit from any state you may not open carry. If you have a non resident cary permit and are a non resident you may open carry only in MI.
    Xman,

    I am a resident of Indiana. I moved here from Michigan in 1986, and return to visit family and friends. After I received my Indiana License To Carry Handgun, I contacted the Michigan State Police asking that since I have a valid state issued handgun license (or permit if you prefer) to carry my handgun, and I am not a resident of Michigan, would I be required to openly carry my handgun since I do not qualify to have a Michigan Concealed Pistol License. The response I got from the Michigan State Police was that as long as my handgun license was vaild, the State of Michigan would honor it as a Michigan CPL and I could carry openly or concealed with the exception of the pistol free zones under Michigan law. I'm sorry I didn't keep that email now. A side note, the Indiana LTCH does not specify in what manner we carry our handguns. As long as we have that piece of paper from the state, we can carry openly or concealed.

    Brian

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=BGordon42;1579548]
    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post

    Xman,

    I am a resident of Indiana. I moved here from Michigan in 1986, and return to visit family and friends. After I received my Indiana License To Carry Handgun, I contacted the Michigan State Police asking that since I have a valid state issued handgun license (or permit if you prefer) to carry my handgun, and I am not a resident of Michigan, would I be required to openly carry my handgun since I do not qualify to have a Michigan Concealed Pistol License. The response I got from the Michigan State Police was that as long as my handgun license was vaild, the State of Michigan would honor it as a Michigan CPL and I could carry openly or concealed with the exception of the pistol free zones under Michigan law. I'm sorry I didn't keep that email now. A side note, the Indiana LTCH does not specify in what manner we carry our handguns. As long as we have that piece of paper from the state, we can carry openly or concealed.

    That is correct.

    Brian
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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