Apartment security says I can't OC on apartment property?

40beretta · Jul 23, 2011

Hey fellow OCers! I've been a lurker for a while (love your pamphlets!) but now I have a situation you might all be interested in.

I purchased a Beretta PX4 Storm .40 a couple months ago and gorgeous, cheap UTG leg-drop holster and now I OC everywhere I can (you should see the looks I get in Wal-Mart, especially being in North Las Vegas). I quickly got spun up on OC laws and even acted out a few scenarios with other OC'ing friends in the event we were ever approached by an LEO. Well, lo and behold, the only time I've yet to be approached was by the security guards at my apartment complex. I had just come home from an outing at Buffalo Wild Wings and swung by the mailbox to check my mail (I believe it was a Saturday night, could have been a Friday, who knows). As I'm coming out of the mailroom, the two security officers call me over to their car. They introduce themselves as Lee and Vinny. Lee is apparently Vinny's boss and Lee runs most of the apartment security in the area. I've seen both of them around before. Anyway, these two gentlemen are more than courteous (though Vinny seemed to be nervous whenever my hand was near my firearm, so I tried to keep my arms folded across my chest) and Lee even showed me a couple of the guns he had in his car. We chatted back and forth about OC laws, plans for CC, military life (I'm active duty), etc. Lee informs me that it is against apartment policy to OC on the property. We then talk about how that sounds like crap and that it isn't fair, yada yada. He assures me that this is in my lease. Eventually, we call it a night because I think Vinny had to get back to making his rounds, so I bid them a good evening and told them I looked forward to seeing them again and that if they ever needed me, I was in building such-and-such.

Well, I completely forget to look at my copy of the lease or talk to the apartment managers until this evening. I just spent 20 minutes carefully reading through all of the paperwork I've ever received from my apartment managers and not a paper mentions anything about guns, open-carrying, or even discharging of firearms. There's a whole page on illegal drug use and gang activity, but the word "firearm" fails to appear anywhere on the page. I have also never seen a "no firearms" sign on the apartment grounds. It would appear that I have been given false information. What do you all think? Have any of you ever heard of such a rule? I'm aware of private business displaying "no firearm" signs, though they're completely not legally bound by any NRS, but never an entire housing property. For anyone curious, I reside at Presidio Apartments, and the head company is Picerne.

Tomorrow morning, I plan on going out to the range with a bunch of friends and a fresh newbie for a few hours, then I'm going to return to the complex OC'ing and walk into the front office and ask them about it. So I guess I'll check-in tomorrow and let you all know how it went.

MKEgal · Jul 23, 2011

This is one case where I agree with "don't ask, don't tell".
Unless & until someone in MANAGEMENT says something to you, preferably in writing, don't say a thing.
But be sure you know both your lease & the laws - laws about carrying as well as laws about eviction.

wrightme · Jul 23, 2011

OC.

If approached by security again, inform them that you have reviewed your lease agreement and the applicable policies (or whatever the things were called) and that nothing prevents your activity. Then go on about your business.

As mentioned, going to management should not be needed, unless security comes up with a policy paper that is different than the one you were given.

The Big Guy · Jul 23, 2011

The next time, if there is a next time, tell them that until management can show you a copy of a signed lease that states specifically that you will not carry on the property, you will continue going about your business. That any further contact by them without production of said document will be considered harassment. That as a resident there you have the right to come and go from your home and use the facilities that you have paid for. Otherwise, do not force the issue. Let them make the next move.

The only real problem I see is that if management does not like your lack of cooperation, they may not renew your lease.

TBG

DocWalker · Jul 23, 2011

The Big Guy said:
The next time, if there is a next time, tell them that until management can show you a copy of a signed lease that states specifically that you will not carry on the property, you will continue going about your business. That any further contact by them without production of said document will be considered harassment. That as a resident there you have the right to come and go from your home and use the facilities that you have paid for. Otherwise, do not force the issue. Let them make the next move.

The only real problem I see is that if management does not like your lack of cooperation, they may not renew your lease.

TBG

100% agree, let them make the next move. If they press the issue let managment know you will seek a legal suit for harrassment. If they decide to have you sign a new lease when you have to renew your lease then move. Nevada has tons of places and cheap, with you being military they know they will get their rent and that you are a law abiding citizen. Let management know if you get continued harrassment and if they try to put up signs then they are breaking the origional lease and you can move and they will be responsiable for all moving costs.....you can tell them that you will also let the base housing office and base legal office know about their actions. If they change or break your lease the for no reason than the base can bar military personnel from renting there...they could be (black balled), I have seen it happen in my 23 years in the USAF.

Vegassteve · Jul 23, 2011

Maybe get a holster that doesnt stick out so much as well. A drop leg? Really? For normal EDOC? And you OC in wild wings? which one?

armaborealis · Jul 23, 2011

First off, good luck with whatever course you pursue.

I think if I were in your shoes I would seriously consider the repercussions of moving out if your lease is not renewed. How much will it cost you in time or sweat to move all your stuff? You may decide that it is just simpler to be discreet and cover up if it will be a huge ass pain to move your things.

There is also the issue that management can make your life very difficult. The police can get called for an "erratic man with a gun" and you could end up like Eric Scott. MX requests can go unfulfilled. Rent checks can be "misplaced." Yes, those things might be in the grey area legally speaking, or just flat out wrong. However, it could happen, and you might need to sue to make it right. I doubt that JAG would help you out; I've reviewed the Nellis AFB privately owned weapons policy and it is certainly not gun owner friendly, and I assume that JAG reviews such policies before they go public. That means you might be on your own and making it "right" could be expensive. Your option if management makes life a living hell is to either sue, deal with it, or leave -- and if you break your lease early you're likely going to be charged fees.

Along those lines, I personally would consider a different holster selection. Drop leg holsters are great if you're wearing hard body armor (to keep the draw clear) or maybe in vehicles. If you're doing much walking around I personally find them to chafe and be uncomfortable. Beyond that, they draw a LOT of attention. A simple OWB Fobus or Bladetech holster with a black polymer gun against a dark colored shirt is much more discreet, even for open carry. If you decide you want to avoid hassles from management you can just cover up while on the property by untucking your shirt. Yes, it will print like crazy, but it is much more discreet than a thigh drop. An IWB holster with tucked in shirt is still in the open but is even more low profile than an OWB.

The other option would be to directly discuss this with management. If you can address the issue frankly and openly then you could potentially put it behind you. For example, you could make an app't to speak with the property manager and complain about being hassled by security; you can be polite about it and thank them for having vigilant and aware security guards, but also politely ask management to train the guards. A better compromise if the guards see a "man with a gun" might be to ask them to verify if the person is a resident who is "supposd to be there" before taking further action. I live in the same area and frankly I'd be disappointed if our private security failed to confront and identify people with guns walking around the complex at night. Of course, it could backfire and you could find yourself with a specific policy on the books to deal with and/or hostile management.

I think context is everything. I'm a strong supporter of the RKBA and like OC as well but there are appropriate times and places to be a bit more discreet, especially on private property, after dark, in bad neighberhoods. In such a context, it is argueably reasonable for a private gated community with their own security to be suspicious of armed people wandering around. That is what the security is paid to do, after all. It really comes down to how much hassle you're willing to deal with.

Personally, I'd go the OWB route and just untuck my shirt on the strong side before hopping in my car if security was around. Then, a few months before I planned on moving anyways, I'd see if there could be a "teachable moment" with management. That lets you try and educate them on OC but also minimizes adverse personal consequences.

RabbiVJ · Jul 23, 2011

luckily my apartment complex doesnt have a security...the only thing my lease covers is Illegal Discharges...

28kfps · Jul 23, 2011

Vegassteve said:
Maybe get a holster that doesnt stick out so much as well. A drop leg? Really? For normal EDOC? And you OC in wild wings? which one?

40B you have received some good input on the main issue however, I agree the drop leg holsters are usually advertized as a tactical holsters. For civilian everyday carry might be what I will call a little flaunty. That is unless you are coming home from being on duty. Welcome to OC 40B.

DON`T TREAD ON ME · Jul 23, 2011

Good ground work. I encourage you to do exactly what you have been. you have made your own choices and for your own reasons. If they "contact" you again you I would flip the script, and take a little more initiative.

First off they may not want to confront you when they see that your "legal" behavior has not changed. However changing your behavior could be taken as a sign of "compliance" (think schoolyard bully mentality)

Next thought is, the remedy for a private property owner who does not want you to OC is to ask you to leave. Problem is this is where you live, and the MGMT is party to that. You jumped through their hoops and got approval to live there from them. They presented you with their lease which you signed. you seem to have the high ground here.

Try to record any further conversations with them. I would ask them these questions when confronted and try to stay on target, because they will want to turn the conversation.

Are you trespassing me off of this property?

are you denying me my right to self defense?

Both answers will most likely be no, then thank them let them know that you are busy and cannot "chat" this time Catcha later (with a fistbump).

(hint) Sounds simple, but do not keep your recorder on your "Strong" side.

And Props on the holster.

Another thought came to mind, Since the landlords remedy for you not following the rules would be either administrative, (fines etc.) or civil (lawsuit) what would give these punks any Idea that they are there to enforce anything. I would be inclined to tell them "if I am breaking a law, then call the cops." (not suggesting) "If you think I am breaking a rule send it in writing." do not deal with them on the side walk.

and do not let them bully you into tucking your paid in blood rights under your shirt.

40beretta · Jul 23, 2011

Woah! Lots of feedback! Thank you all for taking interest and giving me advice and suggestions! Unfortunately, I spent too much time in the sun and had a big beer at lunch, so I took a nap after shooting, and I didn't actually make it to the apartment office. After reading all your responses, I think I'm just going to stick to the "don't ask, don't tell" idea and just not approach them (the apartment managers) directly about the subject and wait to see if they come to me. I will continue to OC on the property in the meantime though. The security guards told me that they are mostly worried about someone in the apartment complex calling them or the cops and reporting "some dude walking around with a gun" so they just want to make sure I'm not hassled later on. I guess that means I have to give up my rights to do so (not happening). My lease is actually up in 40 days, and aside from this issue, I've never had any problems in the 2 years I've lived here. I was actually planning on renewing my lease because I'm PCS'ing to Europe in a few months too (and I sadly cannot carry over there at all!). Probably best not to try and incite a legal issue with them.

Also, sorry if some of you think the leg drop holster is excessive. I will admit, it definitely gives off the cop vibe or whatnot, however, I really like it. It's quick to put on and it's light. Also, it keeps my 40 right there at my hand in the event the unthinkable happens. I mean, that's actually why I wear it.

Oh, and someone asked which BWW's I OC in - Durango/215N. Mostly late at night. All the bartenders and servers (and even the cooks) know me by first name.

Vegassteve · Jul 24, 2011

40beretta;1579952 Oh said:
I asked because several of us have been tossed from different BWWs around town because they have a corp policy.

40beretta · Jul 24, 2011

Vegassteve said:
I asked because several of us have been tossed from different BWWs around town because they have a corp policy.

Weird. I get nothing but smiles when I go in there. Maybe it's because I go in really late at night, like around midnight or 1 am.

Also, how do you have a corporate policy disregarding freedom? Wtf

OC-moto450r · Jul 24, 2011

DVC · Jul 24, 2011

The Big Guy said:
TThat any further contact by them without production of said document will be considered harassment.

I disagree with this one line. These guys were pleasant and seemed to be pro-gun. Don't get adversarial unless they do first.

Inform them that you looked all through the lease and found nothing, so "looks like we're ALL off the hook here."

The Big Guy · Jul 24, 2011

DVC said:
I disagree with this one line. These guys were pleasant and seemed to be pro-gun. Don't get adversarial unless they do first.

Inform them that you looked all through the lease and found nothing, so "looks like we're ALL off the hook here."

Their contact about the issue is, and on any future contact will be, adversarial. They are trying to exert control over him. He does not have to be nasty about it, they obviously were not, but simply state the fact that he wants no further contact about the issue. Your line "looks like we're ALL off the hook here" is great but I seriously doubt they will drop it at that. The point is to be ready for either eventuality.

TBG

armaborealis · Jul 24, 2011

40beretta said:
After reading all your responses, I think I'm just going to stick to the "don't ask, don't tell" idea and just not approach them (the apartment managers) directly about the subject and wait to see if they come to me. I will continue to OC on the property in the meantime though. The security guards told me that they are mostly worried about someone in the apartment complex calling them or the cops and reporting "some dude walking around with a gun" so they just want to make sure I'm not hassled later on. I guess that means I have to give up my rights to do so (not happening).

My lease is actually up in 40 days, and aside from this issue, I've never had any problems in the 2 years I've lived here. I was actually planning on renewing my lease because I'm PCS'ing to Europe in a few months too (and I sadly cannot carry over there at all!). Probably best not to try and incite a legal issue with them.

Seems reasonable enough. I still would vote for more discretion when carrying on the property to "avoid" the confrontation altogether if your lease is up for renewal shortly AND you want to use the Soldiers and Sailors Military Relief Act to break the new lease early when you PCS. Yes, they have to let you out of your lease. No, they don't have to make it easy or painless. You might be fighting to get back a security deposit, for example. They can "lose" your notice to vacate and orders. What if "damages" mysteriously appear that you get charged for? Yes, there are ways to get around this -- sending such via registered mail, asking for a written confirmation of receipt, taking lots of pictures, etc. I would just realize that it could be a pain in the ass.

40beretta said:
Also, sorry if some of you think the leg drop holster is excessive. I will admit, it definitely gives off the cop vibe or whatnot, however, I really like it. It's quick to put on and it's light. Also, it keeps my 40 right there at my hand in the event the unthinkable happens. I mean, that's actually why I wear it.

To each their own I suppose. I personally find them to be uncomfortable. A good OWB holster (Bladetech, for example) is going to be lighter than any thigh rig and the draw should be just about as fast.

I am surprised to hear that your draw stroke is faster out of a thigh drop. In theory, a belt holster should be more economical of motion from a typical hands-at-the-interview-position start. With the thigh drop your hand has to travel an extra foot or so down, then another foot or so back up. It may be that you are more comfortable with the draw stroke from the thigh drop due to using it at work/deployed, and thus are faster. You may find that with a little dry-fire practice on your draw stroke from a good belt holster (with good belt!) you achieve similar if not faster speeds. I know I'm a bit faster out of the OWB belt, but it is not a huge time difference either (maybe on the order of 0.2 second).

I do know that if I see someone with a thigh drop holster, I think one of the following:
- That person is wearing hard body armor and needs to keep their sidearm clear of the armor.
- That person is wearing LBE (chest rig) and needs to keep their sidearm clear of the gear.
there
- That person is coming home from work where they wear that gear.
- That person gets in and out of a lot of vehicles and really does not like shoulder holsters or cross-draw... Or they have a new york reload (or three) stashed away in those places too.
- That person is a Tacticool Mall Ninja and I'm wondering about their level of training.
- That person is trying to attract attention to themselves to make a point.

I've got a thigh drop myself (was issued one when I fell into the first two categories for work) but personally don't think it is the best choice for day-to-day open carry. I did wear it occasionally in cold climes when wearing lots of bulky winter clothing, because then it keeps your draw out of the way just like with LBE. Otherwise I don't think it really serves much of a purpose.

With OC, perception and context is reality. If the goal is to win hearts and minds and "normalize" OC, strolling around at night in bad neighborhoods -- even if we live there -- looking like we're ready to grab our hard plates and LBE to kick down a door Fallujah-style may not be the best approach. I am pro-OC and pro-RKBA but I'd go to condition orange if I saw a single, non-uniformed individual walking around my apartment complex at night with a thigh drop with no obvious reason to be using a thigh drop (no armor, LBE, bulky winter clothes, etc). It is out of context and doesn't have an easy explanation and thus is something that is going to draw my attention.

When I OC it isn't really to make a point. I don't want to draw undue attention to myself. I just want to go about my normal business with my family, carry in a comfortable manner, and be entirely low-key and normal about it. I'm not saying that your choice is a bad one; I'm just suggesting that it isn't unreasonable for other people -- especially non-OC'ers! -- to notice and have questions.

DocWalker · Jul 24, 2011

Congrats on going to Europe...

40beretta said:
Woah! Lots of feedback! Thank you all for taking interest and giving me advice and suggestions! Unfortunately, I spent too much time in the sun and had a big beer at lunch, so I took a nap after shooting, and I didn't actually make it to the apartment office. After reading all your responses, I think I'm just going to stick to the "don't ask, don't tell" idea and just not approach them (the apartment managers) directly about the subject and wait to see if they come to me. I will continue to OC on the property in the meantime though. The security guards told me that they are mostly worried about someone in the apartment complex calling them or the cops and reporting "some dude walking around with a gun" so they just want to make sure I'm not hassled later on. I guess that means I have to give up my rights to do so (not happening). My lease is actually up in 40 days, and aside from this issue, I've never had any problems in the 2 years I've lived here. I was actually planning on renewing my lease because I'm PCS'ing to Europe in a few months too (and I sadly cannot carry over there at all!). Probably best not to try and incite a legal issue with them.

Also, sorry if some of you think the leg drop holster is excessive. I will admit, it definitely gives off the cop vibe or whatnot, however, I really like it. It's quick to put on and it's light. Also, it keeps my 40 right there at my hand in the event the unthinkable happens. I mean, that's actually why I wear it.

Oh, and someone asked which BWW's I OC in - Durango/215N. Mostly late at night. All the bartenders and servers (and even the cooks) know me by first name.

Wow, you will like it over there; I was stationed in England (RAF Upper Heyfor from 1989-92 and In Germany at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center from 1997-2003) get out and travel while your there.

Vegassteve · Jul 24, 2011

40beretta said:
Weird.

Also, how do you have a corporate policy disregarding freedom? Wtf

In a post someplace on this forum or on Nevada Shooters forum there is a letter stating the policy because after being tossed out of a few we asked.

hermannr · Jul 25, 2011

40beretta:

When I was in service I knew an E7 that had purchased a home every time he moved to a new post, but never sold any of his houses. (BTW: In the 60's they moved us a lot more than the do now.) By the time I knew him he had 14 houses. He called them his "retirement fund". He figured his 14 houses would generate about 10X the income his military retirement did.

If you purchase a home (and now is a good time to do so in the LV area) you do not need to think of what the "landlord" wants, becasue you are the "landlord". When you get transfered you just rent the house out and let someone else pay for the place for you and you can take all of the tax deductions...

You just pay a property manager 6% to 10% of the rental income to take care of everything for you. A good Property manager will keep the property rented because if it is not rented, he receives no income.

You can use your GI bill to get the first one, and the equity and/or income from the first one to finance any subsequent purchases.

Apartment security says I can't OC on apartment property?

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