City of Ferndale- do they just like messing with people?

kryptonian said:

what incident was possibly on his record to give them cause to deny??? had to be something. nothing on his record would be impossible for them to defend in court. nothing against your friend but i'm the only one i read that wonders what he could have lurking in his past.

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Anything lurking in his past would have been uncovered at the county gun board review of his application. The county found nothing but the city did? I doubt it. Sounds like they were jerking the guy around. I'll bet they do it to everyone.

Food for thought:

kryptonian said:

what incident was possibly on his record to give them cause to deny??? had to be something. nothing on his record would be impossible for them to defend in court. nothing against your friend but i'm the only one i read that wonders what he could have lurking in his past.

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Because MI gun law is so weak in regards to police accountability, some PD's [if they choose so] can and do abuse based on if they like the person or not. You mention court. Most people are not willing to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer to force the police to issue a purchase permit. As to the person being talked about here, if Ferndale does really have it in for him - he may find that when he turns in a RI-60 that they do not register it correctly. So if he ever does get stopped with a newer pistol that has not been registered to him and in the "SYSTEM" for some time he could get jammed up.

I can tell from your posts kryptonian you were an honest cop. Now put on the "what if I wasn't hat / how could I mess with this guy hat" & you can see where the "FUN" can begin for a citizen who has done nothing wrong other than to be deemed unworthy by a corrupt officer(s). Thankfully most PD's are above this kind of pettiness but there are a few around that are not. I think we may have identified another one of them here.

I smell a FERNDALE OC PICNIC event brewing

http://ferndale.patch.com/articles/ferndale-boasts-14-parks-each-with-a-different-story

My vote is for Martin Road park [grills / playground for kids / bathrooms etc...]

kryptonian said:

what incident was possibly on his record to give them cause to deny??? had to be something. nothing on his record would be impossible for them to defend in court. nothing against your friend but i'm the only one i read that wonders what he could have lurking in his past.

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he had one alcohol related incident that was old enough past the number of years that would have disqualified him.

kubel said:

Anything lurking in his past would have been uncovered at the county gun board review of his application. The county found nothing but the city did? I doubt it. Sounds like they were jerking the guy around. I'll bet they do it to everyone.

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exactly.

kryptonian said:

what incident was possibly on his record to give them cause to deny??? had to be something. nothing on his record would be impossible for them to defend in court. nothing against your friend but i'm the only one i read that wonders what he could have lurking in his past.

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May be nothing.

This is what I have been told by a few PD in this regard. They have a lot of power in this regard. A person can have a clean BG check and be denied. You see they have their own data base that is double super secret. So if a resident is a gadfly and complains about things, in particular about the PD they get denied. If the resident has had run-ins with the PD with no arrest, etc.. they get denied. For example one denied a resident because the resident's mom didn't want her son to have a gun. They will use any excuse they want.

There is no legal criteria for denials, it's all discretionary. The only recourse is to hire an attorney and challenge them, and most people can't afford that. I would recommend a state rep be contacted and let them pressure the local PD. That is, if the state rep is pro-gun.

We need to abolish local control of purchase permits, there is too much abuse.

Venator said:

May be nothing.

This is what I have been told by a few PD in this regard. They have a lot of power in this regard. A person can have a clean BG check and be denied. You see they have their own data base that is double super secret. So if a resident is a gadfly and complains about things, in particular about the PD they get denied. If the resident has had run-ins with the PD with no arrest, etc.. they get denied. For example one denied a resident because the resident's mom didn't want her son to have a gun. Thye will use any excuse they want.

There is no legal criteria for denials, it's all discretionary. The only recourse is to hire an attorney and challenge them, and most people can't afford that. I would recommend a state rep be contacted and let them pressure the local PD. That is, if the state rep is pro-gun.

We need to abolish local control of purchase permits, there is too much abuse.

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This last statement got me thinking. I don't know if anyone else has thought about it this way, but wouldn't the local PD's having so much discretion in regards to issuing PP's (MCL 28.422(3)) be in direct violation of MCL 123.1102? It seems to me that MCL 123.1102 should remove all discretion from MCL 28.422(3). What do you guys think?

Renegade, your analysis is correct. The law requires due speed and dilligence in issuing permits. Because no other law exists to contradict that, and because of preemption, it is damn well required, and Ferndale is damn well out of line.

The problem is that there is no legal penalty for violating this law. The only recourse is seeking government assistance from other agencies, or suing. Both are workable. smellslikemichigan, I sent you a PM.

michigander, sent PM and email

RenegadeMarine said:

wouldn't the local PD's having so much discretion in regards to issuing PP's (MCL 28.422(3)) be in direct violation of MCL 123.1102?

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Nope.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

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Since the law that gives them such wide discretion is a state law it doesn't violate 123.1102. Pre-emption just prevents Ferndale from making/enforcing their own laws in regards to firearms possession etc.

Bronson

@smellslikemichigan

I can tell that Ferndale will be receiving 2 RI-60s for your friends recent purchase this week. I gave him my contact info and will be speaking with Ferndale about their delay in issuing permits.

I am the guy that was denied a hand gun purchase permit. I had left out some details of a few incidents regarding police reports from Ferndale PD to my friend. I have few incidents on police reports (never been charged). 1 includes fighting self defense another included a ex girlfriend that found out about my new girl and came over assaulted me in my home (which i didnt report) then called the police on me. I did'nt file any charges nor received any. I ended up having stiches that night on my shoulder and a night at the hospital. I bet that is what the detective is looking at and has in his mind probable cause which he stated. So if you guys can call back the troops and let this one go please. That incident happend about 4 years ago and i want it left behind where it belongs.

Thisguy said:

I am the guy that was denied a hand gun purchase permit. I had left out some details of a few incidents regarding police reports from Ferndale PD to my friend. I have few incidents on police reports (never been charged). 1 includes fighting self defense another included a ex girlfriend that found out about my new girl and came over assaulted me in my home (which i didnt report) then called the police on me. I did'nt file any charges nor received any. I ended up having stiches that night on my shoulder and a night at the hospital. I bet that is what the detective is looking at and has in his mind probable cause which he stated. So if you guys can call back the troops and let this one go please. That incident happend about 4 years ago and i want it left behind where it belongs.

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I'd say, based on your troubles, I'm older than you are. So I'm going to provide some advice, (not legal advice, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV)which you are free to use or ignore.

ANYTIME you get involved in any sort of altercation with ANYONE, report it. Even if you don't want to file charges against them, report it. If you think it will just go away, you are sadly mistaken. It has been my long experience, when someone thinks they've been wronged (ex girl/boy friend vs. new girl/boy friend, even if they were the aggressor, if you are known to have a "forgiving nature" and are not likely to report what happened, they'll take advantage and report it from their side, saying YOU attacked them.

If nothing else, tell the police that while you don't want to press charges, say you're afraid they might do something "stupid," and may even be a danger to themselves. After all, anyone who pulls that sort of stunt is NOT in their right mind.

Whatever you do, get your call in first. For some silly reason, being the first to call makes a difference.

sprinklerguy28 said:

@smellslikemichigan

I can tell that Ferndale will be receiving 2 RI-60s for your friends recent purchase this week. I gave him my contact info and will be speaking with Ferndale about their delay in issuing permits.

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they didn't delay his purchase permit, they flat out denied it, stating probable cause without actually citing it. the county, oddly enough had no issues issuing his CPL with due diligence.

Bronson, I do believe you are mistaken. Again, the pistol registration law itself requires due speed and diligence in issuing permits. Try to define "due speed and diligence" with any dictionary you can find. I referenced several, and several online as well. All made me come to the conclusion that "diligence" means without any pause unless it's absolutely needed, and due speed obviously means with whatever speed is due. On account of preemption, and the requirement for "diligence", this precisely means haul ass and get it done. If the records department closes at 5 pm and it's 4:55, they could say they don't have time. Busy as hell at 4:45? Maybe you'll have to wait. Anything more than that and they're violating the law.

I should add that I ran this by Dean a year and a half ago or so, and he agreed with my assessment. This type of abuse is illegal.

Thisguy said:

I am the guy that was denied a hand gun purchase permit. I had left out some details of a few incidents regarding police reports from Ferndale PD to my friend. I have few incidents on police reports (never been charged). 1 includes fighting self defense another included a ex girlfriend that found out about my new girl and came over assaulted me in my home (which i didnt report) then called the police on me. I did'nt file any charges nor received any. I ended up having stiches that night on my shoulder and a night at the hospital. I bet that is what the detective is looking at and has in his mind probable cause which he stated. So if you guys can call back the troops and let this one go please. That incident happend about 4 years ago and i want it left behind where it belongs.

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Well okay, as you wish. Please take a moment and think about what you posted, apparently it has not been left behind you if Ferndale PD is denying you based on a report from years ago where there were: no arrest, charges, or court date. That is an abuse of your civil rights! And it probably means they are doing this to many others also. Please consider filing a formal complaint in this matter.

Michigander said:

Bronson, I do believe you are mistaken. Again, the pistol registration law itself requires due speed and diligence in issuing permits. Try to define "due speed and diligence" with any dictionary you can find. I referenced several, and several online as well. All made me come to the conclusion that "diligence" means without any pause unless it's absolutely needed, and due speed obviously means with whatever speed is due. On account of preemption, and the requirement for "diligence", this precisely means haul ass and get it done. If the records department closes at 5 pm and it's 4:55, they could say they don't have time. Busy as hell at 4:45? Maybe you'll have to wait. Anything more than that and they're violating the law.

I should add that I ran this by Dean a year and a half ago or so, and he agreed with my assessment. This type of abuse is illegal.

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But he wasn't delayed, he was denied due to "probable cause,"...which they are allowed to do.

(3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:

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It's still pretty shaky ground since there is no official record. He wasn't convicted of anything just a couple of encounters that didn't lead to arrests or convictions but they still happened. I think denying a LTPP because the authorities believe you may be a danger should fall under the same scrutiny as when a CPL is denied. It should require that the denying agency show proof of the applicants past behavior to support the belief that he is a danger instead of "I know he's been in some trouble so I don't think he should have one."

From the CPL licensing law:

Issuing a license to the applicant to carry a concealed pistol in this state is not detrimental to the safety of the applicant or to any other individual. A determination under this subdivision shall be based on clear and convincing evidence of repeated violations of this act, crimes, personal protection orders or injunctions, or police reports or other clear and convincing evidence of the actions of, or statements of, the applicant that bear directly on the applicant's ability to carry a concealed pistol.

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Bronson

I can see your point Bronson.

What I would think at that point, pointing out that I'm venturing into legalize stuff I'm not so familiar with, is that I believe innocent until proven guilty is a requirement derived from the 5th amendment, isn't it? Assuming that there is no active restraining order, or criminal charges pending, and NO history of criminal convictions, I don't see where they have that ability under the constitution.

Another consideration is the rather strong meaning of "probable cause". Probable cause I do know, is a constitutionally specified term used to define the level of suspicion needed for an on the spot, warrantless arrest. To a cop, that should be some extremely strong evidence, preferably proven by a video along with eyewitness testimony. When used to look back on a situation with no convictions, it becomes very hard to look at it with any merit.

One last thing I should add is that not knowing the full details of thisguy's situation, and considering that he wants nothing more made of it, I'm not trying to make any additional issue of his case, I'm merely trying to make sure we can come to a consensus on the limits of power the police have for permit issuance.