Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Jefferson County Missouri

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105

    Jefferson County Missouri

    Below is an email I sent the following people in Hillsboro, Mo.
    If anyone would like to help ask questions please feel free to contact them.

    Sheriff Glen Boyer: GBoyer@jeffcomo.org
    Lt. Col. Steven Meinberg: SMeinberg@jeffcomo.org
    Capt. Ron Arnhart: RArnhart@jeffcomo.org
    Capt. Ralph Brown: Rbrown@jeffcomo.org

    Good morning Gentlemen,

    I am emailing you with questions regarding open carry in Imperial, Mo. My
    question, Is it legal? Iíve researched this topic on
    Sullivan Publications and municode.com online library with no luck. So I
    thought it would be best if I personally asked you for the
    code/law while open carrying. Thank you in advance for your response and
    support.

    Jim Davis

    Reply:

    Mr. Davis,

    The Federal "Right to Carry" law covers everyone with a few exceptions.
    The Missouri law is the same. Persons who are not authorized to carry are
    convicted felons, fugitives, habitual drug/alcohol users or mentally
    incompetent.
    Cities/municipalities may have a local ordinance however you would have to
    contact them for their ordinances
    This does not apply to carrying a weapon concealed.

    Donald Allen
    Jefferson County Sheriff's Office
    Director of Administration
    636.797.5585

    My Reply:
    Mr Allen,
    I'm only asking what the weapon ordinance is for Imperial, Missouri in
    regards to openly carry a firearm. Every city has a set of ordinance and I
    have NOT found one for Imperial. Some cities allow open carry with
    concealed carry permits while others allow without any permits and also
    there are a few where its NOT LEGAL at all. Per your response I am
    contacting you with my inquires.

    Thank you for your time,
    Jim Davis

    Mr. Davis,

    Since Imperial does not have its own local government it would fall under
    the federal and state statues.
    Basically a qualified person has the right to carry anywhere that is not
    posted or not listed in the statue. (schools, churches banks, etc)

    Hope this answers your question.

    Donald Allen
    Jefferson County Sheriff's Office
    Director of Administration
    636.797.5585

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    KC
    Posts
    1,012
    Quote Originally Posted by jad316 View Post
    [snip]

    Mr. Davis,

    Since Imperial does not have its own local government it would fall under
    the federal and state statues.
    Basically a qualified person has the right to carry anywhere that is not
    posted or not listed in the statue. (schools, churches banks, etc)

    Hope this answers your question.

    Donald Allen
    Jefferson County Sheriff's Office
    Director of Administration
    636.797.5585
    Mr Allen isn't quite correct. Imperial is not a municipality (although that was news to me) it's a Census Designated Place, but it is in Jefferson County. So, it would fall under federal, state, and county statutes.

    If you can find the county statutes, and cannot find any provisions relating to Open Carry, you should be good to go. If you can't find the county statutes, then you need to find and check them before open carrying.

    Oddly enough, you would think that the police would know what is legal and what isn't. But that does not seem to be true in practice. I would recommend looking things up for yourself. After all, if Mr. Allen is incorrect about it being legal, it's your butt in jail, not his.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    st louis
    Posts
    640
    CDP/unincorperated should fall under federal/state/county laws. i believe oc is legal.

    also you can oc in a bank, just not a federal bank. he was wrong on that.
    also carrying in a church is restricted, but not a criminal act unless you refuse to leave.

    correct me if im wrong.
    Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Mr Allen isn't quite correct. Imperial is not a municipality (although that was news to me) it's a Census Designated Place, but it is in Jefferson County. So, it would fall under federal, state, and county statutes.

    If you can find the county statutes, and cannot find any provisions relating to Open Carry, you should be good to go. If you can't find the county statutes, then you need to find and check them before open carrying.

    Oddly enough, you would think that the police would know what is legal and what isn't. But that does not seem to be true in practice. I would recommend looking things up for yourself. After all, if Mr. Allen is incorrect about it being legal, it's your butt in jail, not his.
    Jefferson Counties Codes can be found here. http://codes.sullivanpublications.com/codes-slp/ and I could find no firearm restrictions what so ever. As a matter of fact it is the shortest code book I have ever seen for a city or county. That being said. They just use state law. State law says OC is legal. Now this covers you in unincorporated Jefferson county(and yes that includes Imperial) but when you are in the city limits of any township or city you are then required to know and abide by there laws (if any) governing OC. I would advise you to print out your letter and keep it with you when OCing. It is something that may head off any long detention should you run across a deputy that has no knowledge of what the law is.

    Good luck carry safe. always read the codes for yourself. till state wide pre-emotion is achieved it is the headache you must suffer.
    Doc

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    Doc,
    Thank you for the advise....

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    Question....below is the Mo Revised Statute: does this statement reflect open carry: " Carries concealed upon or about his "


    UPON or ABOUT HIS or HER person????

    I think the best course of action is to attend some of meets with Doc and fellow oc'ers????


    Missouri Revised Statutes
    Chapter 571
    Weapons Offenses
    Section 571.030

    August 28, 2010




    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by jad316 View Post
    Question....below is the Mo Revised Statute: does this statement reflect open carry: " Carries concealed upon or about his "


    UPON or ABOUT HIS or HER person????

    I think the best course of action is to attend some of meets with Doc and fellow oc'ers????

    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or
    You are missing the word CONCEALED, open carry is not concealed, if you wish to carry concealed you must have a permit.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universityís School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    Below in another email sent by jefferson county sheriff's office: Sounds to me like they are just beating around the bush???



    Mr. Davis;

    I am replying to your email concerning open carry. First off I am assuming that you are inquiring about carrying say a handgun in a holster.(With no concealed permit) If this is the case there has been some recent news coverage and talk among law enforcement and our responses to such incidents. I can not speak for the Sheriffs Office in this case but it is my understanding that by itself it can be construed as legal. You have to understand that laws are written by lawyers and almost all areas of the law can be interpreted differently. In other words I do not want to give you advice that could lead to criminal prosecution. An example of this is some people would argue that a gun shown openly in a holster is not concealed. Others could argue that the weapon is mostly concealed by the holster hence making it illegal without a concealed carry permit. Also recently a person who believes that it is OK to carry in such a manner went to a department store and law enforcement was called. In this case if the store does not object and there is no postings prohibiting such an act some would argue that this action is acceptable. Other patrons of the establishment might feel uncomfortable or even fear for their own safety because of a person carrying in such a manner. Thus this may lead to criminal prosecution of the person displaying the weapon under Assault 3rd Deg. So long story short I would not recommend open carry because of the possibility of the criminal charges that may be sought. If you have any other questions or comments please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Sgt. Gary Higginbotham
    Jefferson County Sheriffs Office
    East Zone Division
    P.O. Box 100
    Hillsboro Mo. 63050
    Phone (636) 797-6236
    Fax (636) 464-5850
    E-Mail: ghigginbotham@jeffcomo.org

  9. #9
    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Overland, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by jad316 View Post
    Below in another email sent by Jefferson county sheriff's office: Sounds to me like they are just beating around the bush???
    I wouldn't call that beating around the bush. I would call that trying to stretch the law to create a culture of fear. He is implying(most likely a bluff). that if someone is afraid of you than you and they show up. You will be ticketed. As well they are saying that a holstered firearm may be considered concealed. This guy is about a about a narrow mustache away from complete totalitarian. Personally I would take his idle threats and tell him nice try on intimidation, and he may want to have the county council budget some extra money for pay outs for lawsuits they will be loosing for violating peoples constitutional rights.

    Doc

  10. #10
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Okanogan Highland
    Posts
    2,332
    Here is the deal, and I am not from MO, but this works everywhere.

    There is no LAW anywhere that "Allows" OC. There are only specific laws that prohibit certain actions, and discribe penalties for no abiding by those laws. OK?

    You will NEVER see a LAW that allow you to OC in WA, ID, WY... (and in these states there are no laws that prohibit the practice)

    What this sherif is saying, whatever is legal in the US and MO, is legal where you were asking about becasue he does not know of any county law that prohibits it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    , Missouri, USA
    Posts
    687
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    I wouldn't call that beating around the bush. I would call that trying to stretch the law to create a culture of fear. He is implying(most likely a bluff). that if someone is afraid of you than you and they show up. You will be ticketed. As well they are saying that a holstered firearm may be considered concealed. This guy is about a about a narrow mustache away from complete totalitarian. Personally I would take his idle threats and tell him nice try on intimidation, and he may want to have the county council budget some extra money for pay outs for lawsuits they will be loosing for violating peoples constitutional rights.

    Doc
    I see it just slightly different. I believe in part of his response, he is (rightly) trying to cover his own butt by not attempting to give advice that could come back to bite him. I'm sure his fear of his superiors far outweighs his concern to make a person feel comfortable about OC in his jurisdiction. In the other part of his response, on the other hand, he is either purposefully misrepresenting various laws to "scare" this person into not carrying, or he really is that misinformed and is simply passing along misinformation.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    Finally a response from Sheriff Boyer: I would like someone to give me some good verbage to answer his question. As I would like to have strong wording and answer other than "personal protection"....




    Mr.Davis

    Currently Missouri law dose not require a permit or any kind of license to
    carry a firearm in the open IE not concealed. to carry concealed a permit
    is required by the state. I would not suggest that you carry openly as in
    todays times people always think the worst and we would receive many calls
    about a man with a gun?? Certainly it is your right to do so in the
    unincorporated areas of the county. Each muny will have there own ordance
    for their community so I would check with them before entering their
    communities.

    I would be interested in why you feel the need to carry?

    Sheriff Boyer



    From: Jimmy Davis <jad316@yahoo.com>

    To: GBoyer@jeffcomo.org

    Cc: SMeinberg@jeffcomo.org, RArnhart@jeffcomo.org, RBrown@jeffcomo.org

    Date: 07/22/2011 09:20 AM

    Subject: Weapon Ordinace




    Good morning Gentlemen,
    I am emailing you with questions regarding open carry in Imperial, Mo. My question, Is it legal? Iíve researched this
    topic on Sullivan Publications and municode.com online library with no luck. So I thought it would be best if I
    personally asked you for the code/law while open carrying. Thank you in advance for your response and support.

    Jim Davis

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Jefferson City, Mo., ,
    Posts
    490
    Punctuation and spelling, as well as capitalization are not his strong points I guess.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    KC
    Posts
    1,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Festus_Hagen View Post
    Punctuation and spelling, as well as capitalization are not his strong points I guess.
    No kidding, that gives me a headache just reading it. Although most of the spelling issues is homonym confusing. But, I think he confused every single one...

    From the previous email...

    I seem to remember that RSMo had a fairly exacting definition of what "concealed carry" is. Basically, that the firearm had to be identifiable from 3 different angles to be considered openly carried. If it's less than that, it's concealed. I'm not sure what they definite their angles as though. And, I'm not sure what the definition of identifiable is, but a gun in a typical holster (i.e. not one that covers the entire gun) should be identifiable. So, if I had my firearm in a Serpa at 3 o'clock (I'm a lefty...) then it should be identifiable from 12, 6, and 3.

    I can't seem to find the cite for that though, does anyone know where that is? And, if there isn't one, I could just be making crap up...

    Anyway, my point is that there's a definite meaning to "concealed carry" and you cannot be cited for that willy nilly. As far as the possibility of an assault charge, I don't know the definition of that.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    1,924
    Quote Originally Posted by cshoff View Post
    I see it just slightly different. I believe in part of his response, he is (rightly) trying to cover his own butt by not attempting to give advice that could come back to bite him. I'm sure his fear of his superiors far outweighs his concern to make a person feel comfortable about OC in his jurisdiction. In the other part of his response, on the other hand, he is either purposefully misrepresenting various laws to "scare" this person into not carrying, or he really is that misinformed and is simply passing along misinformation.
    That or he is indeed trying to answer the question within the scope of his knowledge base. If he frequents "cop forums" a boat load of them make outlandish claims such as these with the most common being "I will arrest him for disturbing the peace, run his gun and see what else I can charge him with so we can stop this crap" and after reading a bunch of those, he may well be lost in the middle of what is right and what other cops say.

    He is right about one thing, never forget the ability of a lawyer to stretch anything into far far more than it ever was!
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman Universityís School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    St. Louis, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    231
    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt. Gary Higginbotham
    Also recently a person who believes that it is OK to carry in such a manner went to a department store and law enforcement was called.
    Hmmm. Sounds familiar...

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Imperial, Missouri.
    Posts
    105
    Lancer: I agree!!!!!!! LOL

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    10
    Open Carry is legal in Jefferson County and also Imperial as it is not a city
    Arnold has change their law to open carry also I open carry in Jefferson County all of the time.Only had a problem with a new officer who did not know the law, hedoes now.
    festus open carry Crystal City no go for example
    Last edited by fwk; 11-08-2011 at 07:07 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ellisville, Missouri, USA
    Posts
    1,966
    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    jefferson counties codes can be found here. http://codes.sullivanpublications.com/codes-slp/ and i could find no firearm restrictions what so ever. As a matter of fact it is the shortest code book i have ever seen for a city or county. That being said. They just use state law. State law says oc is legal. Now this covers you in unincorporated jefferson county(and yes that includes imperial) but when you are in the city limits of any township or city you are then required to know and abide by there laws (if any) governing oc. I would advise you to print out your letter and keep it with you when ocing. It is something that may head off any long detention should you run across a deputy that has no knowledge of what the law is.

    Good luck carry safe. Always read the codes for yourself. Till state wide pre-emotion is achieved it is the headache you must suffer.
    Doc
    ditto!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •