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Thread: Guns and... Alcohol?

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Guns and... Alcohol?

    It appears that as our movement gains momentum and support there are more serious inquiries into what behavior is acceptable while bearing arms. I'd like to start a little debate as to whether drinking and guns mix or not. I'll start by voicing my own opinion and experiences.

    Personally, I have never had any trouble with my own behavior and the behavior of some close friends when it comes to guns and alcohol. I have, however, had some poor experiences as well. My little brother, when asked to drop his noise level, threatened me, in a seemingly joking manner, by pulling his pistol from his drawer and loading a round into the chamber. I put a quick stop to this by making him believe how serious I was about sending him to jail if he ever did anything like that again. That was the last time anything of that sort happened between the two of us.

    My older brother is far more disciplined when it comes to firearms. I've seen him drink before but he always makes sure to limit his drinking while carrying. Of course he carries all the time so I never see him drink to excess.

    I, on the other hand, drink for fun on a fairly regular basis. I also carry at all times. The worst type of situation I've been in is when a friend asks me to see my pistol while we're drinking. My response to this is always no. I'm a firm believer that firearms will not harm anyone when left alone. When I'm sober I have no problem safely unloading a weapon so it can be handled without risk of discharge but I will not allow it to leave my holster in public or while intoxicated.

    I know the laws surrounding this behavior and that is why I can say, with confidence, that open carry and drinking is not illegal. I'm just not sure what is and should be acceptable behavior in public. I've open carried to bars, drank at home while carrying, gone to parties carrying, and the like. I'm just not sure why it is of great concern when people drink and carry.

  2. #2
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    it really depends on the respect and control level of the person who may be carrying and drinking honestly.

    i've seen a LEO friend of my 100% in the bag, with a S&W semi auto in a IWB that never even touched the firearm, then again i've seen a Navy seal who had 3 beers unholster and shoot a tv.

    i myself will drink while carrying. .....in my own home. but i limit myself to 2 beers. then cutt if off, or unload and store my weapon if i am going to have more.

    i NEVER drink outside while carrying, if im out to dinner and im goin to have a beer, i excuse myself, unload, and lock my weapon in a lockbox in the trunk, return to the restraunt and have a few beers.

    it really depends on the level of respect, and self control of the holder of the weapon, if your one to get roudy, lound, irrate or violent when you drink and cannot keep a level head. it is a horrible combination. but if you have drank before while armed. and never even thought of touching the weapon. then thats a personal choice.

    second thing you have to think about is discharging a weapon while intoxicated. this should NEVER be done. even if it is in self defense, its like drinking and driving. i've shot drunk. at a paper target. BAD IDEA i put 10 rnds of 9mm 15 yards downrage. i missed the paper every time. whereas usually i could double tap the SOB untill the cows came home. if your drunk. you wont hit your target. meaning in SD...........you will shoot bystanders or family and friends. if your drunk and a SD situation arrises. do yourself a favor and pass the weapon to someone who is level headed and SOBER.

    NTM any DA who handles a case of you shooting someone in self defense when intoxicated will nail you to a wall...........just sayin.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    While drinking and carrying a firearm safely may be done at the same time it is simply not a good idea. I was really surprised that the OP said he has carried while intoxicated (unless I read it wrong). It has been well proven that even small amounts of alcohol can impair judgement. If I plan on drinking I don't carry, correspondingly I don't drink that much. As previously mentioned, what if you legitimately shoot someone at the place you are drinking? You are inviting an additional investigation into how much you drank and whether you were impaired that may not go the way you want it to. I'd rather play it safe and make sure I am totally aware of what is going on while I am carrying.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 07-24-2011 at 03:09 PM.
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    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    For me, if i am home i will drink and carry. If i am out on the town i won't even entertain the thought of drinking. To me that is more ammo for LEO to use against you even tho it is legal.

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    By personal choice, I rarely drink. One beer, in my honest opinion, for a 6'1 200lbs guy isn't being intoxicated.

    However, drinking to excess can be bad if you have no self-control.

    What if you had to use your weapon in defense of yourself, BUT you were intoxicated? How would that look to a DA? Would that be a factor with the officers and potential prosecution?

    There's a lot of variables.

    My personal stance is I don't drink at all when Concealed, and maybe a beer if not.

    The issue is an Officer has *discretion* when deciding if you're "intoxicated" according to the statute regarding concealed carry and drinking. That is exactly how the Sheriff's Department worded it in the CWL class.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    If I go out to dinner, I will have a (as in "one") pint, but that is all. We have a favorite restaurant (Sully's) and they serve my favorite micro brew (Alpine) that cannot be purchased in bottles...and yes, I do have one when we go there, and my wife may too, or she may just share some of my pint, but one (possibly each) is it. I do not like the feel of any kind of impairment, ever. My 21st birthday in Siagon years ago cured that.

    Here in WA you can't carry into any place posted by the liquor control board as "only 21 or over" anyway so straight up bars are a no-no. Restaurants are ok, even if they serve.

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    One of my avocations is as a professional pyrotechnician. I think the rule among pyrotechnicians would apply just as well to firearms because it is well documented that even small amounts of alcohol can impair judgement. Admittedly, we stole the rule from professional truck drivers, "24 hours from bottle to throttle", but we extend the bottle to include allergy medication, pain medication, muscle relaxers, etc. Anything that can impair judgement or reflexes endangers you and those around you when you are armed.

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    The goal of normalizing carry is to, well, normalize it. Go about living your life with a gun, same as without one.

    Now, if anyone has a problem with drinking to the point of losing sound judgement, or having violent tendencies of any kind (related to alcohol or not), then that is what needs to change in their life, gun or not.

    I don't drink unless I'm at home, but that's not because I'm worried about myself or my reactions to alcohol. America has turned to strict enforcement of alcohol laws that aren't based on any actual impairment. The standards are low, convictions are easy, and there is a hue and cry for zero tolerance, so consuming any alcohol at all makes you an easy target for law enforcement. I desire as little police interaction in my life as possible, so I simply don't drink outside my home.

    When I do drink, I don't get snockered, so I really don't worry about whether a gun is on my person or in my safe. Practically speaking, both are equally accessible. I'm no more likely to start shooting, than to start driving drunk just because I have car keys in my pocket.

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    interesting topic

    In my own home, I have no problem having a few beers and carrying, because I know that I am a responsible, mature individual.

    However, I do have certain reservations about being seen "drinking for fun" while openly carrying a loaded firearm, all from a public relations standpoint. Let me preface this by saying that I firmly believe that the exercise of my rights is not contingent upon the comfort level of others. On the other hand, open carry is still not widely seen or understood by the general population, so I try to do what I can, within reason, to portray a sober, responsible image to the public.

    If I am sitting down at a restaurant, I may or may not have a (1) beer or glass of wine with my meal. Conversely, I wouldn't permit myself to be seen drinking multiple cups of beer at a music festival while carrying. If I am grocery shopping while carrying, I have no problem with putting a case of beer or a bottle of wine or whatever into my cart and checking out; when I get a hankering for a cold beer at the end of a long day of work, but don't want a whole case in my fridge, and stop at a convenience store to buy a single tall boy, I usually disarm simply because I don't want to feed into the ignorant idea that gun owners/carriers are rednecks who are probably going to pop it open on the road. Do I believe that I should have to disarm to make people more comfortable? Absolutely not. I choose to do it at certain times and places for the greater goal of promoting acceptance of open carry. Do I look down on those who knock back a few in public while packing? Not in the slightest; it is their right and it is no business of mine or anyone else to tell them how to exercise it.

  10. #10
    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpyne View Post
    One of my avocations is as a professional pyrotechnician. I think the rule among pyrotechnicians would apply just as well to firearms because it is well documented that even small amounts of alcohol can impair judgement. Admittedly, we stole the rule from professional truck drivers, "24 hours from bottle to throttle", but we extend the bottle to include allergy medication, pain medication, muscle relaxers, etc. Anything that can impair judgement or reflexes endangers you and those around you when you are armed.
    That seems a bit ridiculous to me, I take allegra for my allergies but I drive and carry... I don't see how medications or liquor impairs your natural right to defend yourself. I suppose your judgement may be impaired but it doesn't seem right to me that one should preclude themselves from being able to defend your life just because you've had a couple or you're taking medication. Seems to me that's when you're the most vulnerable in the eyes of a criminal...

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    In my own home, I have no problem having a few beers and carrying, because I know that I am a responsible, mature individual.

    However, I do have certain reservations about being seen "drinking for fun" while openly carrying a loaded firearm, all from a public relations standpoint. Let me preface this by saying that I firmly believe that the exercise of my rights is not contingent upon the comfort level of others. On the other hand, open carry is still not widely seen or understood by the general population, so I try to do what I can, within reason, to portray a sober, responsible image to the public.

    If I am sitting down at a restaurant, I may or may not have a (1) beer or glass of wine with my meal. Conversely, I wouldn't permit myself to be seen drinking multiple cups of beer at a music festival while carrying. If I am grocery shopping while carrying, I have no problem with putting a case of beer or a bottle of wine or whatever into my cart and checking out; when I get a hankering for a cold beer at the end of a long day of work, but don't want a whole case in my fridge, and stop at a convenience store to buy a single tall boy, I usually disarm simply because I don't want to feed into the ignorant idea that gun owners/carriers are rednecks who are probably going to pop it open on the road. Do I believe that I should have to disarm to make people more comfortable? Absolutely not. I choose to do it at certain times and places for the greater goal of promoting acceptance of open carry. Do I look down on those who knock back a few in public while packing? Not in the slightest; it is their right and it is no business of mine or anyone else to tell them how to exercise it.
    Don't you think that you could promote an image of responsibility simply by being in public, drinking while carrying, and doing nothing wrong? I haven't met someone who has looked at me while I do such things and said I was being irresponsible. On the contrary, anyone who has even interacted with me has only asked questions and never were they derogatory. I see this a lot, people assuming that others hold a certain opinion because it is widely publicized, rather than assuming everyone holds an opinion similar to their own, like people who carry guns everywhere are normal. I find the truth is actually that, more often than not.

    It seems to me that a lot of people who are trying to "normalize carry" are not normalizing it because they refuse to make it normal. For example, if you don't carry while engaging in specific behaviors simply because you think that would portray a certain image, isn't that just the same as not carrying simply because it ISN'T normal? I thought the idea was to make it normal by doing it everywhere no matter what you're doing! If you're afraid of what people will think then, personally, I think it's a bad idea for you to try changing people's opinions about a behavior at all!

    If you're going to engage in a behavior that is an extension of an idea, doesn't it behoove you to see that behavior through to the logical end of the idea?
    Last edited by clarkebar; 07-25-2011 at 08:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    Don't you think that you could promote an image of responsibility simply by being in public, drinking while carrying, and doing nothing wrong? I haven't met someone who has looked at me while I do such things and said I was being irresponsible. On the contrary, anyone who has even interacted with me has only asked questions and never were they derogatory. I see this a lot, people assuming that others hold a certain opinion because it is widely publicized, rather than assuming everyone holds an opinion similar to their own, like people who carry guns everywhere are normal. I find the truth is actually that, more often than not.

    It seems to me that a lot of people who are trying to "normalize carry" are not normalizing it because they refuse to make it normal. For example, if you don't carry while engaging in specific behaviors simply because you think that would portray a certain image, isn't that just the same as not carrying simply because it ISN'T normal? I thought the idea was to make it normal by doing it everywhere no matter what you're doing! If you're afraid of what people will think then, personally, I think it's a bad idea for you to try changing people's opinions about a behavior at all!
    I definitely understand what you are saying, but I guess I just look at it from the practical standpoint of Joe Blow on the street who maybe had some experience with guns growing up but is definitely not accustomed to open carry. Now, I think it is safe to assume that you and I are about the same age (mid-twenties), and we both like to drink. I weigh 200 pounds on a good day and stand about 6'1". Coming off the "college experience," I think we can both agree that having three or possibly even five beers, for someone of my size, age, and drinking history/experience/tolerance, doesn't represent any significant level of intoxication. HOWEVER, to middle-aged Joe Blow, or to a woman, that might seem like a lot. I've noticed that in recent years, as he's aging, my dad can really only have a few drinks before he starts showing visible signs of intoxication, and this is a man who used to be able to put em back like no one else.

    I suppose that my point is that there are no mind-readers out there; people are going to judge based off of their personal experiences and abilities. Since I don't need alcohol to enjoy myself at public functions while carrying, it is a relatively small thing for me to either forego the gun or the booze. Again, I think it is your God-given right to carry in any manner that you see fit as long as you are not endangering anybody. I simply make a choice, when I'm around the general public (gun people or people I have drank with before at a gathering would be a different story) to portray the most responsible image that I can, in the way that will be perceived as the most responsible by the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    If you're going to engage in a behavior that is an extension of an idea, doesn't it behoove you to see that behavior through to the logical end of the idea?
    Another good point and yes I do believe that in a perfect world, a person carrying a gun and drinking without becoming visibly intoxicated shouldn't raise anymore suspicion than someone doing the same armed only with a cell phone. However, we're not there yet, and I see drinking "for fun," in public, as you suggested, as retarding progress toward that goal more than accelerating it.

    EDIT: Not to mention that, if you had to use your weapon, having multiple witnesses testify that they saw you consuming multiple cups of beer immediately prior is a lot worse than if you had only one or none at all.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 07-25-2011 at 08:25 PM.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Another good point and yes I do believe that in a perfect world, a person carrying a gun and drinking without becoming visibly intoxicated shouldn't raise anymore suspicion than someone doing the same armed only with a cell phone. However, we're not there yet, and I see drinking "for fun," in public, as you suggested, as retarding progress toward that goal more than accelerating it.

    EDIT: Not to mention that, if you had to use your weapon, having multiple witnesses testify that they saw you consuming multiple cups of beer immediately prior is a lot worse than if you had only one or none at all.
    Have you asked yourself what you would think if a prosecuting attorney told you that a man who was drinking, while armed, shot another man in self defense? I asked myself that question, and my response was, "have we established that it was a self defense shooting? If the answer is yes, why are we concerned about whether he was drinking or not?"

    If you keep in mind that jurors are not mindless idiots who will vote in the direction of the media's portrayal of public opinion, but instead they are, in fact, people like you and me, you'll understand my point of view. I'm going to look around for a case to back me up but I'm sure there has been an instance where someone was drinking and shot another in self defense without going to prison. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that a self defense shooting is justified no matter what drugs or alcohol you're on. Even if the drugs are illegal, I doubt a jury will convict you of murder. They might convict you of abusing a controlled substance, but if you shot somebody and it was justified I don't see how a jury will, the majority of the time, convict you of something you are obviously innocent of.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I definitely understand what you are saying, but I guess I just look at it from the practical standpoint of Joe Blow on the street who maybe had some experience with guns growing up but is definitely not accustomed to open carry. Now, I think it is safe to assume that you and I are about the same age (mid-twenties), and we both like to drink. I weigh 200 pounds on a good day and stand about 6'1". Coming off the "college experience," I think we can both agree that having three or possibly even five beers, for someone of my size, age, and drinking history/experience/tolerance, doesn't represent any significant level of intoxication. HOWEVER, to middle-aged Joe Blow, or to a woman, that might seem like a lot. I've noticed that in recent years, as he's aging, my dad can really only have a few drinks before he starts showing visible signs of intoxication, and this is a man who used to be able to put em back like no one else.

    I suppose that my point is that there are no mind-readers out there; people are going to judge based off of their personal experiences and abilities. Since I don't need alcohol to enjoy myself at public functions while carrying, it is a relatively small thing for me to either forego the gun or the booze. Again, I think it is your God-given right to carry in any manner that you see fit as long as you are not endangering anybody. I simply make a choice, when I'm around the general public (gun people or people I have drank with before at a gathering would be a different story) to portray the most responsible image that I can, in the way that will be perceived as the most responsible by the general public.
    This is exactly my point, you are judging your behavior based on a view from someone you assume is in existence. Ask your neighbors before jumping to conclusions. I wouldn't think you're irresponsible if you drink while carrying. Besides, what makes you think that someone who might think that matters anyway? Or if that kind of person is in the majority?

    I think you're making generalizations based on an idea that is contrary to the one which drove people to open carry in the first place. This idea is that open carry is normal, not that it should be, but that it is. It was normal long before gun control was in this country. Sure, if you compare America to any other country, you'll find that I'm wrong. However, based on our history, I have concluded, and I am not alone, that the open bearing of arms has been the norm, here, since the country came into existence. It was not until recently that racially based gun control came into existence and began masquerading as normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    If you keep in mind that jurors are not mindless idiots who will vote in the direction of the media's portrayal of public opinion, but instead they are, in fact, people like you and me, you'll understand my point of view.
    Hmmm...the jury system is one of the few government institutions I still have any degree of respect for, but I disagree that juries are made up of "people like you and me." People who understand that the only legitimate function of a government is the protection of individual rights are the exception, rather than the rule, even in Idaho (although I have far more faith in a jury here than other places I have lived). You do realize that less than half of the citizens in this country actually pay taxes, correct? "People like you and me?" I think not.

    In any event, I agree with you that whether or not someone had been drinking prior to a self-defense shooting (as long as he wasn't seen drunk) is probably a minor issue. It is merely a sidebar to my main concern which is that being seen carrying a gun while drinking amounts of alcohol that a good many people would consider intoxicating does not promote acceptance of open carry by the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    However, based on our history, I have concluded, and I am not alone, that the open bearing of arms has been the norm, here, since the country came into existence. It was not until recently that racially based gun control came into existence and began masquerading as normal.
    I can't disagree with this (although it is a misconception that all gun control has a racist origin - although its origin is no less despicable). Like negative attitudes towards guns, the current demonization of alcohol by the MADD/statist crowd is a relatively recent phenomena...and one that must be overcome, one way or the other...
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 07-25-2011 at 09:04 PM.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Hmmm...the jury system is one of the few government institutions I still have any degree of respect for, but I disagree that juries are made up of "people like you and me." People who understand that the only legitimate function of a government is the protection of individual rights are the exception, rather than the rule, even in Idaho (although I have far more faith in a jury here than other places I have lived). You do realize that less than half of the citizens in this country actually pay taxes, correct? "People like you and me?" I think not.

    In any event, I agree with you that whether or not someone had been drinking prior to a self-defense shooting (as long as he wasn't seen drunk) is probably a minor issue. It is merely a sidebar to my main concern which is that being seen carrying a gun while drinking amounts of alcohol that a good many people would consider intoxicating does not promote acceptance of open carry by the general public.
    Okay, the jury thing aside, you still think that drinking (and I'm not specifically referring to being "drunk") and carrying will promote a bad image? I challenge you to do so and then ask a few random strangers what they think.

    On a related note, I noticed you reside in SW Idaho, if you're anywhere near Boise, would you like to engage in this exercise with me? I would like to see if public opinion here is anywhere near what I hope it is.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I can't disagree with this (although it is a misconception that all gun control has a racist origin - although its origin is no less despicable). Like negative attitudes towards guns, the current demonization of alcohol by the MADD/statist crowd is a relatively recent phenomena...and one that must be overcome, one way or the other...
    HA, GOTCHA! Just kidding

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    Okay, the jury thing aside, you still think that drinking (and I'm not specifically referring to being "drunk") and carrying will promote a bad image? I challenge you to do so and then ask a few random strangers what they think.

    On a related note, I noticed you reside in SW Idaho, if you're anywhere near Boise, would you like to engage in this exercise with me? I would like to see if public opinion here is anywhere near what I hope it is.
    It's not that I think that drinking while carrying necessarily promotes a bad image; as I said, in the past, I have drank super-moderately with a meal in public, but I guess I just think that people are going to judge off of what would intoxicate them, which is, almost always, less than what would intoxicate me.

    On the other hand, I'm always up for an experiment, especially if it has the potential to expand the free exercise of rights. I live in SE Boise. What kind of establishment/venue would you suggest for such an experiment? The setting would probably have a lot to do with my comfort level.

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    Regular Member clarkebar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    It's not that I think that drinking while carrying necessarily promotes a bad image; as I said, in the past, I have drank super-moderately with a meal in public, but I guess I just think that people are going to judge off of what would intoxicate them, which is, almost always, less than what would intoxicate me.

    On the other hand, I'm always up for an experiment, especially if it has the potential to expand the free exercise of rights. I live in SE Boise. What kind of establishment/venue would you suggest for such an experiment? The setting would probably have a lot to do with my comfort level.
    A sports bar would be the best environment, I think. There's food, people, and beer for the drinking. I think the mere presence of food is enough to quell the concerns of many people. I've had different experiences at different places. I went to two different Buffalo Wild Wings restaurants at two different times. One served me at the bar without so much as a word, the other asked me not to carry while drinking there. I know which one I will return to in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkebar View Post
    A sports bar would be the best environment, I think. There's food, people, and beer for the drinking. I think the mere presence of food is enough to quell the concerns of many people. I've had different experiences at different places. I went to two different Buffalo Wild Wings restaurants at two different times. One served me at the bar without so much as a word, the other asked me not to carry while drinking there. I know which one I will return to in the future.
    Fair enough. I'm game. Send me a PM and let's make this happen.

    EDIT: Regarding the time you were asked not to drink while carrying at BWW, did you ever contact their corporate and find out what the policy is, just out of curiosity?
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 07-26-2011 at 02:11 PM.

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    I think moderation is important. Becoming the test case for defining a new standard isn't on my agenda though.

    I'm willing to join you on a trip to someplace like Cheerleaders. I'm good for one an hour or being the designated driver, either way.

    Let me know in advance.

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    As I see it, this question revolves around three separate issues.

    Legality: As I understand the law in Idaho, you could pass out drunk with a handgun visibly holstered on your hip without violating the law. That said, I would not put it past a DA to file a bogus charge such as reckless endangerment and try for a conviction. He might very well get it too, considering the deep-seated prejudices which many hold against both gun owners and drinkers.

    Public Relations: Being seen at a restaurant having a dinner which includes a drink or two is probably an overall positive in this category. Being seen at a bar (even a sports bar) is probably an overall negative. (That does not mean one should not do it, I just do not see it as a positive action from a public relations standpoint.)

    Logic: Carrying a gun (even when drinking) does not alter the nature of man. If one has violent tendencies, alcohol may exacerbate those tendencies, but for the vast majority of people, if you would not commit a homicide while sober, you will not commit one when drinking. We must not fall into the trap of equating carrying a firearm to being more dangerous. Firearms are not dangerous - people are dangerous. If you are unfamiliar with how you react when drinking, you should not carry. If you tend to get violent when drinking, you should not carry. If you can not remember what happens when you drink, you definitely should not carry. However, if you are able to drink alcohol and continue to behave in a normal fashion (albeit perhaps in a bit better mood) there is no logical reason why having a holstered weapon on your hip would increase the danger of the experience.

    The one situation where drinking while carrying could be a huge detriment to you is if you draw your weapon. It does not matter how justified you are in drawing and/or using your weapon - your accuracy will suffer, your judgement will not be as sharp, and your reaction time will be slower. In addition to these physical limitations, the resulting encounter with law enforcement is likely to be even more negative than it would be if you were completely sober.

    Overall, I believe that there is no increased danger in carrying while drinking for those who have an accurate understanding of their inclinations and limitations - provided they do not draw their weapon. That said, I carry exclusively for self defense, and I would not fully trust myself to make the necessary critical decisions in a self-defense scenario if I had been drinking, so I would not personally carry a weapon while drinking. I certainly understand why some would choose to do so, and I do not condemn their decision. Each individual must make their own decision and be prepared to live with the repercussions that their decision may bring.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    caldwell, Idaho, USA
    Posts
    451

    Red face

    the only question i pose??? with ammo prices skyrocketing and gas almost 4.00 a gallon, how could any gun owner afford to drink ...lol...

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