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Wis. DOJ warns consumers about gun training

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
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3,428
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northern wis
IF they get too nasty very body well just take a hunters safety course. Simple cheap and written into the law.

Personily I am waiting to see what DOJ does before offering a course.
 

safcrkr

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318
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Vilas County, WI, ,
All this is a moot point. DOJ can say an instructor must walk on water blindfolded and have a DOB of Feb. 29th, to be certified and it won't matter. If the class will qualify you for a UT, MN, FL permit, you can sidestep DOJ's "instructor certification requirements" entirely by getting a permit in another State and using that permit to get a WI permit. The law CLEARLY STATES that ANY out-of-state permit, past or present, is an automatic qualifier in WI. OK... let's see what the doom-sayers can do with this one. Sheesh. I thought the anti-gunners were the ones who were paranoid, and dabbled in the outlandish "what-ifs". Since when did DOJ = anti-gun Gestapo?

Any firearm safety class taught by a NRA certified instructor, or an AACFI certified instructor, WILL be accepted by DOJ... no ifs, ands, or buts. WTF do you think the law referred to when it said "certified by a national organization" if it did not mean AACFI (American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors) or NRA? What other "national organizations" are there?

Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

All this paranoia over an A.P. story? The same A.P. that says a licensee can't carry within 1,000' of a school? The same A.P. who says in this very article that "participates in shooting competition" is still a qualifier in WI? The ONLY amendment to SB93 in either the Senate or Assembly floor debates that passed, eliminated this. A.P. doesn't know it's arse from a hole in the ground.
 
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davegran

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Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
All this is a moot point. DOJ can say an instructor must walk on water blindfolded and have a DOB of Feb. 29th, to be certified and it won't matter. If the class will qualify you for a UT, MN, FL permit, you can sidestep DOJ's "instructor certification requirements" entirely by getting a permit in another State and using that permit to get a WI permit. The law CLEARLY STATES that ANY out-of-state permit, past or present, is an automatic qualifier in WI. OK... let's see what the doom-sayers can do with this one. Sheesh. I thought the anti-gunners were the ones who were paranoid, and dabbled in the outlandish "what-ifs". Since when did DOJ = anti-gun Gestapo?

Any firearm safety class taught by a NRA certified instructor, or an AACFI certified instructor, WILL be accepted by DOJ... no ifs, ands, or buts. WTF do you think the law referred to when it said "certified by a national organization" if it did not mean AACFI (American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors) or NRA? What other "national organizations" are there?

Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

All this paranoia over an A.P. story? The same A.P. that says a licensee can't carry within 1,000' of a school? The same A.P. who says in this very article that "participates in shooting competition" is still a qualifier in WI? The ONLY amendment to SB93 in either the Senate or Assembly floor debates that passed, eliminated this. A.P. doesn't know it's arse from a hole in the ground.
Thank you for your clarity and for putting this issue back in perspective....
 

phred

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Mar 14, 2010
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Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

Yup, in fact if you take an OOS class like Utah, you WILL get the UT permit as a bonus. A little more money and a little more flexibility. More people than not, especially here, are already "qualified". Come Nov. 1st, just fill out the paperwork, write a check and send it in.
 

safcrkr

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Messages
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Location
Vilas County, WI, ,
Yup, in fact if you take an OOS class like Utah, you WILL get the UT permit as a bonus. A little more money and a little more flexibility. More people than not, especially here, are already "qualified". Come Nov. 1st, just fill out the paperwork, write a check and send it in.

The only person I know that wants a permit and is NOT currently qualified is my wife... but she's in no hurry. As of Nov. 1st she can have a loaded handgun in her car. That's all she's concerned about for now. Once the "training rush" is over, she'll take a UT class, and get both UT & WI. That way she can carry when she goes to MN to visit our daughter (who has a MN permit).

I've got 6 differant documents that I can send in, that WILL meet the training criteria. I've got 3 out-of-state CC permits (all required training), an AACFI training certificate from a MN cc permit class (taught in Eagle River in 2005, by a AACFI certified, WI resident... BDJ-LTD). I also have a hunter safety certificate, and a hunter safety certified instructor certificate. Any one of those 6 will meet the training requirements.
 
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LaBomba

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Tosa
I've got 6 differant documents that I can send in, that WILL meet the training criteria. I've got 3 out-of-state CC permits (all required training), an AACFI training certificate from a MN cc permit class (taught in Eagle River in 2005, by a AACFI certified, WI resident... BDJ-LTD). I also have a hunter safety certificate, and a hunter safety certified instructor certificate. Any one of those 6 will meet the training requirements.

Good on you! Will there be options for meeting the training? Yes, obviously. To the point of this thread, though, is all of the training being sold right now to people who aren't as lucky going to qualify? Nope.

It disturbs me that some of the good folks who've waited a long time for CC in WI are going to have the sweetness of victory soured by the bitterness of wasted money and time when it turns out they ponied up for training that doesn't measure up.
 

Captain Nemo

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Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
LaBomba:

The DNR hunter safety course is open to anyone. It has a minimum of 10 hours training with one session of field (range) time. The cost is $10 and guaranteed to qualify as acceptable training for a CC permit. It is offered in every county. No reason anybody has to pony up a bunch of money if they don't want to. The only down side is that the course is only offered two or three times a year. The most common time is just before hunting season which is fast approaching.

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement/safety/hunted.htm
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
The only person I know that wants a permit and is NOT currently qualified is my wife... but she's in no hurry. As of Nov. 1st she can have a loaded handgun in her car. That's all she's concerned about for now. Once the "training rush" is over, she'll take a UT class, and get both UT & WI. That way she can carry when she goes to MN to visit our daughter (who has a MN permit).

I've got 6 differant documents that I can send in, that WILL meet the training criteria. I've got 3 out-of-state CC permits (all required training), an AACFI training certificate from a MN cc permit class (taught in Eagle River in 2005, by a AACFI certified, WI resident... BDJ-LTD). I also have a hunter safety certificate, and a hunter safety certified instructor certificate. Any one of those 6 will meet the training requirements.

I took my AACFI Minn ccw class from BDJ too about 6 years ago, Bill Schmitz is a real nice guy.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
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Chandler, AZ
All this is a moot point. DOJ can say an instructor must walk on water blindfolded and have a DOB of Feb. 29th, to be certified and it won't matter. If the class will qualify you for a UT, MN, FL permit, you can sidestep DOJ's "instructor certification requirements" entirely by getting a permit in another State and using that permit to get a WI permit. The law CLEARLY STATES that ANY out-of-state permit, past or present, is an automatic qualifier in WI. OK... let's see what the doom-sayers can do with this one. Sheesh. I thought the anti-gunners were the ones who were paranoid, and dabbled in the outlandish "what-ifs". Since when did DOJ = anti-gun Gestapo?

Any firearm safety class taught by a NRA certified instructor, or an AACFI certified instructor, WILL be accepted by DOJ... no ifs, ands, or buts. WTF do you think the law referred to when it said "certified by a national organization" if it did not mean AACFI (American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors) or NRA? What other "national organizations" are there?

Anyone with a WI hunter safety class certificate, taught by the WI DNR, WILL be accepted by DOJ. Anyone with an out-of-state permit WILL be accepted by DOJ. Get over it, already.

All this paranoia over an A.P. story? The same A.P. that says a licensee can't carry within 1,000' of a school? The same A.P. who says in this very article that "participates in shooting competition" is still a qualifier in WI? The ONLY amendment to SB93 in either the Senate or Assembly floor debates that passed, eliminated this. A.P. doesn't know it's arse from a hole in the ground.

Very well put!

+1
 

Captain Nemo

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1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
What part of this is hard to understand? The DoJ has little authority on what qualifies for proof of training and what does not.


(2) ISSUANCE AND SCOPE OF LICENSE. (a) The department
shall issue a license to carry a concealed weapon to
any individual who is not disqualified under sub. (3) and
who completes the application process specified in sub.
(7). A license to carry a concealed weapon issued under
this section shall meet the requirements specified in sub.
(2m).
(b) The department may not impose conditions, limitations,
or requirements that are not expressly provided
for in this section on the issuance, scope, effect, or content
of a license.
 

Captain Nemo

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Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
I think too much is being read into the role the DoJ has in certifying instuctors. There are three classes of instructors. Those certified by a national organization, those certified by a state organization and those that wish to be certified so they can conduct firearm safety instruction in order that Wisconsin residents can satisfy the ACT 35 training requirements. I think ACT 35 presumes that instructors certified by a national or state organization automatically qualify to instruct in Wisconsin providing they have a concealed carry permit issued by some state. I furthur think the intent of the DoJ certification is to provide an avenue for instructors that are not certified by a national or state organization to obtain certification so they can qualify to teach firearm instruction to Wisconsin residents. They too must have a concealed carry permit, either a qualified out of state permit or a wisconsin permit, in which case they must be a Wisconsin resident. I don't think there is any intent in ACT 35 to give the DoJ go or no go authority over which national or state certified instructors will be allowed to train Wisconsin residents.

That doesn't mean the DoJ may not attempt to flex their muscles and we have to be watchful of that.

Just my opinion.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Chandler, AZ
I think too much is being read into the role the DoJ has in certifying instuctors. There are three classes of instructors. Those certified by a national organization, those certified by a state organization and those that wish to be certified so they can conduct firearm safety instruction in order that Wisconsin residents can satisfy the ACT 35 training requirements. I think ACT 35 presumes that instructors certified by a national or state organization automatically qualify to instruct in Wisconsin providing they have a concealed carry permit issued by some state. I furthur think the intent of the DoJ certification is to provide an avenue for instructors that are not certified by a national or state organization to obtain certification so they can qualify to teach firearm instruction to Wisconsin residents. They too must have a concealed carry permit, either a qualified out of state permit or a wisconsin permit, in which case they must be a Wisconsin resident. I don't think there is any intent in ACT 35 to give the DoJ go or no go authority over which national or state certified instructors will be allowed to train Wisconsin residents.

That doesn't mean the DoJ may not attempt to flex their muscles and we have to be watchful of that.

Just my opinion.

I agree with both of your posts above...
 

mrjam2jab

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Apr 26, 2009
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Levittown, Pennsylvania, USA
I think too much is being read into the role the DoJ has in certifying instuctors. There are three classes of instructors. Those certified by a national organization, those certified by a state organization and those that wish to be certified so they can conduct firearm safety instruction in order that Wisconsin residents can satisfy the ACT 35 training requirements. I think ACT 35 presumes that instructors certified by a national or state organization automatically qualify to instruct in Wisconsin providing they have a concealed carry permit issued by some state. I furthur think the intent of the DoJ certification is to provide an avenue for instructors that are not certified by a national or state organization to obtain certification so they can qualify to teach firearm instruction to Wisconsin residents. They too must have a concealed carry permit, either a qualified out of state permit or a wisconsin permit, in which case they must be a Wisconsin resident. I don't think there is any intent in ACT 35 to give the DoJ go or no go authority over which national or state certified instructors will be allowed to train Wisconsin residents.

That doesn't mean the DoJ may not attempt to flex their muscles and we have to be watchful of that.

Just my opinion.


That's what I was saying back in Post #12...you just said it much more eloquently than I. :)

Although, I do have to question

I think ACT 35 presumes that instructors certified by a national or state organization automatically qualify to instruct in Wisconsin providing they have a concealed carry permit issued by some state.

I see where a person to be certified by WIDOJ must be "qualified" to carry...but I don't see where they must actually possess a permit. And I don't see anything about a person who is certified by NRA having to have a permit from their respective state.

Perhaps I'm just missing that part?
 

davegran

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Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
....I see where a person to be certified by WIDOJ must be "qualified" to carry...but I don't see where they must actually possess a permit. And I don't see anything about a person who is certified by NRA having to have a permit from their respective state.

Perhaps I'm just missing that part?
Here are the requirements to be an instructor:
(b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the
purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list
of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the
department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
following criteria:

a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
weapon.

b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge
required for providing firearms safety and training.
2. The department may not require firing live ammu-
nition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).
And sub. (3) says this:
(3) RESTRICTIONS ON ISSUING A LICENSE. The depart-
ment shall issue a license under this section to an individ-
ual who submits an application under sub. (7) unless any
of the following applies:

(a) The individual is less than 21 years of age.
(b) The individual is prohibited under federal law
from possessing a firearm that has been transported in
interstate or foreign commerce.
(c) The individual is prohibited from possessing a
firearm under s. 941.29.
(d) The court has prohibited the individual from pos-
sessing a dangerous weapon under s. 969.02 (3) (c) or
969.03 (1) (c).
(e) The individual is on release under s. 969.01 and
the individual may not possess a dangerous weapon as a
condition of the release.
(f) The individual is not a Wisconsin resident.
(g) The individual has not provided proof of training
as described under sub. (4) (a).
What do you think? They don't actually have to possess a Wisconsin license but it looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor.... An out of state permit holder can only qualify to carry in Wisconsin under sub. (1), not sub. (3).
 
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paul@paul-fisher.com

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Here are the requirements to be an instructor:And sub. (3) says this:What do you think? They don't actually have to possess a Wisconsin license but it looks like non-residents don't qualify to be a instructor....

Don't forget, it says:

b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the
purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list
of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the
department
as an instructor, a person must meet all of the
following criteria:
a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed
weapon.
b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge
required for providing firearms safety and training.
2. The department may not require firing live ammu-
nition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

So.... if the NRA or some other national organization certifies them, this doesn't apply, at least as I read it.
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

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Messages
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Location
Chandler, AZ
What part of don't you understand?

Please look at

(4) Training requirements. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates the individual completed any of the following:
a. The hunter education program established under s. 29.591 or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by the department of natural resources.
b. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
c. A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency or, if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by the department, by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
d. A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by the department.
2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd. 1.
3. A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
4. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
(b) 1. The department shall certify instructors for the purposes of par. (a) 1. c. and e. and shall maintain a list of instructors that it certifies. To be certified by the department as an instructor, a person must meet all of the following criteria:
a. Be qualified under sub. (3) to carry a concealed weapon.
b. Be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge required for providing firearms safety and training.
2. The department may not require firing live ammunition to meet the training requirements under par. (a).

That is a small portion of it. It has a couple 'OR's. So, if I am NOT certified by a national organization, I can get certified by the department.

So, the way I read it, instructors have to be certified by a national training organization OR the DOJ.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
It looks like the debate is whether ALL instructors mentioned in the new law must be certified by DOJ (in which case, yes, only WI residents would qualify),
or
whether it's an "or" clause - meaning that in addition to people certified by a national or state org., people who don't fit those categories can be certified by DOJ - and those certified by an org. other than DOJ do not have to be WI residents.

I think it's an or clause.

LaBomba said:
For WI residents, DOJ has COMPLETE control over WHOSE training qualifies.
It's written into the law (starts on pg 8 of the PDF), so DOJ has little leeway in what it will accept.
It may decide on standards for the instructors it certifies, at least as far as proving competence to teach,
& I suppose it will have to rule on the MD class (whether the MD State Police Training Commission is a LEA or not),
but beyond that they don't seem to have much wiggle room.

LaBomba said:
DOJ certification is directly required for:
"c. A firearms safety or training course... if the course is taught by an instructor who is certified
by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors
or
by the department,

[the course is offered] by a technical college, a college or a university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school."

...and
"e. A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor
who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors
or
who is certified by the department."
Both of those examples give 2 groups of instructors:
certified by a national or state group
or
certified by the DOJ.
See the bottom of pg 8, top of pg 9: "to be certified by the department as an instructor..."

apjonas said:
signs have no legal weight.
Let us know how that idea works out for you...

safcrkr said:
As of Nov. 1st she can have a loaded handgun in her car.
Just be careful of school zones!
 
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