• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Herald Tribune - Florida open carriers to walk through Venice on Saturday July 23d

hammer6

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Florida
We're also planning on setting up a table at the gun shows. Don't forget, Florida Carry is less than a year old and comprises an all-volunteer board. Unfortunately, life sometimes gets in the way when you'd rather be doing things you like. :D



haha- yes, you are right. if you do the gun show in palmetto, i could help out those 2 days.
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
This is my exchange with the organizer of this event today on facebook. This skirting of the legislature's intent in 790.25 does not sit well in Tallahassee. Well no wonder. These people don't want to fix Florida's open carry ban. They just want to be provocateurs and get in the paper.

Read for yourself...

Ethan Traub
http://www.heraldtribune.com/articl...NEWS?Title=Gun-owners-to-march-through-Venice
Anyone strolling through Centennial Park in Venice on Saturday morning may suddenly be surrounded by scores of people with handguns openly strapped to their waists.


Sean Caranna
And now I'm having to clean up the mess you made.
There will be no open carry bill in the legislature (due to sponsor concerns over this event) next year unless I can do some extreme damage control to undo your mess.


Ethan Traub
So what. Florida's OC law is fine. Just work with what we have. In my research I didn't find any OC bills that made it through committees.


Sean Caranna
learn to do research better. See SB234 OC died on the floor after all six committees.


Ethan Traub
Stop wasting your time trying for new bills. This isn't the last OC event that I organize. We will be moving around a couple of counties. Today we had over 40 people with us. Next time I expect double! So much for needing credentials or and incorporation to get things done. I am also in the process of getting some local gun related ordinances removed or revised.


Ethan Traub
Another thing that I can't seem to find is the "Intent of the Law" book that all of you anti gun people claim spells out the law different than the statute. Do I need to learn "to do research better"?

Damage Control is in progress. These people are provocateurs, do not want change to Florida's OC ban and do not represent the Florida Open Carry Movement and Florida Carry
 
Last edited:

Rich7553

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
515
Location
SWFL
Congratulations Ethan Traub and Todd von Bender. As organizers of the Venice "IN YOUR FACE" event, in just a couple of hours, you have undone at least a year's worth of work at softening the legislature to the idea of general open carry. Thanks to YOU, the sponsor of the expansion of OC rights bill we had planned on introducing in the next session has expressed severe reservations after the phones lit up in Tallahassee with concerns from citizens over your stunt.

Several months ago, we warned you about the potential backlash that could occur if you attempted to stretch beyond the intent of the "going to/while/coming from fishing" to the open carry prohibition in Florida law. We told you what happened in 1987, when a couple of "IN YOUR FACE" activists pushed open carry too far in Miami-Dade, despite it being legal. The legislature responded to the public outcry by convening an emergency session to prohibit open carry. But you didn't listen, did you?

You stood on the simple premise of "legality" without any consideration for the reality of "politics". You completely disregarded the simple fact that gun carriers comprise only a portion of Floridians, and much of the population is from notoriously gun-unfriendly states. This puts any pro-gun effort at a immediate disadvantage. Your efforts have done nothing but inflame the gun-haters and reinforce the stereotype of "gun nuts".

Your event was little more than a publicity stunt aimed at gathering attention, perhaps for Mr. von Bender's business. Well, you've certainly done that. By your own admission, you state that "Florida's open carry law is fine." Let's just hope the legislature doesn't act to remove that very exemption. The worst part is that you've intentionally mislead a group of people to participate in this fiasco. You have done the law-abiding gun carriers of Florida a disservice and you've put a blight on the concept of RESPONSIBLE gun owners who don't abuse the word and intent of statute.

You obviously have no understanding of the difference between freedom and liberty. Freedom is doing what you want. Liberty is the responsible exercise thereof.
 
Last edited:

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
This is my exchange with the organizer of this event today on facebook. This skirting of the legislature's intent in 790.25 does not sit well in Tallahassee. Well no wonder. These people don't want to fix Florida's open carry ban. They just want to be provocateurs and get in the paper.

Read for yourself...



Damage Control is in progress. These people are provocateurs, do not want change to Florida's OC ban and do not represent the Florida Open Carry Movement and Florida Carry

Why would he say Fl's OC ban is "fine" if he wasn't a provocateur?

Still, I'm a little torn though; if we can restore some of our rights in a timely manner by not demonstrating as these people in Venice, then I agree with you. Then on the other hand, I feel like you're saying Rosa Parks was bad because she should have talked to her legislator instead of sitting at the front of the bus. The legislature has denied us a fundamental freedom enjoyed in 80% of the nation and I'm pissed. Also, I'm not sure what the intent of the legislature was in 790.25. They could have limited OC to the property where the exceptional activity was taking place, but they did not.
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
Thanks to YOU, the sponsor of our expansion of OC rights bill we had planned on introducing in the next session has backed out after the phones lit up in Tallahassee with protests from citizens over your stunt.

A real Patrick Henry that sponsor is! Goodness, maybe ixtow is right about Fl.
 

Rich7553

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
515
Location
SWFL
A real Patrick Henry that sponsor is! Goodness, maybe ixtow is right about Fl.

Actually, I've edited my post after having received another phone call. The sponsor has not backed out, but we need to let the issue cool down somewhat. He has, however, expressed serious concern over the issue.
 

Thundar

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
4,946
Location
Newport News, Virginia, USA
Florida Open Carry is a grassroots movement of Florida Carry. We are the same people. The group that held the event in Venice is unrelated to either FOC or FC, and has been completely unknown until this event.

I find it interesting that someone from Virginia would be attacking an organization working on rights in Florida. Smells like a troll to me.

Hey sport, I am not a troll, I am a hard core gun RIGHTS activist. The point you don't seem to understand is that there are many here that see a big difference between Open Carry gun rights and concealed carry permission slips.

My folks live in Port Charlotte. Open carry was necessary there after Hurricane Charley tore it up. Now it is infested with meth heads and squatters. The concealed carry law in Florida sucks. I keep my Virginia permit because it is recognized in Florida and I do not want to be disarmed there. The deterrent effect of open carrying is a tangible benefit that Florida denies the law abiding. There will come a time when you have taken concealed carry permission slips as far down the road as is possible. Is that the end or RKBA advocacy, or is open carry something that will be done only after concealed carry is perfected?

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not condemn, nor do I attack. I am merely pointing out the difference in beliefs. Gun owners are a diverse crowd. Many are extremely independent and individualistic. I was a bit abrasive because and called you sport because you used the term sparky for those that held a different view from you.

The situation that you are facing in Florida is not at all unique. There are big rifts over how to go about securing rights in many states. There are incrementalists and there are absolutists. Incrementalists try to improve in little steps concealed carry conditions. Absolutists insist on exercising their rights to the greatest degree possible. You will never get everybody onboard with your plan. Virginia had a very similar situation. The grassroots organization is VCDL - Virginia Citizens Defence League. It grew out of the Northern Virginia concealed carry group. It now advocates for all Keep and Bear Arms progress. They have worked hard to try and be a big tent organization. You might ask Philip VanCleave for some advice on how to keep everybody pointed in the same direction. Trying to control gun rights people really is like herding cats. Wait until you try and organize a public forum for discussion. The antis are easy to deal with. It will be the gun owners that will drive you nuts.

What I would aim for is constitutional carry. It is catching on in many states and is the big tent idea that absolutists can rally behind, and a unifying direction incrementalists to chip away at stupid laws bit by bit.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar
 

Rich7553

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
515
Location
SWFL
Hey sport, I am not a troll, I am a hard core gun RIGHTS activist. The point you don't seem to understand is that there are many here that see a big difference between Open Carry gun rights and concealed carry permission slips.

My folks live in Port Charlotte. Open carry was necessary there after Hurricane Charley tore it up. Now it is infested with meth heads and squatters. The concealed carry law in Florida sucks. I keep my Virginia permit because it is recognized in Florida and I do not want to be disarmed there. The deterrent effect of open carrying is a tangible benefit that Florida denies the law abiding. There will come a time when you have taken concealed carry permission slips as far down the road as is possible. Is that the end or RKBA advocacy, or is open carry something that will be done only after concealed carry is perfected?

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not condemn, nor do I attack. I am merely pointing out the difference in beliefs. Gun owners are a diverse crowd. Many are extremely independent and individualistic. I was a bit abrasive because and called you sport because you used the term sparky for those that held a different view from you.

The situation that you are facing in Florida is not at all unique. There are big rifts over how to go about securing rights in many states. There are incrementalists and there are absolutists. Incrementalists try to improve in little steps concealed carry conditions. Absolutists insist on exercising their rights to the greatest degree possible. You will never get everybody onboard with your plan. Virginia had a very similar situation. The grassroots organization is VCDL - Virginia Citizens Defence League. It grew out of the Northern Virginia concealed carry group. It now advocates for all Keep and Bear Arms progress. They have worked hard to try and be a big tent organization. You might ask Philip VanCleave for some advice on how to keep everybody pointed in the same direction. Trying to control gun rights people really is like herding cats. Wait until you try and organize a public forum for discussion. The antis are easy to deal with. It will be the gun owners that will drive you nuts.

What I would aim for is constitutional carry. It is catching on in many states and is the big tent idea that absolutists can rally behind, and a unifying direction incrementalists to chip away at stupid laws bit by bit.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Actually, we have spoken to Philip several times, and he was a great help in getting the preemption teeth bill verbiage drafted.

My use of the term "Sparky" was directed at the individual who, through asking what we have done, was essentially insinuating that we had done nothing of note. Nothing can be more from the truth, as noted.

But on the topic of constitutional carry, the Florida legislature is nowhere near that point. SB 234 was an effort to simply remove the OC prohibition from LICENSED concealed carriers, and was also used as a gauge to determine how open the legislature was to the idea. As it turned out, the legislature as a whole view the well-documented view of concealed carriers as law-abiding and responsible, is inconsequential when compared to the "fantasy" of blood in the streets and wild west scenarios put forth by opponents of the bill. We did this to avoid the backlash experienced today, using the tactic that gun rights have been stripped a piece at a time, and likewise must be reinstated a piece at a time. It's part of the process of education and normalization of both the population and the legislature.

Virginia, to my knowledge, always has had some form of general open carry. Florida, and six other states, have not. It's a different political climate here.
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
The situation that you are facing in Florida is not at all unique. There are big rifts over how to go about securing rights in many states. There are incrementalists and there are absolutists. Incrementalists try to improve in little steps concealed carry conditions. Absolutists insist on exercising their rights to the greatest degree possible. You will never get everybody onboard with your plan. Virginia had a very similar situation. The grassroots organization is VCDL - Virginia Citizens Defence League. It grew out of the Northern Virginia concealed carry group. It now advocates for all Keep and Bear Arms progress. They have worked hard to try and be a big tent organization. You might ask Philip VanCleave for some advice on how to keep everybody pointed in the same direction. Trying to control gun rights people really is like herding cats. Wait until you try and organize a public forum for discussion. The antis are easy to deal with. It will be the gun owners that will drive you nuts.

What I would aim for is constitutional carry. It is catching on in many states and is the big tent idea that absolutists can rally behind, and a unifying direction incrementalists to chip away at stupid laws bit by bit.

I think Fl carry deserves more respect and lattitude than you're giving them. NRA has dominated Fl gun politics since the 80's and they've already made a name for themselves in 6 months of existence.

And actually, Fl's situation is a little bit unique. Since gun control kicked off in the late 60's, no state has legalized OC after it was illegal. Fairly pro gun states of TX and OK have also failed to legalize. To the ignorant sheep that make up the country, it sounds radical, that there must be a good reason it's illegal. If Virginia had made OC illegal, I'd say there would be a good chance you'd still be fighting for the right today. Having lived a significant % of my life in Va, I can't say it's really more pro 2nd amendment than Fl. It's likely Fl would be a gold star state today had the murder/butcher of Waco, Mr (sic) Janet Reno not been state attorney general in 1987. Fl won't have constitutional carry until OC passes.
 
Last edited:

hammer6

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,461
Location
Florida
Actually, I've edited my post after having received another phone call. The sponsor has not backed out, but we need to let the issue cool down somewhat. He has, however, expressed serious concern over the issue.

what was the concern? was anyone shot? did anyone draw a gun? i understand it didn't fall under the approval of florida carry, but if they acted according to the wording of the law, then what's the big deal? it's like we are freaking out over people exercising their rights....isn't that what we are fighting for? i understand there needs to be order- but what did they do wrong?
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
what was the concern? was anyone shot? did anyone draw a gun? i understand it didn't fall under the approval of florida carry, but if they acted according to the wording of the law, then what's the big deal? it's like we are freaking out over people exercising their rights....isn't that what we are fighting for? i understand there needs to be order- but what did they do wrong?

Yeah, where do they think they are, America-the land of the free home of the brave?
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
what was the concern? was anyone shot? did anyone draw a gun? i understand it didn't fall under the approval of florida carry, but if they acted according to the wording of the law, then what's the big deal? it's like we are freaking out over people exercising their rights....isn't that what we are fighting for? i understand there needs to be order- but what did they do wrong?

They shoved the legislature's nose in "it". The intent of the law was to let people carry while they went fishing and get to and from. Not to have a protest march through downtown and then wet a hook.
 
Last edited:

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,535
Location
Quarryville, PA
I am going to jump to Thundar's defense here. First off, I think the Florida law is stupid and ambiguous. What I see is two gun groups who want to battle rather than attempt to work together. Yes, they may have pulled a stunt event but did their actions really cause any negative consequences? They showed that a group of 40 people can OC together with no problems. If your lawmaker is skittish, it sounds like you need a new lawmaker. You guys should pull your resources and use everybody to your advantage. Florida Carry is a new group, right? You need as many members as possible, why not try to get as many of these "walkers" into your group as possible. Last but not least, isn't it a little strange for someone with less than 300 posts to call someone with more than 3000 posts a troll?

EDIT: Rich, this is not intended to be negative towards you or Florida Carry. I think you guys have great group going.
 
Last edited:

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
No actually it isn't. The original question was in the context of gun rights, which Florida Open Carry promotes, and not Perks for Permittees (P4P) which FLorida Carry seems hellbent on increasing. There is a BIG difference, Sport.

I agree with your premise thundar, but Floriduh will never, ever, ever, ever be a gold start OC state. Floriduh is an extreme elitist State. The 'I'm better than you because...' mindset is more prevalent here than anywhere on the planet I have ever been. EVER. By a wide margin.

If there is to be OC here, it will be the P4P sort. It will never happen any other way. The task of attempting OC of any kind in Floriduh is akin to convincing Kim Jong Il that he is not a god, and his subjects deserve guns, too. The general mindest of the average Floridan is very, very anti-rights. The Average Joe Floridian Voter makes Schumer and Feinstein look like Ron Paul. Until that changes, no OC effort will succeed.

FloridaCarry has done many things, except the most important one; Influence the minds of the extreme Statists who live here. Even California has uOC...

The approach that FloridaCarry has taken is one of pragmatism. But they aimed for their goal. That never works in FL. I feel they should still aim high, and then 'settle' for P4P. The Legislative Process is horribly corrupt here. The only hope is to start out presuming you'll have to compromize about 95% of what you want to accomplish. Pad your Bill with a ton of crap you don't mind losing. Sacrifice it all except the one primary thing you really wanted. Try to make it look like a minor detail.

FloridaCarry wants to tiptoe, but use legal weight wherever possible. All this will do is encourage the FSA to lean on Legislators to remove penalties and liability for their bad behavior. They can't swing that legal weight if the laws are neutered... It's a plan to fail in advance. I sometimes wonder if FloridaCarry understands the environment they are in. I'm not tryign to detract from their efforts. I just wish they would stop using the wrong tool for the job. Hammers are not used on screws. They need to re-appraise the environemnt of Floriduh. They're using the wrong tools. A bigger hammer is exactly what we need, the problem is a giant nail. While finesse and engineering solve many problems, that is not the environment of Floriduh. Floriduh is a meta-engine of brute-force abuse of power. Period. Fancy, expensive jeweler's tools are great and all, but they don't work for this problem. My paranoia kicks in as I think it's too difficult to keep getting it so perfectly wrong on purpose. How can you NOT know these things? How can you be up to your eyeballs in it and somehow manage to do precisely the wrong thing every time?

"Stunts" are the only way. Florida is already drastically elitist in the area of Firearms. We need to change that attitude. It can't get worse than it already is. Walking on eggshells and hoping for the best isn't going to work. The enemy holds the high ground. If they take away our Fishing Exception, so be it. We can't use it for anything practical or useful anyway, may as well 'pull a stunt' and see what happens. We have nothing worthwhile to lose, and everything to gain.

I wish I were there.

I support anyone who is trying, but I'm much more interested in the people who are striking at the root, instead of the people swinging from the branches. There will be backlash no matter what is done. Stir the pot. Take ACTION instead of scheeming cloak-and-dagger plots that won't work.

Woohoo, you're going to 'enforce' 45. Notice how devoid that thread is of an example of someone every being prosecuted or even harassed on the basis of those illigitimate local ordinances? It makes a big splash, but it doesn't do anything...

FloridaCarry is on a high horse of 'our way is the only way' and will alienate other groups until they stop doing that crap. Furthermore, their way is wrong and won't work. They need a few bites of humble pie, come down out of the ivory tower, and join with the rest of us living in reality.

It's flashy and makes a cool thing to put on your resume, but it isn't working. It isn't going to until they recognize the environment they are in and pick up the right tools for the job. You can't smoke a cigarette underwater. Sure, you've got the cigarettes, you've got the lighter, and you know how to use them. But you're underwater! Living and Operating in denial of this fact means it will never work.

This 'stunt' is the first concerted effort I've seen from anyone in Floriduh, besides myself, to pull our heads above the water. It's great that FloridaCarry has the resources that it has. But FloridaCarry isn't approaching the surface where it's resources might become useful. Effort wasted, seemingly intentionally, doesn't impress me. I venture to say I'm not the only one.
 
Last edited:

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
I am going to jump to Thundar's defense here. First off, I think the Florida law is stupid and ambiguous. What I see is two gun groups who want to battle rather than attempt to work together. Yes, they may have pulled a stunt event but did their actions really cause any negative comsequences? They showed that a group of 40 people can OC together with no problems. If your lawmaker is skittish, it sounds like you need a new lawmaker. You guys should pull your resources and use everybody to your advantage. Florida Carry is a new group, right? You need as many members as possible, why not try to get as many of these "walkers" into your group as possible. Last but not least, isn't it a little strange for someone with less than 300 posts to call someone with more than 3000 posts a troll?

I have no clue how many posts I have here. I'll look after this post. I just know what I have done on the ground.

We tried to bring Traub and von Bender in with us multiple times. They don't want to work with the group, they want to get their own headlines by being as provocative on the subject as possible.

I took a leadership role in Florida because nobody before me was effective in doing anything. von Bender had made an attempt a few years before me. He failed and gave up for years. That was until I came along and made OC a household topic of discussion in FL and almost won licensed OC on my first try.

As you ca see from my earlier exchange with Traub. They don't care about making good law, just getting their names in the paper.

The 25-30 people who were there were mostly responding to the newspaper article that came out the day before and thought they were Florida Open Carry. I have already spoken to multiple people who were there and some of them feel "used" now that they know that the Florida Open Carry Movement was not the organizer.
 

thebigsd

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
3,535
Location
Quarryville, PA
I have no clue how many posts I have here. I'll look after this post. I just know what I have done on the ground.

We tried to bring Traub and von Bender in with us multiple times. They don't want to work with the group, they want to get their own headlines by being as provocative on the subject as possible.

I took a leadership role in Florida because nobody before me was effective in doing anything. von Bender had made an attempt a few years before me. He failed and gave up for years. That was until I came along and made OC a household topic of discussion in FL and almost won licensed OC on my first try.

As you ca see from my earlier exchange with Traub. They don't care about making good law, just getting their names in the paper.

The 25-30 people who were there were mostly responding to the newspaper article that came out the day before and thought they were Florida Open Carry. I have already spoken to multiple people who were there and some of them feel "used" now that they know that the Florida Open Carry Movement was not the organizer.

Like I said in my edit, my comments were not meant to be a negative attack against Florida Carry. From everything I have seen here, you guys are doing a great job. The comment about the post count was just intended to show that Thundar is a verified member of the community and in no way a troll.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Congratulations Ethan Traub and Todd von Bender. As organizers of the Venice "IN YOUR FACE" event, in just a couple of hours, you have undone at least a year's worth of work at softening the legislature to the idea of general open carry. Thanks to YOU, the sponsor of the expansion of OC rights bill we had planned on introducing in the next session has expressed severe reservations after the phones lit up in Tallahassee with concerns from citizens over your stunt.

"Your Open Carry Stunts will get the government to crack down on the rest of our gun rights! Stoppit stoppit stoppit! We like the boot on our necks! How dare you steal our thunder and do the thing we fail to do!"

What was said of OCers 10 years ago? You're using the same old argument to maintain your position as 'the bosses' of OC in FL. You're wrong. Your approach has never worked, and it never will.

I'm not trying to insult you. Understand that this argument was wrong, and always will be wrong. The ulterior motives that may or may not exist, are no excuse. Especially in the 'may not' aspect. If you aren't harboring a motive to claim the charge for OC for yourselves and get it wrong on purpose so that it can never happen, please explain why you're still insulting those who take action to do the things you shy away from, in spite of all the historical evidence that shows you are wrong?

Look how many people turn out for "OC Fishing Events." Statewide, you haven't gotten this many people together. Why? Because OC Fishing is stupid and doesn't do anything useful. Nobody wants to go that far out of their way to do soemthing that can't and doesn't help. Lets say your "but they'll come down on us harder" argument is right. So what? Nobody wants or cares to show up at OC Fishing events anyway. Why? Because they're useless and we have things to be doing. These are facts, not insults.

So, there can be no reason for all this tip-toeing around except for:
1) honestly have no clue what environment you are operating in
2) you're screwing it up on purpose

How can FloridaCarry be the chamion for OC in our State if they can whip out the oldest dead argument in the book and try to stand on it? C'mon guys! We're on the same team here. Or are we? I'm left wodnering if this isn't all a show, a false flag group. Like those fake sportsman's organizations Liberals crack up to try to draw gun owner votes into gun control.
 
Last edited:

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
"Your Open Carry Stunts will get the government to crack down on the rest of our gun rights! Stoppit stoppit stoppit! We like the boot on our necks! How dare you steal our thunder and do the thing we fail to do!"

Ix, you've spoken to me on the phone and been here to see what I've done so far. Is that what you think of me?
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Ix, you've spoken to me on the phone and been here to see what I've done so far. Is that what you think of me?

I'm left in a quandry. WTF is going on? How can you get it wrong on purpose, and use the oldest, most flogged and dead argument in the OC book as a defense for it?

When the problem really is a great big nail, it takes a great big hammer to pound it.

there can be no reason for all this tip-toeing around except for:
1) honestly have no clue what environment you are operating in
2) you're screwing it up on purpose
 
Last edited:

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
I'm left in a quandry. WTF is going on? How can you get it wrong on purpose, and use the oldest, most flogged and dead argument in the OC book as a defense for it?

When the problem really is a great big nail, it takes a great big hammer to pound it.

The hammer is primed but it's not time to strike yet. See http://georgiacarry.com/state/places_of_worship/
That case could be a game changer or could lead to nothing for us. We'll see...
 
Top