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Thread: Years ago... Carry on airplanes......

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Years ago... Carry on airplanes......

    This was many years ago, when airlines were kinda just getting started I believe..

    It was also a time when it was difficult to be carrying a sidearm at all.. However, there were the "lucky few" who had permits, or LEO's, etc..

    I cannot find the information now, however I could have sworn I read where it was not all that uncommon to have someone on an airplane with a sidearm.. As it was not disallowed, and it was the "safest way to transport from point A to point B".

    Anyone help me find this, or am I just dreaming that I read this somewhere...

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    I don't know what the law was, but you have to imagine that until the statist mentality became firmly entrenched in this country and you had to go through security to get onto an airplane, "don't ask, don't tell" was the order of the day. This is still the case with private aviation, although who knows for how much longer.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I've sat beside folks who were carrying, and did not seem to feel any great need to cover up/conceal that fact. They also smoked cigars and drank beer while waiting to see how long the plane would stay in the air. None of those fokks had any connection to law enforcement as a source of employment. Some of them were quite familiar with folks who were so employed.

    I've carried a few times myself. We will not discuss the year or the circumstances. Then there were the times I was bringing young Marines back to face some very dismal music and not only did I carry but I reminded them that if we encountered turbulance while they were in the washroom there was a chance they would find out if it were possible to be flushed at altitude.

    Back in those dark ages there were rental storage lockers, and you carried your own bags at least to the door leading out onto the tarmac, if not right up to the ramp stairs where the nice baggage handlers took over throwing your belongings up into the cargo bay.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I've carried a few times myself. We will not discuss the year or the circumstances.
    Skid,

    We already know you were friends with the Wright brothers, how bad could it be?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Skid,

    We already know you were friends with the Wright brothers, how bad could it be?
    Heck, he babysat them.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Skid,

    We already know you were friends with the Wright brothers, how bad could it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Heck, he babysat them.
    It is not true that I am older than dirt.

    However, I did serve on the feasability committee for dirt. And for the record, I voted against it.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    When I was younger everyone went into the terminal to see your friends and family off. If you had a young one, the parents would take the child onto the plane and make sure they were safely secured in their seats...and occationally did not get off of the plane on time.

    If you ever flew in an ould style outfitted prop DC6B (50's, before the 707 came out) you would know what flying was like. It was Luxury, and expensive, about the equivalent of first clss now. handguns? not a problem.

    I think the handgun problem in airplanes came in with flying at the FL 30 to FL 40+ altitudes.. Some people mistakenly thought that the aircraft would depressurize violently if it got the slightest little hole in it. (Or at least that is what the anti's used to keep weapons off of the 727 (the first jet specifically designed to operate at FL 40 to FL 50+)

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    When I was younger everyone went into the terminal to see your friends and family off. If you had a young one, the parents would take the child onto the plane and make sure they were safely secured in their seats...and occationally did not get off of the plane on time.

    If you ever flew in an ould style outfitted prop DC6B (50's, before the 707 came out) you would know what flying was like. It was Luxury, and expensive, about the equivalent of first clss now. handguns? not a problem.

    I think the handgun problem in airplanes came in with flying at the FL 30 to FL 40+ altitudes.. Some people mistakenly thought that the aircraft would depressurize violently if it got the slightest little hole in it. (Or at least that is what the anti's used to keep weapons off of the 727 (the first jet specifically designed to operate at FL 40 to FL 50+)
    I wasn't aware the 727 was cleared to operate at over FL 431 due to onboard O2 considerations. Not that it can't go over 50K, just wasn't allowed with passengers. I didn't like flying at over Angels 50 in a Phantom; doubt I would feel comfortable in an airliner.
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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    IIRC, guns on airplanes were banned during the 1970s when the hijackings started ... the government took away guns in cabins (guns in carryon luggage was still ok) and put Air Marshalls on and they were the only guns in the cabin except for the hijackers.
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by okboomer View Post
    IIRC, guns on airplanes were banned during the 1970s when the hijackings started ... the government took away guns in cabins (guns in carryon luggage was still ok) and put Air Marshalls on and they were the only guns in the cabin except for the hijackers.
    Isn't carry-on baggage "in the cabin?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I don't know what the law was, but you have to imagine that until the statist mentality became firmly entrenched in this country and you had to go through security to get onto an airplane, "don't ask, don't tell" was the order of the day. This is still the case with private aviation, although who knows for how much longer.
    Nope. It's against FAA rules for anyone aboard any flight, private, corporate, or commercial, to carry a firearm unless they're unloaded and secured in baggage not accessible to the passengers, and the ammunition is stored in factory case. I'd cite the chapter and verse, but my FAR/AIM is still packed from the move.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nope. It's against FAA rules for anyone aboard any flight, private, corporate, or commercial, to carry a firearm unless they're unloaded and secured in baggage not accessible to the passengers, and the ammunition is stored in factory case. I'd cite the chapter and verse, but my FAR/AIM is still packed from the move.
    When there is no security screening, it is most definitely "don't ask, don't tell." The government can make whatever silly, unconstitutional and immoral enactments it wishes, but if it has no means of detecting a violation or enforcing the rule, people can and do act as they see fit. If a citizen decides that it is worth the [minute] risk to him to carry on private aviation, so be it. He hasn't committed any real crime as far as I'm concerned, because a crime is an act that unjustly damages life, liberty or property. Armed self-defense, in the skies or on the ground, can never be a crime.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 07-28-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nope. It's against FAA rules for anyone aboard any flight, private, corporate, or commercial, to carry a firearm unless they're unloaded and secured in baggage not accessible to the passengers, and the ammunition is stored in factory case. I'd cite the chapter and verse, but my FAR/AIM is still packed from the move.
    Does this include pilots of private aircraft or strictly passengers? I know there sre some private pilots who carry on their own planes? Just curious. I'd be interested in the cite when you get settled in.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Isn't carry-on baggage "in the cabin?"
    Yes, and that was a perfectly acceptable way to transport weapons until the hijackings of the 1970s ... grandfather used to fly all over the world to hunt and I have his poly gun cases that he would transport the long guns in ... they didn't fit in the overhead bins, but the planes had a storage area that they would put the gun cases in that was in the cabin, his pistols were in his carryon bag that went in the overhead bin.

    Now, dad was extremely upset that the Air Marshall didn't shoot the hijacker of the plane he and mom were on that wound up sitting on the tarmac at the Dallas Airport (before DFW) for over 12 hours. By the third hour it was clear to the passengers that the hijacker was not going to let anyone go, and was threatening to shoot the pilots/passengers, and some of the passengers were demanding that the Air Marshall "shoot the idiot" and end the hijacking. They reasoned that there were 12 (actually more) citizens that agreed that the AM was justified in shooting, so do it already.

    This happened in 1974 and was the 5th time (I was 13 at the time) that my parents were in situations in which someone threatened to shoot them or blow them up. And they were a highschool teacher (4 bomb threats to the school, 3 bombs found) and a mechanic. They were flying standby back from snowskiing this time. Dad always said if he had his pistol he would have shot the hijacker and saved everyone a lot of grief and anguish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by okboomer View Post
    Yes, and that was a perfectly acceptable way to transport weapons until the hijackings of the 1970s ...
    I was confused because you said

    the government took away guns in cabins (guns in carryon luggage was still ok)
    If a gun is in carryon baggage, it is in the cabin.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    I was confused because you said



    If a gun is in carryon baggage, it is in the cabin.
    Before gun regulation, a passenger could carry a pistol on their person on the plane. Then guns were relegated to carry on luggage, then relegated to checked baggage only. It was a slow process that was done under the auspices of providing safety to passengers. With no evidence that regular passengers were in/of any danger to the other passengers just because they had a gun. We all saw what a box cutter can do when no one has any weapon at all!

    Remember, I was born in 1960, so what I have seen may not be common knowledge with younger folks today ... a lot of it is not taught in schools anymore as they are GFZs and even the *gasp* mention of a gun on school grounds is grounds for disciplenary action today!

    "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" was a very popular bumpersticker in 1968-1974.
    cheers - okboomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by okboomer View Post
    Before gun regulation, a passenger could carry a pistol on their person on the plane. Then guns were relegated to carry on luggage, then relegated to checked baggage only.
    Not that I think any gun laws are wise or justifiable, but forbidding passengers to have guns physically on their body, but allowing the same in a readily-accessible bag, is just asinine.

    In most states, having a loaded weapon in a bag that you are carrying is considered "on your person" for the purposes of concealed-carry laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nope. It's against FAA rules for anyone aboard any flight, private, corporate, or commercial, to carry a firearm unless they're unloaded and secured in baggage not accessible to the passengers, and the ammunition is stored in factory case. I'd cite the chapter and verse, but my FAR/AIM is still packed from the move.
    Cite? Folks here who own or use private planes regularly report carrying on them.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    I wasn't aware the 727 was cleared to operate at over FL 431 due to onboard O2 considerations. Not that it can't go over 50K, just wasn't allowed with passengers. I didn't like flying at over Angels 50 in a Phantom; doubt I would feel comfortable in an airliner.

    When the 727 first came out, (1963) it was designed to fly at FL50 with a cabin pressure of 8000'. That was one of it's original selling points, less crowded air space, better operational economy, and faster transit times...Problem was, an average of 25% of the people that flew at the FL40+ were getting ill.

    The problem was they had too many people coming down with altitude sickness, and had to bring the cabin pressure down to 6000' to drop the insidence of altitude sickness.

    I found this out years ago when our youngest daughter (who is now almost 40) had a problem with altitude sickness on a trip to Europe. We could not get anyone to tell us what her problem was until one of the members of our church who was a retired Boeing senior Engineer said, oh, yes, "I know what was wrong with Erika"...he was on the team that figured out why there were so many people were getting sick on the "new" 727 back in 1963 and 64. When he retired he was the head of teh accident investigation team for Boeing.

    Anyway, this is why there are the altitude restrictions we have now on commercial passenger aircraft.
    Last edited by hermannr; 07-29-2011 at 01:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Does this include pilots of private aircraft or strictly passengers? I know there sre some private pilots who carry on their own planes? Just curious. I'd be interested in the cite when you get settled in.
    It's complicated. In the meantime, the link to the left will take you through the basics. In short, a lot depends on the type of airport into or out of which you're flying, as well as the rules as defined by the FBO, the airport, the city, the county, the state, and the fed. The primary concern is avoiding the "sterile" areas of the airport while carrying. Another concern is what one does when weather or mechanical difficulty forces one to land in a state where such action is illegal.

    I'll revisit the issue when I get to my books.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Nope. It's against FAA rules for anyone aboard any flight, private, corporate, or commercial, to carry a firearm unless they're unloaded and secured in baggage not accessible to the passengers, and the ammunition is stored in factory case. I'd cite the chapter and verse, but my FAR/AIM is still packed from the move.

    You will have to come up with a reference to back that statement up. My FAR/AIM reference book is old (like me), I know that, but my book does not have any reference to what you say. Also,,,,


    I know for a fact, if you go to Alaska, and take a charter a flight to go hunting, and you wish to carry a pistol, (OC or CC) you do not have to pack that pistol up with your rifles. I also know If I want to carry on my own aircraft, there is no-one that will stop me, or even come close to trying to check. My aircraft is my private vehicle, just like an automobile is, unless I am going to Canada, there will be a pistol in it, and not boxed up either.

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Not that I think any gun laws are wise or justifiable, but forbidding passengers to have guns physically on their body, but allowing the same in a readily-accessible bag, is just asinine.

    In most states, having a loaded weapon in a bag that you are carrying is considered "on your person" for the purposes of concealed-carry laws.
    It was a different time back then. Some of the younger folks don't realize just HOW MUCH this country has gone downhill in the past 30 years!
    Last edited by okboomer; 07-29-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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    Back in the late 60s when I was in the navy, a shipmate of mine purchased a commemorative 30-30 if the Navy exchange. He carried it home with him as carry on luggage on a regularly scheduled airline flight. When he boarded, he asked the stewardess if she wanted to have it locked into the cockpit or anything. Now, this is hearsay, because I wasn't there, but he told me that she asked if he couldn't just put it under his seat or something. The rifle finally wound up being put in the little area where they hung passenger's coats, fully accessible to anyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    In short, a lot depends on the type of airport into or out of which you're flying, as well as the rules as defined by the FBO, the airport, the city, the county, the state, and the fed. The primary concern is avoiding the "sterile" areas of the airport while carrying.
    Most general aviation never encounters any such thing as a "sterile area", even if they're flying out of an airport with security (most have none).

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