Upon demand by a Law Enforcement Officer

I'm curious, what do you guys think?

Like many of us do, if you're printing, holster is hanging below shirt, or you briefly display; can a police officer demand that you display your CWL and ID even though no crime has been committed? Usually we would say no, but this straight up says "UPON DEMAND BY A LEO."

How do you guys feel about this?

Wind blows your button up shirt open in front of a cop.
You're holster is hanging below your shirt line in front of a cop.
You're printing a huge bulge in your shirt in front of a cop.

He comes up and asks "are you carrying a firearm?"
Do you answer yes? Or you do you hit him with the am I being detained or am I free to go?

Schlitz said:

Code:

The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

I'm curious, what do you guys think?

Like many of us do, if you're printing, holster is hanging below shirt, or you briefly display; can a police officer demand that you display your CWL and ID even though no crime has been committed? Usually we would say no, but this straight up says "UPON DEMAND BY A LEO."

How do you guys feel about this?

Wind blows your button up shirt open in front of a cop.
You're holster is hanging below your shirt line in front of a cop.
You're printing a huge bulge in your shirt in front of a cop.

He comes up and asks "are you carrying a firearm?"
Do you answer yes? Or you do you hit him with the am I being detained or am I free to go?

Click to expand...

i have 2 answers for you:

first- if he SEES the gun, and you know he does, and demands ID, i would show it to him.


second- if he SUSPECTS you are carrying, and asks you, i would hit him with the "am i being detained or am i free to go?"

IANAL but i did stay at a holiday inn express...

something else to add here:

isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?

Schlitz said:

something else to add here:

isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?

Click to expand...

Carrying a firearm is, contra the state constitution, a crime in Florida, no matter the "manner" of carrying it. The state's permission slip creates an exception and gives you "privilege to carry" concealed, not "right to carry" like the NRA coins it.

I don't talk to antagonistic armed strangers. I don't know him and I just want to go home at the end of his shift. If he knew I was carrying I'd hand over the permission slip.

Schlitz said:

something else to add here:

isn't carrying a firearm in Florida a straight up crime? only people having a CWL are exempt from punishment?

so if a copy suspects you are carrying then he does indeed suspect a crime is being committed and has reasonable cause to believe you are committing the crime of excercising your constitutionaly protected rights. no?

Click to expand...

i thought there was case law saying that just because you think someone is carrying, it doesn't mean they are suspected of committing a crime?

hammer6 said:

i thought there was case law saying that just because you think someone is carrying, it doesn't mean they are suspected of committing a crime?

Click to expand...

anyone got sauce on this?

I think we're making this way more difficult than it needs to be.

You're in KFC. It's 10pm and close to closing time. You've reached for that last big chicken breast and your Colt Commander just peeked out "a bit" for maybe a second or two. No problem, except the two Sheriff's deputies on the late lunch break saw it and as you're wearing your pants down below your hips, got enough "art" to keep a circus in business and your 1947 Harley Davidson parked in the handicap zone is leaking oil all over the parking lot.

Now, I'm thinking that perhaps one of those officers MAY decide that you're enough "out of the ordinary" to maybe, just maybe, check to see if that Colt Commander is legal to be where it is (as in concealed). This would be where the suspected "crime" comes in as it is obviously illegal to carry a concealed weapon without a license, right?

So as to avoid any scene in the KFC, the officers duly wait until you're outside and as you're about to mount up, one of them asks, in a very nice way, if you've got a license for that excellent piece you've got slid down your belt.

At this point, you answer "why yes I do". They will then ask you to produce the license (as allowed by statute) and you do.

Your paperwork is in order, your license is correct and you're on your way.

No, you can NOT ask "Am I under arrest" as you haven't actually done anything yet, as far as they know. What they do know is that you have a gun and they would like to know if you're an upstanding citizen of the community. He just told you why he's asking you for identification, it's your "excellent piece" down your belt!

Your concealed weapons license says you MUST show identification on demand. It's one of the requirements of HAVING a CWL.

Or did I miss the original question completely??

AD (I don't even know where the nearest Holiday Inn actually is, so don't take anything I say as gospel!)

That stinks, but since carrying is a crime in FL I can understand their reasoning.

One iteration of our new cc bill had something similar, pretty much allowing any LEO at any time for any reason or no reason at all to walk up to someone & demand a permit, even if the person wasn't cc'ing.

I pointed out at an NRA-sponsored town hall event & again at a hearing in in front of half a dozen legislators that it was blatantly unconsitutional & should be changed...
and whaddayaknow - it was changed! :shocker:

Now it says something to the effect of "if you're carrying concealed (or openly in a place you're not allowed to carry w/o a permit) & the officer is acting lawfully you have to show your permission slip & ID."
(Yeah, they couldn't manage to put a picture on our permits).
I'm sure there will be some LEO who try to 'card' OCers, but that won't last long.

Schlitz said:

anyone got sauce on this?

Click to expand...

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...60411591&q=790.053&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_vis=1

"In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

How's that?

Rich7553 said:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...60411591&q=790.053&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_vis=1

"In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

How's that?

Click to expand...

You are the sauce boss. TONS and TONS of good information in here. Got any more sauce laying around? I'm eating this up.

Schlitz said:

You are the sauce boss. TONS and TONS of good information in here. Got any more sauce laying around? I'm eating this up.

Click to expand...

Well, you could also Google Florida v. J.L.. That one went to the US Supreme Court, but the circumstances were a bit different, and the court's conclusion was not relevant to this thread.

Here's a good question for all: Do you have a RIGHT to carry a firearm in Florida?

...

Answer: NO! You have a privilege granted by the State.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...ivileges+licensing&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_vis=1

"We find that retroactive application of section 790.06(2)(k), Florida Statutes, is not unconstitutional because a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm is a privilege and not a vested right."

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...+right&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_ylo=1987&as_vis=1

"We hold that retroactive application of section 493.6118(4) is not unconstitutional because a private investigator's license is not a property right, and the legislative determination, that a great public interest is served by denying the license to a convicted felon, is not arbitrary."

Not at all a post in opposition to what you've said, Rich but more of a 'food for thought' exercise - -

Does one have a right to drive a car upon public highways in Florida without a license?
Why cannot an officer pull over anyone he sees driving to make sure they are properly licensed and he can stop anyone he sees carrying a firearm to make sure they are properly licensed?

Why has a legal precedent been set for one licensed activity but not for the other?

Fallschirmjäger said:

Not at all a post in opposition to what you've said, Rich but more of a 'food for thought' exercise - -

Does one have a right to drive a car upon public highways in Florida without a license?
Why cannot an officer pull over anyone he sees driving to make sure they are properly licensed and he can stop anyone he sees carrying a firearm to make sure they are properly licensed?

Why has a legal precedent been set for one licensed activity but not for the other?

Click to expand...

Good question. One would think that since driving a car in the state is indeed a privilege, not a constitutionally protected right, that the officer should be able to pull over the car and not stop and ID a carrier. The only answer I can give is that the public would not stand for arbitrary stops of automobiles. In Wisconsin, for example, the recent case in Madison showed that police can request ID if they see you open carry, but cannot demand ID. In Florida, since when one is authorized to carry openly is in 790.25 not 790.06, one is not required to have a CWFL to carry openly while fishing for example. As far as ID goes, I don't know as I haven't researched it. But police have been known to overextend their authority when it comes to Terry stops.

Rich7553 said:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...60411591&q=790.053&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_vis=1

"In other words, the only information received by the officer was that the individual had a gun. Possession of a gun is not illegal in Florida. Even if it is concealed, it is not illegal if the carrier has obtained a concealed weapons permit. Although the officer observed a bulge in Regalado's waistband, which in his experience looked like a gun, no facts and circumstances were presented to show that Regalado's carrying of a concealed weapon was without a permit and thus illegal."

How's that?

Click to expand...

thanks bud

Rich7553 said:

Well, you could also Google Florida v. J.L.. That one went to the US Supreme Court, but the circumstances were a bit different, and the court's conclusion was not relevant to this thread.

Here's a good question for all: Do you have a RIGHT to carry a firearm in Florida?

...

Answer: NO! You have a privilege granted by the State.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...ivileges+licensing&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_vis=1

"We find that retroactive application of section 790.06(2)(k), Florida Statutes, is not unconstitutional because a license to carry a concealed weapon or firearm is a privilege and not a vested right."

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...+right&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10&as_ylo=1987&as_vis=1

"We hold that retroactive application of section 493.6118(4) is not unconstitutional because a private investigator's license is not a property right, and the legislative determination, that a great public interest is served by denying the license to a convicted felon, is not arbitrary."

Click to expand...

does that mean if we can get them to change the wording of this statute to mean a right and not a privilege, then we wouldn't have to worry about getting rid of briefly, or getting unlicensed open carry?




what about a case against the state saying that the whole CWL violates the florida constitution because it turns a right

(The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law)

into something that can only be obtained by a privilege?

or does that not make sense?

Rich7553 said:

Good question. One would think that since driving a car in the state is indeed a privilege, not a constitutionally protected right, that the officer should be able to pull over the car and not stop and ID a carrier. The only answer I can give is that the public would not stand for arbitrary stops of automobiles. In Wisconsin, for example, the recent case in Madison showed that police can request ID if they see you open carry, but cannot demand ID. In Florida, since when one is authorized to carry openly is in 790.25 not 790.06, one is not required to have a CWFL to carry openly while fishing for example. As far as ID goes, I don't know as I haven't researched it. But police have been known to overextend their authority when it comes to Terry stops.

Click to expand...

so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?

hammer6 said:

so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?

Click to expand...

That is kind of a known thing. A CWL is NOT required to fish and OC.

hammer6 said:

does that mean if we can get them to change the wording of this statute to mean a right and not a privilege, then we wouldn't have to worry about getting rid of briefly, or getting unlicensed open carry?




what about a case against the state saying that the whole CWL violates the florida constitution because it turns a right

(The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law)

into something that can only be obtained by a privilege?

or does that not make sense?

Click to expand...

Well, current statute does indeed regulate the manner of bearing arms. I don't think we're going to be successful there. However, Florida Carry is very carefully watching several federal court cases that may directly impact this issue.

hammer6 said:

so you're saying when i fish and OC, i don't need my license? because the statute makes OC legal without a permit while fishing?

Click to expand...

That is correct. The statute is clear on this.

However, should you decide to put your open carried gun in your pocket for some reason, then you WILL need the license!

Strange but true.

AD (you still need a fishing license though)

Schlitz said:

That is kind of a known thing. A CWL is NOT required to fish and OC.

Click to expand...

thanks- never knew that.