Wis. DOJ warns consumers about gun training

scm54449 · Jul 23, 2011

"Instructors" won't know until September or October if they will be recognized as "qualified" by the DOJ. And I hate the picture used in the story...

"The department is working on the rules that will govern whether training offered meets requirements under the law. DOJ official Brian O’Keefe said today that those won’t be done until September or October, and until then anyone advertising that they meet DOJ requirements under the law are mistaken."

http://www.marshfieldnewsherald.com...about-gun-training?odyssey=mod_sectionstories

thebigsd · Jul 23, 2011

I agree the picture is a little strange. I have been reading on here about people putting up signs offering training in WI. Perhaps the state should decide a little sooner than Sep. or Oct. what qualifies. Until then, I hope people don't waste money on a class that won't meet the requirements.

GLOCK21GB · Jul 23, 2011

thebigsd said:
I agree the picture is a little strange. I have been reading on here about people putting up signs offering training in WI. Perhaps the state should decide a little sooner than Sep. or Oct. what qualifies. Until then, I hope people don't waste money on a class that won't meet the requirements.

Specially from some out of state ( FLORIDA) training company...

McX · Jul 23, 2011

gun training?...........interesting concept, i've got my trained to sit, stay, and speak. for some odd reason though they refuse to roll over and play dead.

Captain Nemo · Jul 23, 2011

The following is from the published version of ACT 35.
The DoJ has very limited authority to dictate the kind of acceptable training. Doesn't mean it may try but I expect the gun rights groups will be all over it. Read (7)(b) and then read it again.

(2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE. (a) The department
shall issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to
any individual who is not disqualified under sub. (3) and
who completes the application process specified in sub.
(7). A license to carry a concealed weapon issued under
this section shall meet the requirements specified in sub.
(2m).
(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations,
or requirements that are not expressly provided
for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content
of a license.

davegran · Jul 23, 2011

Thank you, DOJ.

This has been picked up by the Associated Press, so let's hope that it gets wide exposure in every AP-associated publication. There are too many fly-by-nights preying on the uninformed.

MKEgal · Jul 23, 2011

I agree people should be aware of what the law says in re acceptable training...
including the DOJ & media which report on the issue.
The law sets out pretty clearly what training is acceptable.
(Starts on pg 8 of the PDF of the law.)
DOJ has no say in what they WILL accept.

BROKENSPROKET · Jul 23, 2011

BS!!! "....are mistaken". ?????? "May be mistaken" would be more accurate. I am sure that many instructors that claim the will meet DOJ requirements will far exceed them. Maybe this where only NRA instructors get certified.

LaBomba · Jul 23, 2011

Wakey wakey peeples

For WI residents, DOJ has COMPLETE control over WHOSE training qualifies. It gets to certify qualifying instructors, including deciding who is "able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training" for training courses available to the general public (Section 38 of 2011 Act 35).

That means DOJ could specify a training standard for trainers, minimum live-fire experience, training experience, a written ertification test, physical requirements such as eyesight, experience with all of the weapons covered, etc.

And DOJ DOES NOT have to promulgate a rule specifying who will be certified. It will do it by internal guidance, which means no public hearing, no legislative oversight, no input from anybody outside of the Agency except at DOJ's invitation and pleasure.

To be certified, an instructor must also be eligible for a WI license....which means non-residents cannot qualify to provide training available to the general public (v. training for law enforcement).

oak1971 · Jul 23, 2011

Its about time someone put an end to the carpet-baggers running amok.

dangerousman · Jul 23, 2011

LaBomba said:
To be certified, an instructor must also be eligible for a WI license....which means non-residents cannot qualify to provide training available to the general public (v. training for law enforcement).

Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.

mrjam2jab · Jul 23, 2011

DOJ "can" certify instructors...but an instructor does not "have" to be certified by the DOJ to qualify.

(4) Training requirements. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the department of natural resources.
b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd. 1.
3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
(b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training.
2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

LaBomba · Jul 23, 2011

dangerousman said:
Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.

Dangerousman, I was surprised too. Here's why I think it does say exactly that. First, s. 175.60(4)(b)1 reads in part:

"To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
following criteria:
a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
weapon. "

Okay, so what's sub. (3)? It's the language spelling out who is eligible for a WI license... and only WI residents qualify:

"(3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
of the following applies:
(a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
(b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.
(c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
firearm under s. 941.29.
(d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) or
969.03 (1) (c).
(e) The individual is on release under s. 969.01 and
the individual may not possess a dangerous weapon as a
condition of the release.
f) The individual is not a Wisconsin resident.
(g) The individual has not provided proof of training
as described under sub. (4) (a).
--------------------------------------
That's separate from the portion of the law that spells out how WI will recognize other state permits, for the purpose of allowing individuals to carry concealed. If out-of-state license holders were eligible, the certification section would have had to explicitly include people who hold licenses issued by states recognized by DOJ.

davegran · Jul 23, 2011

Unpack those statutes....

dangerousman said:
Does it really say that? I think it only says that an instructor has to be qualified to carry a concealed weapon. Out of state people are qualified by virtue of their own state's license or permit.

Here are the requirements to be an instructor:

(b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the
purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list
of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the
department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
following criteria:
a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
weapon.
b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge
required for providing firearms safety and training.
2. The department may not require firing live ammu-
nition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

And sub. (3) says this:

(3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
of the following applies:
(a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
(b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.
(c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
firearm under s. 941.29.
(d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) or
969.03 (1) (c).
(e) The individual is on release under s. 969.01 and
the individual may not possess a dangerous weapon as a
condition of the release.
(f) The individual is not a Wisconsin resident.
(g) The individual has not provided proof of training
as described under sub. (4) (a).

What do you think? Looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor....

ETA: Looks like LaBamba and I agree!

McX · Jul 23, 2011

the ads are in the paper still every day here, see them at gas stations too. on a recent visit to a business client, his secretary staff all surrounded me, asking about the permit, as they and their husbands wanted to get it. i told them to hold out for the WisCarry class to hit this area, and i would let them know. they said they called on all the other classes, and they were full up. looks like some are making alot of money off of something that may prove worthless.

LaBomba · Jul 23, 2011

mrjam2jab said:
DOJ "can" certify instructors...but an instructor does not "have" to be certified by the DOJ to qualify.

I agree that there are several types of training that do not entail DOJ-certified instructors. Of those, the type of greatest interest to people who aren't LEOs or service may be training conducted by a natl. or state group that certifies instructors. And even then, DOJ gets to decide what is a "national" or "state" organization, and what qualifies as "certification" by a group. It's going to involve more than 3 guys raising a toast at a fish fry near a state line, I promise you. Plus, DOJ certification is directly required for:

"c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
...and
e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department."

apjonas · Jul 23, 2011

What the heck does DoJ know anyway?

Why worry? It hath been posted that DoJ has no rule making authority. The law is crystal clear. We have experts here at OCDO that have explained that "carpetbagger" courses won't count but the MD online course will. Case closed. Oh, and signs have no legal weight.

AaronS · Jul 23, 2011

davegran said:
Here are the requirements to be an instructor:And sub. (3) says this:What do you think? Looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor....

ETA: Looks like LaBamba and I agree!

I would have to also agree.
I don't understand it, my Utah permit will get me my Wisconsin, but the man that gave me the class for the Utah is not qualified to give a class in Wisconsin (for the Wis)? And he can never become qualified unless he moves to this State...?

apjonas · Jul 23, 2011

The Obvious Conclusion

AaronS said:
I would have to also agree.
I don't understand it, my Utah permit will get me my Wisconsin, but the man that gave me the class for the Utah is not qualified to give a class in Wisconsin (for the Wis)? And he can never become qualified unless he moves to this State...?

is that the legislature determined that experience with concealed carry that did not end up with the applicant in jail is sufficient training. The license or permit is simply a proxy for such experience. As mentioned before, an OOSL that itself required no training for issuance is accceptable as a substitute for training for a WiCWL. So it doesn't matter if the instructor does or does not qualify to teach a WI course. He is two steps removed from the activity that the legislature deemed important.

phred · Jul 23, 2011

Before Nov.1st?

From the Wausau Daily Herald:
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/ar.../7daysarchives/Concealed-carry-class-Saturday

After completion of the $99 class, gun owners can mail a certificate and $50 to the state Department of Justice, which will conduct a background check and send back a concealed weapons permit before Nov. 1, when Wisconsin's concealed carry law takes effect, according to Chandler Myler, an Equip 2 Conceal instructor.

Do they know something we don't know?

Wis. DOJ warns consumers about gun training

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