Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 88

Thread: Upon demand by a Law Enforcement Officer

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567

    Question Upon demand by a Law Enforcement Officer

    Code:
    The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
    I'm curious, what do you guys think?

    Like many of us do, if you're printing, holster is hanging below shirt, or you briefly display; can a police officer demand that you display your CWL and ID even though no crime has been committed? Usually we would say no, but this straight up says "UPON DEMAND BY A LEO."

    How do you guys feel about this?

    Wind blows your button up shirt open in front of a cop.
    You're holster is hanging below your shirt line in front of a cop.
    You're printing a huge bulge in your shirt in front of a cop.

    He comes up and asks "are you carrying a firearm?"
    Do you answer yes? Or you do you hit him with the am I being detained or am I free to go?

  2. #2
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Code:
    The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
    I'm curious, what do you guys think?

    Like many of us do, if you're printing, holster is hanging below shirt, or you briefly display; can a police officer demand that you display your CWL and ID even though no crime has been committed? Usually we would say no, but this straight up says "UPON DEMAND BY A LEO."

    How do you guys feel about this?

    Wind blows your button up shirt open in front of a cop.
    You're holster is hanging below your shirt line in front of a cop.
    You're printing a huge bulge in your shirt in front of a cop.

    He comes up and asks "are you carrying a firearm?"
    Do you answer yes? Or you do you hit him with the am I being detained or am I free to go?

    i have 2 answers for you:

    first- if he SEES the gun, and you know he does, and demands ID, i would show it to him.


    second- if he SUSPECTS you are carrying, and asks you, i would hit him with the "am i being detained or am i free to go?"

    IANAL but i did stay at a holiday inn express...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    something else to add here:

    isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

    so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?

  4. #4
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    something else to add here:

    isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

    so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?
    Carrying a firearm is, contra the state constitution, a crime in Florida, no matter the "manner" of carrying it. The state's permission slip creates an exception and gives you "privilege to carry" concealed, not "right to carry" like the NRA coins it.

    I don't talk to antagonistic armed strangers. I don't know him and I just want to go home at the end of his shift. If he knew I was carrying I'd hand over the permission slip.
    Last edited by 77zach; 07-26-2011 at 08:56 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  5. #5
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    something else to add here:

    isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

    so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?

    i thought there was case law saying that just because you think someone is carrying, it doesn't mean they are suspected of committing a crime?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    i thought there was case law saying that just because you think someone is carrying, it doesn't mean they are suspected of committing a crime?
    anyone got sauce on this?

  7. #7
    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
    Posts
    466
    I think we're making this way more difficult than it needs to be.

    You're in KFC. It's 10pm and close to closing time. You've reached for that last big chicken breast and your Colt Commander just peeked out "a bit" for maybe a second or two. No problem, except the two Sheriff's deputies on the late lunch break saw it and as you're wearing your pants down below your hips, got enough "art" to keep a circus in business and your 1947 Harley Davidson parked in the handicap zone is leaking oil all over the parking lot.

    Now, I'm thinking that perhaps one of those officers MAY decide that you're enough "out of the ordinary" to maybe, just maybe, check to see if that Colt Commander is legal to be where it is (as in concealed). This would be where the suspected "crime" comes in as it is obviously illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a license, right?

    So as to avoid any scene in the KFC, the officers duly wait until you're outside and as you're about to mount up, one of them asks, in a very nice way, if you've got a license for that excellent piece you've got slid down your belt.

    At this point, you answer "why yes I do". They will then ask you to produce the license (as allowed by statute) and you do.

    Your paperwork is in order, your license is correct and you're on your way.

    No, you can NOT ask "Am I under arrest" as you haven't actually done anything yet, as far as they know. What they do know is that you have a gun and they would like to know if you're an upstanding citizen of the community. He just told you why he's asking you for identification, it's your "excellent piece" down your belt!

    Your concealed weapons license says you MUST show identification on demand. It's one of the requirements of HAVING a CWL.

    Or did I miss the original question completely??

    AD (I don't even know where the nearest Holiday Inn actually is, so don't take anything I say as gospel!)
    NRA Life - AMA Life - ABATE Life
    Viet-Nam Helicopters Pilots Assn - Life
    IDPA, ICORE and USPSA carry gun shooter - Glock Armorer
    NRA Certified Instructor

  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    in front of my computer, WI
    Posts
    4,426

    Thumbs down

    That stinks, but since carrying is a crime in FL I can understand their reasoning.

    One iteration of our new cc bill had something similar, pretty much allowing any LEO at any time for any reason or no reason at all to walk up to someone & demand a permit, even if the person wasn't cc'ing.

    I pointed out at an NRA-sponsored town hall event & again at a hearing in in front of half a dozen legislators that it was blatantly unconsitutional & should be changed...
    and whaddayaknow - it was changed!

    Now it says something to the effect of "if you're carrying concealed (or openly in a place you're not allowed to carry w/o a permit) & the officer is acting lawfully you have to show your permission slip & ID."
    (Yeah, they couldn't manage to put a picture on our permits).
    I'm sure there will be some LEO who try to 'card' OCers, but that won't last long.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    anyone got sauce on this?
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=4,10&as_vis=1

    "In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

    How's that?
    Last edited by Rich7553; 07-26-2011 at 08:48 PM.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=4,10&as_vis=1

    "In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

    How's that?
    You are the sauce boss. TONS and TONS of good information in here. Got any more sauce laying around? I'm eating this up.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  11. #11
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    You are the sauce boss. TONS and TONS of good information in here. Got any more sauce laying around? I'm eating this up.
    Well, you could also Google Florida v. J.L.. That one went to the US Supreme Court, but the circumstances were a bit different, and the court's conclusion was not relevant to this thread.

    Here's a good question for all: Do you have a RIGHT to carry a firearm in Florida?

    ...

    Answer: NO! You have a privilege granted by the State.

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=4,10&as_vis=1

    "We find that retroactive application of section 790.06(2)(k), Florida Statutes, is not unconstitutional because a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm is a privilege and not a vested right."

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=1987&as_vis=1

    "We hold that retroactive application of section 493.6118(4) is not unconstitutional because a private investigator's license is not a property right, and the legislative determination, that a great public interest is served by denying the license to a convicted felon, is not arbitrary."
    Last edited by Rich7553; 07-26-2011 at 09:30 PM.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  12. #12
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Georgia, USA
    Posts
    3,915
    Not at all a post in opposition to what you've said, Rich but more of a 'food for thought' exercise - -

    Does one have a right to drive a car upon public highways in Florida without a license?
    Why cannot an officer pull over anyone he sees driving to make sure they are properly licensed and he can stop anyone he sees carrying a firearm to make sure they are properly licensed?

    Why has a legal precedent been set for one licensed activity but not for the other?
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-26-2011 at 10:22 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Not at all a post in opposition to what you've said, Rich but more of a 'food for thought' exercise - -

    Does one have a right to drive a car upon public highways in Florida without a license?
    Why cannot an officer pull over anyone he sees driving to make sure they are properly licensed and he can stop anyone he sees carrying a firearm to make sure they are properly licensed?

    Why has a legal precedent been set for one licensed activity but not for the other?
    Good question. One would think that since driving a car in the state is indeed a privilege, not a constitutionally protected right, that the officer should be able to pull over the car and not stop and ID a carrier. The only answer I can give is that the public would not stand for arbitrary stops of automobiles. In Wisconsin, for example, the recent case in Madison showed that police can request ID if they see you open carry, but cannot demand ID. In Florida, since when one is authorized to carry openly is in 790.25 not 790.06, one is not required to have a CWFL to carry openly while fishing for example. As far as ID goes, I don't know as I haven't researched it. But police have been known to overextend their authority when it comes to Terry stops.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  14. #14
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=4,10&as_vis=1

    "In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

    How's that?
    thanks bud
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  15. #15
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Well, you could also Google Florida v. J.L.. That one went to the US Supreme Court, but the circumstances were a bit different, and the court's conclusion was not relevant to this thread.

    Here's a good question for all: Do you have a RIGHT to carry a firearm in Florida?

    ...

    Answer: NO! You have a privilege granted by the State.

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=4,10&as_vis=1

    "We find that retroactive application of section 790.06(2)(k), Florida Statutes, is not unconstitutional because a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm is a privilege and not a vested right."

    http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...=1987&as_vis=1

    "We hold that retroactive application of section 493.6118(4) is not unconstitutional because a private investigator's license is not a property right, and the legislative determination, that a great public interest is served by denying the license to a convicted felon, is not arbitrary."



    does that mean if we can get them to change the wording of this statute to mean a right and not a privilege, then we wouldn't have to worry about getting rid of briefly, or getting unlicensed open carry?




    what about a case against the state saying that the whole CWL violates the florida constitution because it turns a right

    (The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law)

    into something that can only be obtained by a privilege?

    or does that not make sense?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  16. #16
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Good question. One would think that since driving a car in the state is indeed a privilege, not a constitutionally protected right, that the officer should be able to pull over the car and not stop and ID a carrier. The only answer I can give is that the public would not stand for arbitrary stops of automobiles. In Wisconsin, for example, the recent case in Madison showed that police can request ID if they see you open carry, but cannot demand ID. In Florida, since when one is authorized to carry openly is in 790.25 not 790.06, one is not required to have a CWFL to carry openly while fishing for example. As far as ID goes, I don't know as I haven't researched it. But police have been known to overextend their authority when it comes to Terry stops.
    so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?
    That is kind of a known thing. A CWL is NOT required to fish and OC.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  18. #18
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    does that mean if we can get them to change the wording of this statute to mean a right and not a privilege, then we wouldn't have to worry about getting rid of briefly, or getting unlicensed open carry?




    what about a case against the state saying that the whole CWL violates the florida constitution because it turns a right

    (The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law)

    into something that can only be obtained by a privilege?

    or does that not make sense?
    Well, current statute does indeed regulate the manner of bearing arms. I don't think we're going to be successful there. However, Florida Carry is very carefully watching several federal court cases that may directly impact this issue.
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  19. #19
    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
    Posts
    466
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?
    That is correct. The statute is clear on this.

    However, should you decide to put your open carried gun in your pocket for some reason, then you WILL need the license!

    Strange but true.

    AD (you still need a fishing license though)
    NRA Life - AMA Life - ABATE Life
    Viet-Nam Helicopters Pilots Assn - Life
    IDPA, ICORE and USPSA carry gun shooter - Glock Armorer
    NRA Certified Instructor

  20. #20
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    That is kind of a known thing. A CWL is NOT required to fish and OC.
    thanks- never knew that.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  21. #21
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169
    Quote Originally Posted by ADulay View Post
    That is correct. The statute is clear on this.

    However, should you decide to put your open carried gun in your pocket for some reason, then you WILL need the license!

    Strange but true.

    AD (you still need a fishing license though)


    so in essence- we DO have unlicensed open carry in the state of florida...lol


    i could just say "i'm hunting Al Qaeda"
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWFL
    Posts
    516
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    so in essence- we DO have unlicensed open carry in the state of florida...lol


    i could just say "i'm hunting Al Qaeda"
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	elmer_fudd.jpg 
Views:	77 
Size:	23.6 KB 
ID:	6478
    Rich
    MSgt, USAF Ret.
    Executive Director
    Florida Carry, Inc.
    www.floridacarry.org
    Glock 23 RTF2
    Mosin Nagant M91/30 (1942 Izhevsk)
    _____________________________________
    Want to do something about your gun rights?
    PITCH IN, QUIT B*TCHING!

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Quarryville, PA
    Posts
    3,543
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	elmer_fudd.jpg 
Views:	77 
Size:	23.6 KB 
ID:	6478
    Then you'll need your federal huning permit...

    Attachment 6479
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Not at all a post in opposition to what you've said, Rich but more of a 'food for thought' exercise - -

    Does one have a right to drive a car upon public highways in Florida without a license?
    Why cannot an officer pull over anyone he sees driving to make sure they are properly licensed and he can stop anyone he sees carrying a firearm to make sure they are properly licensed?

    Why has a legal precedent been set for one licensed activity but not for the other?
    Am I missing something? I've been through DUI checkpoints and other checkpoints where they DO check DL's, insurance, and registration. There is no probable cause - they are stopping any and all that happen to be along that particular road.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Somewhere over the Rainbow
    Posts
    974
    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworx View Post
    Am I missing something? I've been through DUI checkpoints and other checkpoints where they DO check DL's, insurance, and registration. There is no probable cause - they are stopping any and all that happen to be along that particular road.
    Yes, and you voluntarily complied didn't you? So they do it again, and again and again. Till people put a stop to it. Till people take a stand for real freedom. Not having to prove your innocent before you have been accused of something.

    It's been clearly established in the courts:
    "For a crime to exist, there must be an injured party. There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of Constitutional rights."- Sherar v. Cullen, 481 F. 945.

    A long established requirement of the courts:
    Allen v. Wright, 468 U.S. 737 (1984)
    "In essence the question of Standing is whether the litigant is entitled to have the court decide the merits of the dispute or of particular issues. Standing doctrine embraces... the general prohibition on a litigant's raising another person's legal rights, the rule barring adjudication of generalized grievances more appropriately addressed in the representative branches, and the requirement that a plaintiff's complaint fall within the zone of interests protected by the law invoked. The requirement of standing, however, has a core component derived directly from the Constitution. A plaintiff must allege personal injury fairly traceable to defendant’s allegedly unlawful conduct and likely to be redressed by the requested relief."

    So if your driving or get harassed because your firearm becomes visible and go to court for the "violation" who is the "injured party", and what injury occurred that will be redressed by the courts? The answer...None! Unless you hurt somebody in the process. So there is no subject matter jurisdiction for the court to adjudicate.

    Some more food for thought here:
    The Supreme Court of the United States of America has determined, "All codes, rules, and regulations are for government authorities only, not human/Creators in accordance with God's laws. All codes, rules, and regulations are unconstitutional and lacking due process…" Rodriques v. Ray Donavan (U.S. Department of Labor) 769 F. 2d 1344, 1348 (1985).

    "There, every man is independent of all laws, except those prescribed by nature. He is not bound by any institutions formed by his fellowman without his consent." [Cruden v. Neale, 2 N.C. 338 (1796) 2 S.E.]

    Ever read your State Constitution? Here is a quote from mine "All people are born equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights; among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 07-28-2011 at 02:57 PM.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •