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Taco Via in Lee's Summit, MO - To Funny

ManInBlack

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I just always figured the instructors feel they have to tell people that so people will tell there friends they have to take the class and the instructor keeps making money, if they tell people they dont need a permission to carry, many people may ask for a refund LOL

Considering the demonstrated ignorance of so many of these "certified instructors," I always get a chuckle when I see people putting that crap in their sig lines like it's some kind of badge of honor. To me, it's like walking into a brain surgeon's office and seeing a diploma that reads "Universidad de Ciudad de México, 1954." Not exactly reassuring.
 
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cshoff

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, Missouri, USA
Considering the demonstrated ignorance of so many of these "certified instructors," I always get a chuckle when I see people putting that crap in their sig lines like it's some kind of badge of honor. To me, it's like walking into a brain surgeon's office and seeing a diploma that reads "Universidad de Ciudad de México, 1954." Not exactly reassuring.

And considering some of the comments made by "average Joe" gun owners on many of these forums, it sometimes makes me wonder if they are competent enough to actually own a gun. Still, I respect their Second Amendment rights and even go WAY out of my way to support them, just the same.

When you folks try to stereotype instructors as a group, it is no different than when others try to to stereotype folks who open carry as a group. A handful of "bad apples" doesn't make everyone else in the group "bad" by default. My organization has had over 800 students come through our classes over the past several years and NOT ONE of those students has ever been told that OC is illegal. Our students have OC explained to them exactly as it stands in this state (there are several folks here on this forum who have taken their CCW training from me and can attest to that fact). We don't try to sugar coat it, and we don't try to embellish.

But I digress, some of us "certified instructors" have put HUGE amounts of time and money into our development as instructors. We have taken our training very seriously. We've spent our own money to sit down with attorneys for hours as we go over statutes, case law, and precedents that will be relevant to our students. We participate in updated training each year. We've worked hard to develop safe, relevant, and affordable training courses. We devote time and money into being active at a legislative level. In short, we have taken it upon ourselves to dot our I's and cross our T's. If you think it's right to attempt to shame me for that, then shame on you. What you are doing is just as bad and just as wrong as what others are doing in regards to folks who open carry.
 

cshoff

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687
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, Missouri, USA
I just always figured the instructors feel they have to tell people that so people will tell there friends they have to take the class and the instructor keeps making money, if they tell people they dont need a permission to carry, many people may ask for a refund LOL

I'm not sure why any instructor would say something like that to a student other than they are just misinformed, or are just flat out lying. On that note, of the CCW students I've talked to specifically about OC, there are very, very few of them who have said that they would ever open carry other than in very rare circumstances, whether it's legal or not, and whether it requires a permit or not. Less than 1%, actually. Like it or not, most folks just do NOT have the desire to openly carry their gun, regardless of the laws on the matter. They would rather carry it concealed under most circumstances for any number of reasons.
 

cshoff

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, Missouri, USA
I was told by my CCW instructor, that was blessed, ordained, certified, or whatever the NRA does to their CCW instructors....that open carrying was illegal and not to do it. But that was five years ago....

The NRA does NOT have a "CCW instructor" discipline. There is no such thing as an NRA Certified CCW Instructor.
 

ManInBlack

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SW Idaho
And considering some of the comments made by "average Joe" gun owners on many of these forums, it sometimes makes me wonder if they are competent enough to actually own a gun. Still, I respect their Second Amendment rights and even go WAY out of my way to support them, just the same.

Owning (and carrying) a gun is an individual, inalienable right. So, your respect and support, while appreciated, are wholly unnecessary.

When you folks try to stereotype instructors as a group, it is no different than when others try to to stereotype folks who open carry as a group. A handful of "bad apples" doesn't make everyone else in the group "bad" by default. My organization has had over 800 students come through our classes over the past several years and NOT ONE of those students has ever been told that OC is illegal. Our students have OC explained to them exactly as it stands in this state (there are several folks here on this forum who have taken their CCW training from me and can attest to that fact). We don't try to sugar coat it, and we don't try to embellish.

So, who the hell is "you folks," Mr. No-Stereotypes? ;)

Again, those who open carry are exercising a constitutional right, which is different from "you folks," who are able to separate people from their money due to unconstitutional and immoral government enactments. You are a cog in the machine, whether you like it or not.

But I digress, some of us "certified instructors" have put HUGE amounts of time and money into our development as instructors. We have taken our training very seriously. We've spent our own money to sit down with attorneys for hours as we go over statutes, case law, and precedents that will be relevant to our students. We participate in updated training each year. We've worked hard to develop safe, relevant, and affordable training courses. We devote time and money into being active at a legislative level. In short, we have taken it upon ourselves to dot our I's and cross our T's.

Honestly, boo-freakin-hoo. Cry me a river. Perhaps you should be putting those HUGE amounts of time and money into the struggle to reassert our rights, rather than actively participating in a system that is wrong.

If you think it's right to attempt to shame me for that, then shame on you. What you are doing is just as bad and just as wrong as what others are doing in regards to folks who open carry.

I didn't even know who you were previous to your diatribe; ergo, I could not be attempting to shame you. Maybe you do deserve shame, maybe not; we all have to face a higher judge some day. However, I know that I will face Him saying that I did everything possible to allow my fellow citizens to exercise their God-given rights without government interference, not that I was a camp follower in Caesar's army.
 

cshoff

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, Missouri, USA
Owning (and carrying) a gun is an individual, inalienable right. So, your respect and support, while appreciated, are wholly unnecessary.

I never said anything at all about it being necessary. My point was, a stupid post on the internet made by a gun owner is not a reason to decry all gun owners. Likewise, a statement made by some instructor is not a reason to decry all instructors.

So, who the hell is "you folks," Mr. No-Stereotypes? ;)

If it wasn't obvious that I was referring to you, then let me make it very clear. YOU. And anyone else that arbitrarily bashes instructors as a group.

Again, those who open carry are exercising a constitutional right, which is different from "you folks," who are able to separate people from their money due to unconstitutional and immoral government enactments. You are a cog in the machine, whether you like it or not.

Buy a clue, since obviously you don't have one. In the first place, nobody has ever been forced to take training from me. Even those people who have come to me seeking state-compliant training to obtain a CCW endorsement have the choice to A) take their training somewhere else, or B) open carry without a permit if they so choose. Secondly, I have NEVER denied training to someone who legitimately could not afford it. I've given more classes away and discounted more classes than I can count. Third, in Missouri THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a concealed firearm. In fact, our Constitution SPECIFICALLY excludes the carrying of concealed firearms from being a protected right, so before you go shooting off at the mouth about something, do yourself a favor and do some research.

Honestly, boo-freakin-hoo. Cry me a river. Perhaps you should be putting those HUGE amounts of time and money into the struggle to reassert our rights, rather than actively participating in a system that is wrong.

Again, you don't have any idea of what you are talking about. There IS NO state requirement that somebody take training in this state so that they can carry a firearm. In addition, even though there is a training requirement to obtain a state-issued concealed weapons endorsement, there are plenty of other avenues a person can take to lawfully carry a concealed firearm in this state that do NOT require them to take training from a Missouri instructor. People that come to me for training do it because they WANT to. Because they feel that they have a NEED for the training for whatever personal reasons they might have. My organization only provides one state-compliant course out of the 11 courses that we offer. Ten of those courses have nothing to do with any state or government requirements. Like it or not, people are not born with defensive pistol skills. Many of them believe that attending good training classes is a efficient way to learn and develop those skills.

As to reasserting rights, not that it's any of your business, but I am much more active and involved than you will ever know, and probably more active legislatively than a good portion of the "advocates" here. We all have different ways that we go about trying to effect change. Just because the actions a person takes aren't posted on Youtube for the world to see doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I didn't even know who you were previous to your diatribe; ergo, I could not be attempting to shame you. Maybe you do deserve shame, maybe not; we all have to face a higher judge some day. However, I know that I will face Him saying that I did everything possible to allow my fellow citizens to exercise their God-given rights without government interference, not that I was a camp follower in Caesar's army.

Your attempt was to shame, or decry, ALL NRA instructors, as if they've somehow done something to personally harm you. I feel reasonably certain, being how I've actually met and worked with dozens of different NRA instructors, that the vast majority of them don't become instructors due to any government mandates. Most of them have a genuine interest in firearms and in teaching others about firearms. I'd also guess that most of them bring many more new shooters into the "fold" than you've ever thought about (of course, I could be wrong). So before you start preaching about how much "holier than than thou" you think you are, you might step back and realize that there are a lot of good people out there doing a lot of good things.
 

ManInBlack

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There's a reason that CCW instructors, along with LEOs and gun shop employees, have a reputation for being the Holy Trinity of misinformation about gun law. Maybe you don't fall into that category. However, I'll stand by my argument that when such instructors post their "certifications" (please read that with dripping sarcasm) it should raise more concerns than it alleviates.

Arguing with a statist is boring, and generally pointless, so I'll just respond to this:

Third, in Missouri THERE IS NO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a concealed firearm. In fact, our Constitution SPECIFICALLY excludes the carrying of concealed firearms from being a protected right, so before you go shooting off at the mouth about something, do yourself a favor and do some research.

So, Missouri is not part of the United States? The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land - "shall not be infringed." Work to change your state constitution instead of wasting your time and treasure getting worthless certifications.

I don't have a problem with training; I view it as necessary for anyone who chooses to carry a loaded firearm for defense. However, I do have a problem with those who not only participate in, but perpetuate the "mother may I" system.
 
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cshoff

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May 20, 2010
Messages
687
Location
, Missouri, USA
There's a reason that CCW instructors, along with LEOs and gun shop employees, have a reputation for being the Holy Trinity of misinformation about gun law. Maybe you don't fall into that category. However, I'll stand by my argument that when such instructors post their "certifications" (please read that with dripping sarcasm) it should raise more concerns than it alleviates.

Are you kidding me? Heck, research my post history here. Most of it has been to help correct misinformation posted by folks here who open carry. Some of the things people come up with are downright outrageous and even dangerous, and a lot of it is crap they've heard from LEO's they've talked to and "armchair lawyers" they've conversed with on this (and other) gun forums.

As to your "argument", your lack of credentials or bonafides certainly doesn't lend much credit to it. Combine that with your demonstrable misunderstanding of Missouri law, our Federal Constitution, and our State Constitution, and I don't find it to be a very compelling one.

Arguing with a statist is boring, and generally pointless, so I'll just respond to this:

And arguing with the clueless is, obviously, just as pointless. It would be different if you were actually open to being informed, but you are so stuck in thinking that you are right, that you can't be bothered to actually educate yourself or be educated.

So, Missouri is not part of the United States? The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land - "shall not be infringed." Work to change your state constitution instead of wasting your time and treasure getting worthless certifications.

No, at this point, the Second Amendment to our Constitution is NOT the "supreme law of the land". Again, you are demonstrating your flawed thinking. There is no incorporation of the Second Amendment. Without that incorporation, the Missouri Constitution, as it is written, it perfectly legal and Constitutional and it is compliant with case law and precedent at this time.

I don't have a problem with training; I view it as necessary for anyone who chooses to carry a loaded firearm for defense. However, I do have a problem with those who not only participate in, but perpetuate the "mother may I" system.

And I have a problem with those who don't know what they are talking about, yet are quick to speak in platitudes and generalizations. Statements like yours are the ones that others will look at and use to perpetuate stereotypes about people who open carry, as a group. If you could remove that chip from your shoulder for a minute, you might realize that some of us are on the same team and have the same goals in mind.
 

ManInBlack

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No, at this point, the Second Amendment to our Constitution is NOT the "supreme law of the land". Again, you are demonstrating your flawed thinking. There is no incorporation of the Second Amendment. Without that incorporation, the Missouri Constitution, as it is written, it perfectly legal and Constitutional and it is compliant with case law and precedent at this time.

A reasonable point, although it still is a natural right, even if unrecognized. I still say that participating in an immoral government program does not in any way further the end of it.

If you could remove that chip from your shoulder for a minute, you might realize that some of us are on the same team and have the same goals in mind.

So, no, we are not on the same team. It would be impossible for us to have the same goals in mind because we are moving in two opposite directions.
 
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cshoff

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, Missouri, USA
A reasonable point, although it still is a natural right, even if unrecognized.

With that, I would agree. It is my opinion that the right to "bear arms" should be an unrestricted one. However, the SCOTUS, to this point, has failed to agree with you and me. As it stands right now, it is a right that may legally be restricted (and no, I do NOT understand how that is congruent with "shall not be infringed").

I still say that participating in an immoral government program does not in any way further the end of it.

Government is not bound by morals, and never has been. Even if you take the issue of "concealed" firearms out of the picture, we are still left with Federal laws that we must deal with within each state. Primarily, I am talking about the laws that restrict firearms in "school zones". Like it or not, without that piece of paper (the permission slip) issued by the state in which the "school zone" is located, carry into one of those areas is a federal crime. I don't know about you, but most folks prefer to NOT be in jail while they work to effect change in state and federal laws. In a nutshell, this issue has much deeper implications than any concealed weapons permit program can be blamed for. This is going to take YEARS to untangle, if it is ever possible at all.

So, no, we are not on the same team. It would be impossible for us to have the same goals in mind because we are moving in two opposite directions.

I move in the direction of legislative action. I move in the direction of trying to understand the political realities we are faced with, and then finding the best way to operate within the law to attempt to effect their change. I don't advocate breaking the law, regardless of how much we might disagree with it. I don't advocate purposefully taking part in actions that will necessarily give legislators justification (in their minds) to implement more restrictions and more regulations. I don't know about you, but I'm not in a financial or familial position to take this thing and push it through the courts to see if MAYBE I can somehow eek out a win. This is going to require a much more multi-faceted approach, IMO.
 
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Gunslinger

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In my opinion, those who carry concealed under a permit, and feel that they are so much better for having groveled before and kissed the ring of government, are more dangerous than your average non-carrying statist.

BS. There is a time and a place for everything. If OC wasn't allowed, are you saying we should all disarm before CCing? It's that kind of comment that causes a lot in the CC community to think of OCers as out of control zealots.
 

Gunslinger

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Free, Colorado, USA
There's a reason that CCW instructors, along with LEOs and gun shop employees, have a reputation for being the Holy Trinity of misinformation about gun law. Maybe you don't fall into that category. However, I'll stand by my argument that when such instructors post their "certifications" (please read that with dripping sarcasm) it should raise more concerns than it alleviates.

Arguing with a statist is boring, and generally pointless, so I'll just respond to this:



So, Missouri is not part of the United States? The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land - "shall not be infringed." Work to change your state constitution instead of wasting your time and treasure getting worthless certifications.

I don't have a problem with training; I view it as necessary for anyone who chooses to carry a loaded firearm for defense. However, I do have a problem with those who not only participate in, but perpetuate the "mother may I" system.
The SCOTUS has 'specifically' excluded concealed carry from its incorporation of the 2A. Many very pro-gun states do, as well--although they are generally 'shall issue.'
 

ManInBlack

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BS. There is a time and a place for everything. If OC wasn't allowed, are you saying we should all disarm before CCing? It's that kind of comment that causes a lot in the CC community to think of OCers as out of control zealots.

I suggest reading more carefully. You completely missed an important qualifier.

In my opinion, those who carry concealed under a permit, and feel that they are so much better for having groveled before and kissed the ring of government, are more dangerous than your average non-carrying statist.

I am referring specifically to those who I have seen on this board who write idiotic things like, "I think people should be able to open carry without a permit, but I like that you have to get a permit to CC because it means that you are certified" or those who believe that they are any better trained or any better qualified to exercise their rights than a mere mundane simply because when government said "jump," they asked, "how high?"

EDIT: And, quite frankly, I could give a damn how the CC-only community views my OC. Unless they live in Alaska, Vermont, Arizona or Wyoming, it is they who have de facto admitted that they do not have a natural, God-given or Constitutional right to armed self-defense, and have blasphemously attributed to the government the authority to grant and take away something that is innate in every human being. They are not my allies, and I hope they enjoy their chains.

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." -Jesus Christ
 
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ComSec

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Feb 7, 2008
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Lees Summit, Missouri, USA
Can't we all just get along. LOL

Both cc and oc have merit, I'm hard core oc were my best friend is cc and he is an instructor. The problem ic is groups like in high school, one small difference and its all out war,
When I talk to people I tell them oc is not for everyone, and tell them cc is most likely best for them. People say I carry as a political statement but I carry for self defence nothing more, educating people is just a byproduct
 

LMTD

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So, no, we are not on the same team. It would be impossible for us to have the same goals in mind because we are moving in two opposite directions.


LMGDAO

You have to be a mark marchovia fan boy! Next thing we know your going to tell us cshoff is not a true patriot because he submitted a training program to the government that was found to meet or exceed requirements for a state statute that mandates citizen take such a course if they seek to hide their gun.

Your warped sense of reality and what someone stands for based solely on a hobby or occupation is some of the best comedy to hit this site in a long long time.

Here is a clue for you, no one has to have a permit to hide their gun! There is indeed a law that says if you get CAUGHT hiding your gun a permit is a defense against breaking that law, there are other options one can employ to attempt the same goal, retaining one's freedom.

One thing you are going to need to understand. When you jump up and down and say 2a is your permit for a concealed weapon unless you are uncle Ted it is far less convincing, however you could certainly use that as a defense should you happen to get caught hiding your firearm, it might not be adaquate to convince a judge but no one says you can't use it.

On the other hand most folks use the permit for said defense and while you may certainly argue that they are stupid for paying for it as that is your opinion, the reality is it remains none of your business what so ever what defense method someone chooses to employ.

Your choice of stereotyping others and then projecting your own uncertainty about your own choice of defense to try and garner support to make your choice more viable is seriously ironic humor, I enjoyed it a lot and will find it entertaining for some time.
 

ManInBlack

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...drivel...

You completely missed the point. I don't have a problem with people who get permits, as long as they are working toward the eventual goal of permitless carry. I do have a problem with those who believe in the permit system, with instructors who help to perpetuate that system, and with toolbags like yourself who have no idea what they are talking about (who the heck is Mark Marchovia?). Good day to you, sir.
 
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xdmcompact

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Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
You completely missed the point. I don't have a problem with people who get permits, as long as they are working toward the eventual goal of permitless carry. I do have a problem with those who believe in the permit system, with instructors who help to perpetuate that system, and with toolbags like yourself who have no idea what they are talking about (who the heck is Mark Marchovia?). Good day to you, sir.

So how is all this arguing furthering the cause. This post was about someone who was asked not to come back to a restaurant, because he was open carrying. Lets offer our help to resolve the issues at hand not to drive a wedge, between open and concealed carriers. All for one and one for all is the only way to move forward.
 
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