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Thread: Why do You Open Carry?

  1. #1
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    Why do You Open Carry?

    Please everyone, don't take this the wrong way.

    I am a retired peace officer. I have dealt with my share of open Carry citizens in the past, and every time I
    have encountered OC citizen I have asked the same question, but never gotten what I thought was a straightforward answer. My question is simple, Why open Carry? I know it is your right, that I get, but besides you wanting to exercise your right, why?

    Does carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster somehow make you feel safer, because it shouldn't. I know that you are not looking for a confrontation, but honestly speaking, just advertising that you have a gun is an invitation for someone to either take you on, or make you do something that you possibly should not. Don't get me wrong, I am all for citizens being able to legally carry a loaded and concealed firearm. I think the hole CCW process in most departments is a joke, because they choose not to issue concealed weapons permits to citizens who have valid reasons for having them.

    Believe me I have looked at this issue from both sides, both as being a officer who would receive calls regarding people who were legally OC, and from the stand point of the people who were OC and could not or would not get a CCW permit. Its a crying shame that we as americans have to worry about protecting ourselves with deadly force, but that is the world we live it. How are OC going to defend them selves by bringing a pretty paper weight to a gun fight?

    It just seems to me that with all the organization that this movement has, and with all it's members that you could not or would not band together to get some of the laws of the states that do not have a rational concealed weapons permitting changed. I understand that as Police officers we can not be everywhere, and sometimes we have to depend upon the citizens to protect and defend themselves, But honestly how are you going to protect yourselves or your loved ones with an unloaded firearm?

    Do you think that the mere sight of a gun is going to have a criminal think twice or quake in their shoes? I can only speak from my experience, but I am certain that criminals don't care if you have a gun and order them to stop. As a mater of fact in the last couple of years prior to retiring, I found that some criminals are getting hip to the open carry movement. In the city I worked for, one OC citizen was actually robbed at gunpoint by a suspect who's sole intent was to steal his firearm. After the suspects arrest, he made a comment to the effect that he had seen the OC stuff on T.V. and felt that if he carried his loaded firearm, he could certainly steal more firearms from people who carried them unloaded. It made sense to me! What is to prevent him or other criminals like him from going to an OC gathering, befriending a OC citizen who's gun he likes or wants, and actually using his loaded firearm to take your unloaded firearm. True most bad guys like to take the easy way, and shooting someone for a gun is the hard way, but it could happen. I will never know if in the one case that I spoke of, if the OC citizen had resisted what the suspect would have done, but it stands to reason that he did not bring a loaded firearm to the robbery just to look tough.

    I hated getting calls of citizens who were OC and then have to do a 12031(e) check just to determine that they were in fact OC citizens and not some suspect out there waiting for the opportunity to commit a crime. What does an unloaded and open carried firearm tell me, well for right now it tells me barring any other information, that you are a citizen that is legally carrying a firearm. But remember you pay all officers to be suspicious. In the purest of forms OC citizens are not criminals, but all it takes is some smart criminals and then we have a problem. I can show you video after video of criminals either in jail or in prison going over laws and loopholes, techniques and tactics to use the law to their advantage and to lie, cheat, steal and murder their way to where they want to be. No not all criminals are smart, but I hate to say it, if they stay in their business of being criminals long enough, a majority of them learn how to work the system.

    The other problem that I had with quite a few but not all OC is their attitude towards LEO's. Weather it is not wanting to submit to a 12031(e) check, or the barbs, jabs, and pokes about "rights" and how as LEO's we violated their rights.... Bottom line I hope OC citizens are carrying not just for show. What I mean by this is if you are going to carry a firearm, weather it be loaded or unloaded, you better have the intent and skill to use it if your life depends on it. Tying up Police resources by debating weather or not LEO's have the right to conduct 12031(e) checks, and field interviews (not detentions!) is only going against what I hope OC citizens stand for, protection of life and liberty.

    I guess I will get off my soap box by concluding by saying as OC citizens, you should organize, lobby, protest, hell do what ever it legally takes to get your rights expanded so you can carry concealed or for that mater openly loaded. Let me know what you think. I might not have the right answer, but I can at least i admit that while I might not have the right answer, I am sure it is not the only answer to deal with this issue so that your rights are protected, and LEO's can breath just a little easier. Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you. - Lawdog

  2. #2
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Why don't patrol officers wear plain clothes and drive less distinctively configured vehicles?
    Why don't patrol officers wear clothing that conceals their firearms so as to present a less threatening or imposing figure to the public?

    Wouldn't it be easier to detect speed violators or those who violate other driving ordinances if you could blend into traffic?
    Wouldn't it be easier to walk up to a suspected criminal if you were in a Hawaiian shirt and flip flops instead of in uniform with a shiny badge and an easily visible gun on your hip?

    Carrying an unloaded firearm probably shouldn't make anyone feel 'safe', but it's certainly safer to have an unloaded firearm that can be loaded as opposed to not being able to carry at all.

    No one is 'tying up Police resources' as we do not have the Authority to demand that officers perform an "(e)-check", that's up to the officer not the carrier. You say you "have to do" the check. What is the California Code that requires you do do so?

    And I think we can all lay the blame for not being able to carry loaded squarely with the legislature of California.



    As for me, why do I openly carry a loaded firearm?
    For the same reason that I openly wear my Magen David, because I have nothing to to be ashamed of, nothing to hide and no therefor no reason to conceal.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 07-26-2011 at 09:44 PM.

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    Well Lawdawg let's start out with some facts. It's a fact that nearly 70% of criminals say the reason the don't commit burglaries when people are home is because they are afraid to get shot. So that tells me right off that openly carrying my loaded firearm in the great state of ky is automatically going to scare off at least 7 out of 10 criminals maybe more. It's a fact that our right to open carry is a god given right ad protected by our nations constitution, and my states constitution. The fact that folk in Cali have to carry unloaded is insane, yet the liberals have eroded so many rights away, it's nearly impossible in ur State to obtain a ccarry license. The statement you made of understanding it's citizens rights to do so in Cali yet you would still stop them makes me a lil uneasy. You use the excuse to make sue they aren't a criminal but it's also proven by the FBI that well over 90% of criminals conceal their weapons, yet even if you was to confront a non law abidding carrier, are you gonna illegally search their identity without their consent to do so? I know many leo's in my state that have no concern for us open carriers because they know we do not commit crimes, and it's a right that in my state they have no right to stop us for r disarm us, which would certainly get them into a lawsuit if they tried, which it should in all states, BC it's constitutionally protected and leo's work for the people, not against us. As far as someone taking our gun gripe, wouldn't it b better for all leo's to conceal instead of openly carry?? Are you upholding the constitution when you detain someone opencarrying to see if they're firearm is loaded.....no ur not! Would I stop someone for exercising their rights? Absolutely not! People like you want to make it harder and harder to exercise our rights, talln about gun grabs and criminals doing it??? I cant think of a single incident of an open carrier in ky, but there is plenty where criminals were unlawfully carrying concealed. And we can openly carry any dangerous weapon in every govt building in the state and ne where else we want, and in our vehicles without a license, yet i do have a cdwp, just so I can carry in the 35 states that honor it. Your gripes are unfounded. U support concealed carry, yet that is wat well over 90% of criminals do unlawfully, not openly like u state. And will u please give a link to this incident of the open carry criminal that was takn peoples guns with his loaded gun?? I like stories that have merit. You drive a vehicle, but there is always the chance it will get stolen and a much greater chance it will kill someone than a firearm will, y aren't you ranting about that as well?? Because your a cop that seems to believe it should all b ur way, an make up insane theories to try and sway people in your direction. Thank god more people are owning firearms these days, and the supreme court is ruling in us private citizens favor when it comes to our firearm rights... Please don't forget that it is a right, and if we wanna carry, it shouldn't matter why, but for me because I can, to educate people on their rights, and to protect my young family, cause ud have to b a pretty dumb criminal to try and attack me, with my openly carried glock 20 and the 29 on my ankle.....

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    Lawdog,
    when and where was that case of a UOC advocate being robbed? I have been a leader of the OC community in the bay area for almost 3 years. Been OCing long before that.

    I have never heard of this case. It has not made the papers, or the net.

    Sorry, until you prove this, you are nothing but a troll

  5. #5
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    I think the real problem is that Lawdog thinks he has standing to question another human being's basic right to self-defense.

    He doesn't. All the discussion in the direction of answering his questions plays into the false premise that he, or anybody, has standing to question someone on it.

    Proceed from that position, fellas. Gently.

    It is a fundamental human right.

  6. #6
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    no
    do not answer his question until he answers mine. that simple.

    The case he is talking about has not happened. I would have heard of it if it did.

    I will say this, I believe he is lying to make his point. IF he proves the case, then I will admit I was wrong.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Philosophical BS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    Please everyone, don't take this the wrong way.
    As a retiree you have been at the peace keeping business for a bit. Please articulate how you believe we as a nation have come to the state we are now with regard to fearing firearms and the perceived public fear of private citizens open carrying firearms.

    How did we get to the state of affairs where kids think it is ok to run around shooting airsoft and paint ball guns from moving cars after dark in Walmart parking lots. (Walmart gangsters ) Leadership, integrity and personal accountability are not instilled in young men and women as they were when you started out your career. Why is that?? I know the answer it is rhetorical.

    ~Whitney


    Why I Open Carry

    My old grandpa said to me, "Son, there comes a time in every man's
    life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and
    usually it's when he becomes too old to take an ass whoopin'."

    I don't have a gun to kill people. I have a gun to keep from being
    killed.

    I don't have a gun to scare people. I have a gun because sometimes
    this world can be a scary place.

    I don't have a gun because I'm paranoid. I have a gun because there
    are real threats in the world.

    I don't have a gun because I'm evil. I have a gun because I have
    lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

    I don't have a gun because I hate the government. I have a gun
    because I understand the limitations of government.

    I don't have a gun because I'm angry. I have a gun so that I don't
    have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be
    prepared.

    I don't have a gun because I want to shoot someone. I have a gun
    because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a
    sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

    I don't have a gun because I'm a cowboy. I have a gun because, when
    I die and go to Heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

    I don't have a gun to make me feel like a man. I have a gun because
    men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

    I don't have a gun because I feel inadequate. I have a gun because
    unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

    I don't have a gun because I love it. I have a gun because I love
    life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

    "Police Protection" is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect
    themselves. Police do not protect you from crime; they usually just
    investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to
    clean up the mess.

    Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old
    to take an ass whoopin'.
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

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    My first post here.

    I have no idea where you live but carrying a gun openly and not having it loaded is doing it wrong IMO.

    When I open carry* my 9MM P-85 its loaded with 9+1 (115) grain hollow points, one in the chamber and 9/15 in the mag.

    Ok, why do I open carry?
    Because its easier for me to carry that way, and provides faster and easier access to my firearm.
    It lets people know I am armed, and I am not ashamed of it.
    I don't feel the need to hide my gun.
    Other people have told me they feel safer knowing I have a gun ready when I work my second job (first job does not allow me to carry OTC).
    I open carry because I want to know if things go bad I can quickly reach my firearm.

    I personally do think that most people would avoid causing trouble with a openly armed person.
    Carrying openly is a defensive measure, hiding it is a offensive one.
    I know if I was going to rob a place I would avoid areas where I knew people would be armed for places where it's less likely that they are armed.

    LEO here have no issue with me (or the few others) openly carrying because they know its legal, besides if I was going to commit a robbery I would want to hide it for a surprise element. Not openly walk around with it.




    I have a CCDW permit on the way to me, but Ill still open carry.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan357 View Post
    My first post here.

    I have no idea where you live but carrying a gun openly and not having it loaded is doing it wrong IMO.

    When I open carry* my 9MM P-85 its loaded with 9+1 (115) grain hollow points, one in the chamber and 9/15 in the mag.

    Ok, why do I open carry?
    Because its easier for me to carry that way, and provides faster and easier access to my firearm.
    It lets people know I am armed, and I am not ashamed of it.
    I don't feel the need to hide my gun.
    Other people have told me they feel safer knowing I have a gun ready when I work my second job (first job does not allow me to carry OTC).
    I open carry because I want to know if things go bad I can quickly reach my firearm.

    I personally do think that most people would avoid causing trouble with a openly armed person.
    Carrying openly is a defensive measure, hiding it is a offensive one.
    I know if I was going to rob a place I would avoid areas where I knew people would be armed for places where it's less likely that they are armed.

    LEO here have no issue with me (or the few others) openly carrying because they know its legal, besides if I was going to commit a robbery I would want to hide it for a surprise element. Not openly walk around with it.




    I have a CCDW permit on the way to me, but Ill still open carry.
    Welcome to OCDO!! Stick around and you will learn a lot!!!!! I think California is unique when it comes to UOC, but they always want to be different anyways. Good, strong first post by the way...
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  10. #10
    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Because I can.

    I need no other reason than that. If that is not good enough for you, tough luck.

    Edit : I no longer live in California either, however.. From what I understand the 12031(e) check violates the rights of "We The People". I guess if you are into that sort of of thing, violating peoples rights against The Constitution and what our country was founded on.. Wait.. Um..

    n/m
    Last edited by VW_Factor; 07-27-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Because it's my right and I never carry unloaded. Round in the chamber and max magazine capacity. Sometimes as a political statement, sometimes to remind people that it is our heritage sometimes because it's simpler, sometimes to remind people that you can't count on the police and you have to have the ability and means to defend yourself and those around you. Sometimes to remind the government that there are limits to what we will allow them to do.
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    My question is simple, Why open Carry? I know it is your right, that I get, but besides you wanting to exercise your right, why?
    Guys he said this is just a simple question. Lets end the essays and give him a simple answer.


    Lawdog, we open carry for the same reason you do. /thread.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  13. #13
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    Please everyone, don't take this the wrong way.

    I am a retired peace officer.
    Since I did answer your question I have a couple for you.

    In your 20 years as a LEO how many crimes did you prevent? In your 20 years as a LEO how many crimes were committed in your AO?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    And then there is this.

    An LEO, when acting in the performance of his duties (as in on the job), carries a firearm not because it his right, but because we have given him the authority to do this. On the other hand, a citizen always carries because it is his right.

    So an answer to an LEO who would ask a citizen, "Why are you carrying a gun?" might be, "Do you know why you carry one officer?". He might answer, "Because it's my job" to which we could reply, "No, it's because we allow you to do so".
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 07-28-2011 at 05:40 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    ...As for me, why do I openly carry a loaded firearm?...because I have nothing to to be ashamed of, nothing to hide and no therefor no reason to conceal.
    I couldn't agree more:

    Why do I Open Carry?

    It keeps me away from trouble and trouble away from me.

  16. #16
    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Still looking like a Troll, lawdog. Would love to see you come back and actually have a conversation about this :Lol:
    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Lawdog is from California. I think that should explain everything.
    'Nuff said.

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    But remember you pay all officers to be suspicious.
    Wrong. I pay police officers to protect my individual rights to life, liberty and property...and damn it, I want my money back.

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    I do not know what dept this "lawdog" was in, he did not say.

    I do not believe that he was even a LEO's. He is a TROLL.

    Do not answer his questions until he has the guts to answer mine. I have been very active in leadership of OC the bay area for over 2 yrs, and been oc'ing for years.

    There has been NO CASE that I know of in CA where an OC'er has been robbed. I have asked 2 others that would have heard about it also, and NO ONE has.

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    Response to: Why do You OC

    O.K. Guy's,

    like I said in my previous post, Please Don't Take This The Wrong Way.

    I did not come on here to ruffle any feathers. My purpose of coming on here was to bring up questions I had, so I could better understand the OC movement. Yes it is true, I live and worked for a Law Enforcement Agency in California. Yes it is true that California has some of the most stringent laws when it comes to firearms. Do I think that these laws are right, No I do not. Do I think the rights of gun owners in this state are being infringed upon, yes I do. Do I think that your organization could do something productive to help further the rights of all Californian's when it comes to gun ownership and how these guns are lawfully carried, I most certainly do.

    You all have the power as an organization to lobby to get laws in this state and others changed. As individuals sure you can contact your elected officials and voice how you feel about certain laws, but as a organization you have the power to not only voice your concerns, but actually have a lot of muscle and clout to get your beliefs to become law. Again I didn't come on here to argue weather you are right or others are right when it comes to gun issues and how you can legally carry a firearm, but rather point out that while how you currently carry your firearm in California is legal, it is in part not functional because you advertise that the gun is unloaded.

    Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely. Criminals on the other hand, well lets just say that they are willing to take certain risks that you are I are not. True criminals, and I am not talking about the person who makes a mistake in life and gets caught, but true criminals who are the type of people who either don't think about the consequences of their actions, or don't care about the consequences, are far more likely to actually use a firearm then you or I. Bottom line is it is your right to carry an unloaded firearm in California and it may act as a deterrent to a majority of criminals that will choose a "easier target". Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners. While it is true that some if not most of you could load your gun probably quicker than most people could fathom, you still have to take the time to perceive a threat, load the weapon, take aim, and fire the weapon. Basically what I am arguing is that you should have the right to have that weapon all ready loaded!

    One of the writers stated that he had not ever heard of the case I spoke of where a person who was legally OC had his firearm stolen from him at gunpoint. What a surprise! Well speaking for the victim of that crime, would you really want it to get out that this happened and worse yet it happened to you! I can tell you this having met the victim, I am positive that he did not want this to go public and was quite embarrassed and yes frightened by the hole event. While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results. While it is public record, my agency fearing other instances of the same event occurring, did not issue a press release. Quite honestly speaking yes I can understand from your point of view, why you think I may be full of crap, but I only mentioned that incident to get you to consider why you carry a unloaded paper weight. Had it not been common knowledge that the firearm was unloaded, I would just about bet that the suspect in the case I spoke of would have moved on to a easier target, such as burglarizing a residence or gun store to get what he sought, which in this case was a firearm. In all sincerity I am not going to release the victims name, provide you with a report number, or tell you the city in which this occurred out of respect for the victim and my superiors who chose to keep this information from the press. I will tell you this, without saying to much, this occurred in San Mateo County after 2005, and their are only 23 agencies in which you will have to check, and if you really want to read about the case, it is public record. If you want to doubt me or call me a lier that is fine to, be ignorant.

    I'm not going to debate carrying openly or concealed at this time. In my experience (and only my experience) I have found that I am able to accomplish the goal of protecting myself quite capably by carry the weapon concealed. It has also been my experience that carrying a firearm concealed tends to not ruffle the feathers of the non-gun public out there. If I am able to accomplish my goal of protecting myself and my family without ******* off the rest of the citizenry out there, then I feel all is good in the world. Again this is just my experience.

    I guess what I am trying to point out is that I never had any problem with people OC, other than they were walking around town advertising that they have chosen to cary an unloaded firearm in public. My hope is that instead of being part of a possible problem, you could be part of a possible solution. Carrying a loaded firearm weather it be concealed or worn openly will be far more of a deterrent than carrying an unloaded firearm. Lets be clear here I am not advocating breaking the law by caring a loaded firearm, but I am advocating that an armed (and loaded) citizenry can better help them selfs than an unarmed public. No I don't want anyone to go out there and perform law enforcement duties, but if the situation calls for a person to defend him or herself, then I think that they ought to be allowed to do so and not be burdened by laws that only allow them to carry around a threatening paperweight.

    So now that I have said what I came here to say, I would like to know what you think. Thanks for taking the time to read the entire post, and providing me with any insight I might not be aware of. - Lawdog

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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely.
    Oh come off of it! I am so sick of hearing this "officer safety" crap. Your profession is not even near the top of the list in terms of occupational mortality. Besides, presumably the police are PAID to take certain risks to defend life, liberty and property. There is no draft for cops in this country; every single one is a volunteer. If they're too scared to do their jobs while respecting the rights of the citizenry (their bosses), they should find alternate employment.

    Every intelligent person treats every gun as if it is loaded. What your colleagues do is use "officer safety" as a pretext to deprive us of our rights as you hound us for revenue.

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    Lawdog,
    Well said. Maybe you could rally the troops as an able body for change?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Why are the politicians in California so afraid of "allowing" the people the right to protect themselves, while just across the river in Arizona the politicians are not?
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

  24. #24
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    O.K. Guy's,

    like I said in my previous post, Please Don't Take This The Wrong Way.

    I did not come on here to ruffle any feathers. My purpose of coming on here was to bring up questions I had, so I could better understand the OC movement. Yes it is true, I live and worked for a Law Enforcement Agency in California. Yes it is true that California has some of the most stringent laws when it comes to firearms. Do I think that these laws are right, No I do not. Do I think the rights of gun owners in this state are being infringed upon, yes I do. Do I think that your organization could do something productive to help further the rights of all Californian's when it comes to gun ownership and how these guns are lawfully carried, I most certainly do.

    You all have the power as an organization to lobby to get laws in this state and others changed. As individuals sure you can contact your elected officials and voice how you feel about certain laws, but as a organization you have the power to not only voice your concerns, but actually have a lot of muscle and clout to get your beliefs to become law. Again I didn't come on here to argue weather you are right or others are right when it comes to gun issues and how you can legally carry a firearm, but rather point out that while how you currently carry your firearm in California is legal, it is in part not functional because you advertise that the gun is unloaded.

    Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely. Criminals on the other hand, well lets just say that they are willing to take certain risks that you are I are not. True criminals, and I am not talking about the person who makes a mistake in life and gets caught, but true criminals who are the type of people who either don't think about the consequences of their actions, or don't care about the consequences, are far more likely to actually use a firearm then you or I. Bottom line is it is your right to carry an unloaded firearm in California and it may act as a deterrent to a majority of criminals that will choose a "easier target". Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners. While it is true that some if not most of you could load your gun probably quicker than most people could fathom, you still have to take the time to perceive a threat, load the weapon, take aim, and fire the weapon. Basically what I am arguing is that you should have the right to have that weapon all ready loaded!

    One of the writers stated that he had not ever heard of the case I spoke of where a person who was legally OC had his firearm stolen from him at gunpoint. What a surprise! Well speaking for the victim of that crime, would you really want it to get out that this happened and worse yet it happened to you! I can tell you this having met the victim, I am positive that he did not want this to go public and was quite embarrassed and yes frightened by the hole event. While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results. While it is public record, my agency fearing other instances of the same event occurring, did not issue a press release. Quite honestly speaking yes I can understand from your point of view, why you think I may be full of crap, but I only mentioned that incident to get you to consider why you carry a unloaded paper weight. Had it not been common knowledge that the firearm was unloaded, I would just about bet that the suspect in the case I spoke of would have moved on to a easier target, such as burglarizing a residence or gun store to get what he sought, which in this case was a firearm. In all sincerity I am not going to release the victims name, provide you with a report number, or tell you the city in which this occurred out of respect for the victim and my superiors who chose to keep this information from the press. I will tell you this, without saying to much, this occurred in San Mateo County after 2005, and their are only 23 agencies in which you will have to check, and if you really want to read about the case, it is public record. If you want to doubt me or call me a lier that is fine to, be ignorant.

    I'm not going to debate carrying openly or concealed at this time. In my experience (and only my experience) I have found that I am able to accomplish the goal of protecting myself quite capably by carry the weapon concealed. It has also been my experience that carrying a firearm concealed tends to not ruffle the feathers of the non-gun public out there. If I am able to accomplish my goal of protecting myself and my family without ******* off the rest of the citizenry out there, then I feel all is good in the world. Again this is just my experience.

    I guess what I am trying to point out is that I never had any problem with people OC, other than they were walking around town advertising that they have chosen to cary an unloaded firearm in public. My hope is that instead of being part of a possible problem, you could be part of a possible solution. Carrying a loaded firearm weather it be concealed or worn openly will be far more of a deterrent than carrying an unloaded firearm. Lets be clear here I am not advocating breaking the law by caring a loaded firearm, but I am advocating that an armed (and loaded) citizenry can better help them selfs than an unarmed public. No I don't want anyone to go out there and perform law enforcement duties, but if the situation calls for a person to defend him or herself, then I think that they ought to be allowed to do so and not be burdened by laws that only allow them to carry around a threatening paperweight.

    So now that I have said what I came here to say, I would like to know what you think. Thanks for taking the time to read the entire post, and providing me with any insight I might not be aware of. - Lawdog
    Lawdog;

    Some of the folks on this site can get a little uncivil at times with their responses and this site is not unique in this. The fact that you have responded as you have with this post speaks well of you and your position. You should be commended for rising above the rippled waters.

    This sentence comes across to me as being the salient point for Californians to consider;

    "Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners."


    Here in Virginia, as in most states, we don't have this problem. We can carry as we see fit for our specific wants and needs at the given time. I know of no one in my circle of friends and acquaintances in the open or concealed carry arena who carries a firearm that is not in full battery all the time it is on their person. We tend to believe that is insanity at work and a disaster just waiting to happen.

    Were I to live in California, which ain't gonna happen, I'm not sure what I'd do but I have to believe I would want to live in a county the issuance of a carry permit is a simple matter. That way at least I would have some measure of real protection on my person. I don't believe I would be of a mind to OC an unloaded gun, not only for the reasons you have posted but also for my own comfort level.... unless I was attending a rally in Sacramento to get the state law changed.

    Anyway, good job and nice post. Glad you were able to retire in one piece and alive.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Lawdog,

    As a matter of civil rights, a lot of questions about carrying openly, concealed, licensed, unlicensed, registered, loaded, unloaded, when, and where will be answered soon by the Supreme Court. There are lots of cases making their way up right now and the circuit courts are split on these issues. When there is a circuit split SCOTUS usually steps in.

    Some of your comments are highly debatable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    ...
    Does carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster somehow make you feel safer, because it shouldn't. I know that you are not looking for a confrontation, but honestly speaking, just advertising that you have a gun is an invitation for someone to either take you on, or make you do something that you possibly should not.
    The situation in California is completely unique to the United States. That is the only place in the country where people commonly carry an unloaded gun.
    There is a post you should read from another forum that will address many of your practical questions. See: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...-argument.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    In the city I worked for, one OC citizen was actually robbed at gunpoint by a suspect who's sole intent was to steal his firearm. After the suspects arrest, he made a comment to the effect that he had seen the OC stuff on T.V. and felt that if he carried his loaded firearm, he could certainly steal more firearms from people who carried them unloaded. It made sense to me! What is to prevent him or other criminals like him from going to an OC gathering, befriending a OC citizen who's gun he likes or wants, and actually using his loaded firearm to take your unloaded firearm. True most bad guys like to take the easy way, and shooting someone for a gun is the hard way, but it could happen.

    Throughout the rest of the US, an attempt to disarm someone carrying a gun can be a win or die proposition for both the attacker and the victim. I would not hesitate to open fire on an attacker who is attempting to gain control of my weapon if I though it necessary to stop the attempt. As a LEO I am sure you have had retention training. You can and should use all force necessary, up to and including lethal force, to keep control of your firearm. There are easier and better targets to rob. Most crooks will wait for the unarmed guy with the Rolex. Because once in your entire time as a LEO you heard about this happening does not mean it commonly happens. Your story, that oddly you say is public record yet you refuse to point it or reference, would be only the second such incident I have been made aware of ever happening nationwide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawdog View Post
    How are OC going to defend them selves by bringing a pretty paper weight to a gun fight?
    Like I said, CA is unique with its arguably unconstitutional unloaded requirement. And you are right, it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. We'll just have to let the courts do their work to catch CA up the the rest of the country.

    12031(e) checks...
    Carrying a firearm is not prima facie evidence that it is loaded. Heller already tells us that no law can require that the gun be unloaded. Unfortunatly Heller has not yet been applied outside the home. Unconstitutional, wait for the courts...
    Police also don't get to pull anyone over to just check their driver's license or open their trunk during a traffic stop to make sure it isn't full of endangered frogs. Many state supreme courts have held that people carrying, openly or concealed, can't be stopped to have their license checked. In my state you have to show your license to carry on demand by a law enforcement officer. But the courts have ruled that an officer can't make that demand just because he sees a firearm or a bulge. Just carrying a gun in a non-prohibited place does not satisfy the standard in Terry for a stop to check for a carry license, or determine that the pistol is not fully automatic, or missing its serial number, etc.

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