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Why do You Open Carry?

ManInBlack

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
1,551
Location
SW Idaho
Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely.

Oh come off of it! I am so sick of hearing this "officer safety" crap. Your profession is not even near the top of the list in terms of occupational mortality. Besides, presumably the police are PAID to take certain risks to defend life, liberty and property. There is no draft for cops in this country; every single one is a volunteer. If they're too scared to do their jobs while respecting the rights of the citizenry (their bosses), they should find alternate employment.

Every intelligent person treats every gun as if it is loaded. What your colleagues do is use "officer safety" as a pretext to deprive us of our rights as you hound us for revenue.
 

Phoenix David

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
605
Location
Glendale, Arizona, USA
Why are the politicians in California so afraid of "allowing" the people the right to protect themselves, while just across the river in Arizona the politicians are not?
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
O.K. Guy's,

like I said in my previous post, Please Don't Take This The Wrong Way.

I did not come on here to ruffle any feathers. My purpose of coming on here was to bring up questions I had, so I could better understand the OC movement. Yes it is true, I live and worked for a Law Enforcement Agency in California. Yes it is true that California has some of the most stringent laws when it comes to firearms. Do I think that these laws are right, No I do not. Do I think the rights of gun owners in this state are being infringed upon, yes I do. Do I think that your organization could do something productive to help further the rights of all Californian's when it comes to gun ownership and how these guns are lawfully carried, I most certainly do.

You all have the power as an organization to lobby to get laws in this state and others changed. As individuals sure you can contact your elected officials and voice how you feel about certain laws, but as a organization you have the power to not only voice your concerns, but actually have a lot of muscle and clout to get your beliefs to become law. Again I didn't come on here to argue weather you are right or others are right when it comes to gun issues and how you can legally carry a firearm, but rather point out that while how you currently carry your firearm in California is legal, it is in part not functional because you advertise that the gun is unloaded.

Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely. Criminals on the other hand, well lets just say that they are willing to take certain risks that you are I are not. True criminals, and I am not talking about the person who makes a mistake in life and gets caught, but true criminals who are the type of people who either don't think about the consequences of their actions, or don't care about the consequences, are far more likely to actually use a firearm then you or I. Bottom line is it is your right to carry an unloaded firearm in California and it may act as a deterrent to a majority of criminals that will choose a "easier target". Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners. While it is true that some if not most of you could load your gun probably quicker than most people could fathom, you still have to take the time to perceive a threat, load the weapon, take aim, and fire the weapon. Basically what I am arguing is that you should have the right to have that weapon all ready loaded!

One of the writers stated that he had not ever heard of the case I spoke of where a person who was legally OC had his firearm stolen from him at gunpoint. What a surprise! Well speaking for the victim of that crime, would you really want it to get out that this happened and worse yet it happened to you! I can tell you this having met the victim, I am positive that he did not want this to go public and was quite embarrassed and yes frightened by the hole event. While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results. While it is public record, my agency fearing other instances of the same event occurring, did not issue a press release. Quite honestly speaking yes I can understand from your point of view, why you think I may be full of crap, but I only mentioned that incident to get you to consider why you carry a unloaded paper weight. Had it not been common knowledge that the firearm was unloaded, I would just about bet that the suspect in the case I spoke of would have moved on to a easier target, such as burglarizing a residence or gun store to get what he sought, which in this case was a firearm. In all sincerity I am not going to release the victims name, provide you with a report number, or tell you the city in which this occurred out of respect for the victim and my superiors who chose to keep this information from the press. I will tell you this, without saying to much, this occurred in San Mateo County after 2005, and their are only 23 agencies in which you will have to check, and if you really want to read about the case, it is public record. If you want to doubt me or call me a lier that is fine to, be ignorant.

I'm not going to debate carrying openly or concealed at this time. In my experience (and only my experience) I have found that I am able to accomplish the goal of protecting myself quite capably by carry the weapon concealed. It has also been my experience that carrying a firearm concealed tends to not ruffle the feathers of the non-gun public out there. If I am able to accomplish my goal of protecting myself and my family without ******* off the rest of the citizenry out there, then I feel all is good in the world. Again this is just my experience.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that I never had any problem with people OC, other than they were walking around town advertising that they have chosen to cary an unloaded firearm in public. My hope is that instead of being part of a possible problem, you could be part of a possible solution. Carrying a loaded firearm weather it be concealed or worn openly will be far more of a deterrent than carrying an unloaded firearm. Lets be clear here I am not advocating breaking the law by caring a loaded firearm, but I am advocating that an armed (and loaded) citizenry can better help them selfs than an unarmed public. No I don't want anyone to go out there and perform law enforcement duties, but if the situation calls for a person to defend him or herself, then I think that they ought to be allowed to do so and not be burdened by laws that only allow them to carry around a threatening paperweight.

So now that I have said what I came here to say, I would like to know what you think. Thanks for taking the time to read the entire post, and providing me with any insight I might not be aware of. - Lawdog

Lawdog;

Some of the folks on this site can get a little uncivil at times with their responses and this site is not unique in this. The fact that you have responded as you have with this post speaks well of you and your position. You should be commended for rising above the rippled waters.

This sentence comes across to me as being the salient point for Californians to consider;

"Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners."


Here in Virginia, as in most states, we don't have this problem. We can carry as we see fit for our specific wants and needs at the given time. I know of no one in my circle of friends and acquaintances in the open or concealed carry arena who carries a firearm that is not in full battery all the time it is on their person. We tend to believe that is insanity at work and a disaster just waiting to happen.

Were I to live in California, which ain't gonna happen, I'm not sure what I'd do but I have to believe I would want to live in a county the issuance of a carry permit is a simple matter. That way at least I would have some measure of real protection on my person. I don't believe I would be of a mind to OC an unloaded gun, not only for the reasons you have posted but also for my own comfort level.... unless I was attending a rally in Sacramento to get the state law changed.

Anyway, good job and nice post. Glad you were able to retire in one piece and alive.
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
Lawdog,

As a matter of civil rights, a lot of questions about carrying openly, concealed, licensed, unlicensed, registered, loaded, unloaded, when, and where will be answered soon by the Supreme Court. There are lots of cases making their way up right now and the circuit courts are split on these issues. When there is a circuit split SCOTUS usually steps in.

Some of your comments are highly debatable.
...
Does carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster somehow make you feel safer, because it shouldn't. I know that you are not looking for a confrontation, but honestly speaking, just advertising that you have a gun is an invitation for someone to either take you on, or make you do something that you possibly should not.

The situation in California is completely unique to the United States. That is the only place in the country where people commonly carry an unloaded gun.
There is a post you should read from another forum that will address many of your practical questions. See: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

In the city I worked for, one OC citizen was actually robbed at gunpoint by a suspect who's sole intent was to steal his firearm. After the suspects arrest, he made a comment to the effect that he had seen the OC stuff on T.V. and felt that if he carried his loaded firearm, he could certainly steal more firearms from people who carried them unloaded. It made sense to me! What is to prevent him or other criminals like him from going to an OC gathering, befriending a OC citizen who's gun he likes or wants, and actually using his loaded firearm to take your unloaded firearm. True most bad guys like to take the easy way, and shooting someone for a gun is the hard way, but it could happen.

Throughout the rest of the US, an attempt to disarm someone carrying a gun can be a win or die proposition for both the attacker and the victim. I would not hesitate to open fire on an attacker who is attempting to gain control of my weapon if I though it necessary to stop the attempt. As a LEO I am sure you have had retention training. You can and should use all force necessary, up to and including lethal force, to keep control of your firearm. There are easier and better targets to rob. Most crooks will wait for the unarmed guy with the Rolex. Because once in your entire time as a LEO you heard about this happening does not mean it commonly happens. Your story, that oddly you say is public record yet you refuse to point it or reference, would be only the second such incident I have been made aware of ever happening nationwide.

How are OC going to defend them selves by bringing a pretty paper weight to a gun fight?

Like I said, CA is unique with its arguably unconstitutional unloaded requirement. And you are right, it puts them at a distinct tactical disadvantage. We'll just have to let the courts do their work to catch CA up the the rest of the country.

12031(e) checks...
Carrying a firearm is not prima facie evidence that it is loaded. Heller already tells us that no law can require that the gun be unloaded. Unfortunatly Heller has not yet been applied outside the home. Unconstitutional, wait for the courts...
Police also don't get to pull anyone over to just check their driver's license or open their trunk during a traffic stop to make sure it isn't full of endangered frogs. Many state supreme courts have held that people carrying, openly or concealed, can't be stopped to have their license checked. In my state you have to show your license to carry on demand by a law enforcement officer. But the courts have ruled that an officer can't make that demand just because he sees a firearm or a bulge. Just carrying a gun in a non-prohibited place does not satisfy the standard in Terry for a stop to check for a carry license, or determine that the pistol is not fully automatic, or missing its serial number, etc.
 

okboomer

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
1,164
Location
Oklahoma, USA
Lawdog, thank you for responding. As you can imagine, we have had several trolls on occassion who come in here and try to stir things up to get someone to make an inappropriate statement.

As to your statement that in CA open carry is an advertisement that the gun is unloaded "come and get it," I cannot agree more. However, there are remedies that are available to the gun owner. Tactical hand gun training addresses this very situation in most classes ... practicing loading, chambering a round, and target acquisition is the responsibility of the gun owner. Situational awareness is another. I can only imagine the victim you reference had quite a bit of embarrassment stemming from the fact that he had let his guard down long enough for the BG to close within 'striking distance' ... again, a failure on the part of the gun owner to appreciate the condition he was forced to carry his weapon.

You will find that a majority of the folks on this site and other 2A/OC sites will advise new carriers to invest in additional training ... training specifically for retention and other tactical skills. You will also see folks reference the old addage, practice how you expect to use it ... meaning, if you see a rise in home invasions in your area, practice home defense tactics such as verifying who is at the door before opening it, answering the door with your pistol out and condition 1, keep your foot against the door to help slow down a push-in, etc.

Some folks don't have any option about going into high-risk areas of a community ... for ex. I have a cousin that lives in one of the most crime ridden areas of the metro and if I want to visit with her, I have to go there. I may arrive during daylight, but it can be as late as 9pm before I leave. The apartment complex does not provide very much lighting outside, but I am at a Condition Red when I walk out her door until I am on the road away from there.

I cannot predict that an incident will happen there, but statistically, it could happen. Since I have to carry concealed, I feel that makes me even more of a target similar to CA UOC. It doesn't stop me from going there, and IMHO, I have every right to go where I want, when I want and it should be "BGs beware" everywhere in the USA.

What I see as most valuable about your post is that you are former LEO and do support loaded carry. We can quibble about whether OC or CC is appropriate, but either way, neither of us should be limited in the way we carry just to protect some uninformed citizen's sensibilities. This is what led to the massive 'social/political correct' laws that are choking our nation today (taking Christ out of Christmas???) Guns are not the problem, preventing Law Abiding Citizens the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the problem that has led DIRECTLY to the prolifferation of gangs and drugs in this nation today.

The truth of the matter is, when you only have seconds between life and death, the police are only minutes away. LEO are a finite number at any one time and there is simply no way they can be everywhere a crime is being committed. If I want to conduct my lawful business, why can I not lawfully carry a pistol to protect myself when I am in fear for my life. Being LEO and it being known does not stop gun violence being committed story here . And, as you browse the forum, you will see that OC can and does prevent crime Kennesaw, but you are right that it needs to be loaded OC in CA rather than UOC.

I see you personally have two obsticals to over come ... advocacy for OC in CA is an uphill battle against the liberals in control of your state, and a former LEO advocating for OC will punch a lot of buttons in the LEO community. Whether you personally advocate publically or not, it will hold for any former LEO in your state.

Congratulations on your retirement.
 

Cavalryman

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
296
Location
Anchorage, Alaska
One of the writers stated that he had not ever heard of the case I spoke of where a person who was legally OC had his firearm stolen from him at gunpoint. What a surprise! Well speaking for the victim of that crime, would you really want it to get out that this happened and worse yet it happened to you! I can tell you this having met the victim, I am positive that he did not want this to go public and was quite embarrassed and yes frightened by the hole event. While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results. While it is public record, my agency fearing other instances of the same event occurring, did not issue a press release.

B.S. You don't have to issue a press release. Newspapers have people who go through the police reports -- public records -- routinely looking for stories. If this had happened, the media would have been on it like a whore on a $100 bill. It didn't happen. You're a liar.
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
Why people OC an unloaded firearm in Ca I don't know but what choice do they have? From my understanding permission slips are not easy to attain are they?

When the restrictions are made people get creative.

I live in Arkansas where OC is not allowed so I can't OC but I do if I visit other States.

The reason why I OC is the same reason people place stickers in windows stating their property is protected by... My loaded fire arm is my saying I'm protected please don't mess with me.

Now, I do know some businesses that will put stickers saying they are protected by cameras but not have any. It's the allusion. It's funny when people walk in and ask did you see me waving at the camera? If people just kept quiet you could have allowed the citizenry the allusion.
 
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Iopencarry

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
637
Location
Oakley, California, United States
B.S. You don't have to issue a press release. Newspapers have people who go through the police reports -- public records -- routinely looking for stories. If this had happened, the media would have been on it like a whore on a $100 bill. It didn't happen. You're a liar.


I agree, until he comes up with city, and case #. it did not happen.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
B.S. You don't have to issue a press release. Newspapers have people who go through the police reports -- public records -- routinely looking for stories. If this had happened, the media would have been on it like a whore on a $100 bill. It didn't happen. You're a liar.

Yep. BS.

If the poster ain't willing to post support, he should not use the story as support for his POV.

This ain't your typical message board. We (most of us, at least) expect folks to post evidence of purported events that happen off the board.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Please everyone, don't take this the wrong way.

I am a retired peace officer. I have dealt with my share of open Carry citizens in the past, and every time I
have encountered OC citizen I have asked the same question, but never gotten what I thought was a straightforward answer. My question is simple, Why open Carry? I know it is your right, that I get, but besides you wanting to exercise your right, why?

Does carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster somehow make you feel safer, because it shouldn't. I know that you are not looking for a confrontation, but honestly speaking, just advertising that you have a gun is an invitation for someone to either take you on, or make you do something that you possibly should not. Don't get me wrong, I am all for citizens being able to legally carry a loaded and concealed firearm. I think the hole CCW process in most departments is a joke, because they choose not to issue concealed weapons permits to citizens who have valid reasons for having them.

Believe me I have looked at this issue from both sides, both as being a officer who would receive calls regarding people who were legally OC, and from the stand point of the people who were OC and could not or would not get a CCW permit. Its a crying shame that we as americans have to worry about protecting ourselves with deadly force, but that is the world we live it. How are OC going to defend them selves by bringing a pretty paper weight to a gun fight?

It just seems to me that with all the organization that this movement has, and with all it's members that you could not or would not band together to get some of the laws of the states that do not have a rational concealed weapons permitting changed. I understand that as Police officers we can not be everywhere, and sometimes we have to depend upon the citizens to protect and defend themselves, But honestly how are you going to protect yourselves or your loved ones with an unloaded firearm?

Do you think that the mere sight of a gun is going to have a criminal think twice or quake in their shoes? I can only speak from my experience, but I am certain that criminals don't care if you have a gun and order them to stop. As a mater of fact in the last couple of years prior to retiring, I found that some criminals are getting hip to the open carry movement. In the city I worked for, one OC citizen was actually robbed at gunpoint by a suspect who's sole intent was to steal his firearm. After the suspects arrest, he made a comment to the effect that he had seen the OC stuff on T.V. and felt that if he carried his loaded firearm, he could certainly steal more firearms from people who carried them unloaded. It made sense to me! What is to prevent him or other criminals like him from going to an OC gathering, befriending a OC citizen who's gun he likes or wants, and actually using his loaded firearm to take your unloaded firearm. True most bad guys like to take the easy way, and shooting someone for a gun is the hard way, but it could happen. I will never know if in the one case that I spoke of, if the OC citizen had resisted what the suspect would have done, but it stands to reason that he did not bring a loaded firearm to the robbery just to look tough.

I hated getting calls of citizens who were OC and then have to do a 12031(e) check just to determine that they were in fact OC citizens and not some suspect out there waiting for the opportunity to commit a crime. What does an unloaded and open carried firearm tell me, well for right now it tells me barring any other information, that you are a citizen that is legally carrying a firearm. But remember you pay all officers to be suspicious. In the purest of forms OC citizens are not criminals, but all it takes is some smart criminals and then we have a problem. I can show you video after video of criminals either in jail or in prison going over laws and loopholes, techniques and tactics to use the law to their advantage and to lie, cheat, steal and murder their way to where they want to be. No not all criminals are smart, but I hate to say it, if they stay in their business of being criminals long enough, a majority of them learn how to work the system.

The other problem that I had with quite a few but not all OC is their attitude towards LEO's. Weather it is not wanting to submit to a 12031(e) check, or the barbs, jabs, and pokes about "rights" and how as LEO's we violated their rights.... Bottom line I hope OC citizens are carrying not just for show. What I mean by this is if you are going to carry a firearm, weather it be loaded or unloaded, you better have the intent and skill to use it if your life depends on it. Tying up Police resources by debating weather or not LEO's have the right to conduct 12031(e) checks, and field interviews (not detentions!) is only going against what I hope OC citizens stand for, protection of life and liberty.

I guess I will get off my soap box by concluding by saying as OC citizens, you should organize, lobby, protest, hell do what ever it legally takes to get your rights expanded so you can carry concealed or for that mater openly loaded. Let me know what you think. I might not have the right answer, but I can at least i admit that while I might not have the right answer, I am sure it is not the only answer to deal with this issue so that your rights are protected, and LEO's can breath just a little easier. Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you. - Lawdog

Carrying a "loaded" firearm makes me feel safer. Living in the Gulag of KA wouldn't. Neither would trusting police who act like the Gestapo in stepping on citizens' rights. That being said, I live in a Free State. Making the PDR one just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Being subjects is too inbred by now. Your post is thoughtful and I agree with many of your points. But, doing the so called 'e-check' is up to the cop. You didn't have to do it, so if someone is peacefully engaged in a lawful activity why do it? Why add to the 'subject' mentality? In Colorado, it could be a bad guy OCing, but it's probably--too a high level of certainty, not. Why not use the same mindset for cops in KA? And you 'are' violating their rights every time you stop someone and find out he is carrying an unloaded weapon per the Gulag's inane law. An experienced cop should be able to draw a conclusion about someone walking down the street. Why not use that experience to not hassle honest people rather than enforce what you do not have the duty to do, i.e., the e-check?
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
O.K. Guy's,

like I said in my previous post, Please Don't Take This The Wrong Way.

I did not come on here to ruffle any feathers. My purpose of coming on here was to bring up questions I had, so I could better understand the OC movement. Yes it is true, I live and worked for a Law Enforcement Agency in California. Yes it is true that California has some of the most stringent laws when it comes to firearms. Do I think that these laws are right, No I do not. Do I think the rights of gun owners in this state are being infringed upon, yes I do. Do I think that your organization could do something productive to help further the rights of all Californian's when it comes to gun ownership and how these guns are lawfully carried, I most certainly do.

You all have the power as an organization to lobby to get laws in this state and others changed. As individuals sure you can contact your elected officials and voice how you feel about certain laws, but as a organization you have the power to not only voice your concerns, but actually have a lot of muscle and clout to get your beliefs to become law. Again I didn't come on here to argue weather you are right or others are right when it comes to gun issues and how you can legally carry a firearm, but rather point out that while how you currently carry your firearm in California is legal, it is in part not functional because you advertise that the gun is unloaded.

Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded. That is just good common sense and a way for many officers like myself to actually be able to retire, rather than be buried prematurely. Criminals on the other hand, well lets just say that they are willing to take certain risks that you are I are not. True criminals, and I am not talking about the person who makes a mistake in life and gets caught, but true criminals who are the type of people who either don't think about the consequences of their actions, or don't care about the consequences, are far more likely to actually use a firearm then you or I. Bottom line is it is your right to carry an unloaded firearm in California and it may act as a deterrent to a majority of criminals that will choose a "easier target". Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners. While it is true that some if not most of you could load your gun probably quicker than most people could fathom, you still have to take the time to perceive a threat, load the weapon, take aim, and fire the weapon. Basically what I am arguing is that you should have the right to have that weapon all ready loaded!

One of the writers stated that he had not ever heard of the case I spoke of where a person who was legally OC had his firearm stolen from him at gunpoint. What a surprise! Well speaking for the victim of that crime, would you really want it to get out that this happened and worse yet it happened to you! I can tell you this having met the victim, I am positive that he did not want this to go public and was quite embarrassed and yes frightened by the hole event. While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results. While it is public record, my agency fearing other instances of the same event occurring, did not issue a press release. Quite honestly speaking yes I can understand from your point of view, why you think I may be full of crap, but I only mentioned that incident to get you to consider why you carry a unloaded paper weight. Had it not been common knowledge that the firearm was unloaded, I would just about bet that the suspect in the case I spoke of would have moved on to a easier target, such as burglarizing a residence or gun store to get what he sought, which in this case was a firearm. In all sincerity I am not going to release the victims name, provide you with a report number, or tell you the city in which this occurred out of respect for the victim and my superiors who chose to keep this information from the press. I will tell you this, without saying to much, this occurred in San Mateo County after 2005, and their are only 23 agencies in which you will have to check, and if you really want to read about the case, it is public record. If you want to doubt me or call me a lier that is fine to, be ignorant.

I'm not going to debate carrying openly or concealed at this time. In my experience (and only my experience) I have found that I am able to accomplish the goal of protecting myself quite capably by carry the weapon concealed. It has also been my experience that carrying a firearm concealed tends to not ruffle the feathers of the non-gun public out there. If I am able to accomplish my goal of protecting myself and my family without ******* off the rest of the citizenry out there, then I feel all is good in the world. Again this is just my experience.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that I never had any problem with people OC, other than they were walking around town advertising that they have chosen to cary an unloaded firearm in public. My hope is that instead of being part of a possible problem, you could be part of a possible solution. Carrying a loaded firearm weather it be concealed or worn openly will be far more of a deterrent than carrying an unloaded firearm. Lets be clear here I am not advocating breaking the law by caring a loaded firearm, but I am advocating that an armed (and loaded) citizenry can better help them selfs than an unarmed public. No I don't want anyone to go out there and perform law enforcement duties, but if the situation calls for a person to defend him or herself, then I think that they ought to be allowed to do so and not be burdened by laws that only allow them to carry around a threatening paperweight.

So now that I have said what I came here to say, I would like to know what you think. Thanks for taking the time to read the entire post, and providing me with any insight I might not be aware of. - Lawdog

You prefer to carry concealed. The subjects in KA don't have that option. That is why they UOC--not by choice, but by fiat of the ruling class in the Gulag. And the police are the enforcers of the PDR's ruling class. What have/are you personally doing to improve the situation? Don't expect much concurrence on this forum about unconstitutional deprivation of rights for the people living in the land of fruits and nuts by a cop--active or retired. I'm not noted as being exactly pro-cop on this forum, but I welcome your input. Just be prepared to defend it.
 

sraacke

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,214
Location
Saint Gabriel, Louisiana, USA
My gun isn't a paperweight. It is loaded and ready. You treat every gun as if loaded. Good for you. I treat every gun as if it is loaded at all times too and I'm not a cop. As for someone trying to take my gun by force... I carry in a level 3 retention holster, carry backup weapons and have taken retention and self defense training. There are easier and safer ways to get a gun than trying to get mine.
The reason I Open Carry? Zombies. They are real and they walk the streets. Like this crazy as a moonbat b!tch who grabbed a baby right out of the stroller, bashed it against a metal pole and wanted to rip it's arm off and eat it. All in front of the mother and aunt. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...fant_from_stroller_slamming_him__attempt.html
"Detectives said mom Adriana Miranda, 29, was pushing her infant son Alexander in his stroller when Hubbard unbelted the child and grabbed him by the leg.
Witnesses said Hubbard then swung the baby over her head and slammed him into a metal rail of a nearby truck as the mom and the baby's aunt watched in horror, police said."
SNIP
"Hubbard told detectives that she tried to break off the baby's arm so she could eat it, police said."

It's not just the brain fried zombies sleeping on bus stop benches and ******* on the sides of buildings you have to be wary of. Heck, just dropping your kids off at school can turn into a bad day if a couple of mean dogs come your way. Cops don't have to worry about the GFSZ but what if this had been you? -> http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/nopd_officer_shoots_at_attacki.html
"An off-duty New Orleans Police officer shot and possibly injured one of two dogs that attacked him and his family outside of an Old Metairie school this morning, according to the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office."
I Open Carry to have a full sized pistol and other gear readily available should it become necessary and to let those who have ill intent know that it's probably a good idea to move along to eaiser pickings.
 

lilwildrabbit

New member
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Messages
2
Location
south east alabama
My answer to Mr Lawdog

Lawdog as one here in Alabama we are loaded open carry and I do understand your stance about carrying a paperweight but in order to get the laws changed to carry loaded you have to show the public that open carry is the norm and in my opinion i do carry for the rights but also for the reason my wife is handicapped and i have to assist her in and out of the car where someone could come up behind me (easy target) but with me open carrying i do show the criminals that i am armed and will challenge any threat to me or my family and is used as a deterrent more than a show of force as you did when you patrolled the streets. I hope to never have to use it but knowing that if in that situation i can and will (have been in combat) while there are many cutbacks in local goverment i have no other choice but to rely on myself for protection and also as a armed citizen i am bound to assist you if ever needed. I am not into CC because i could not get to my gun as fast when im loading and unloading from my car. Some people are shocked when they see a gun but that is only because of the public not being educated. they cry MWAG so here come the police and ask for ID that is ok they can see my licence and permit no problem. but you also must look at a little town just north of Atlanta Ga. called Kennasaw there the crime rate has dropped over the years because of an ordnance that requires all homes to have a gun and open carry is wished to assist local law enforcement in keeping down crime and it works. I wish i didn't have to carry but in this day and time I do. and yes it's loaded and one in the chamber when i can walk down the street and feel safe I will carry. because for now there are to few LEOs and many criminals. and I do enjoy reading your post and am not angered in any way and hope to read more and become friends online here
 

Malcolm

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
88
Location
Cleveland Ohio
God bless arizona.....uoc...what a crock.

THIS MIGHT BE THE MOST ENTERTAINING POST YET.

To lawdog,

I can respect your the humility in your essay and I thank you for that. LEO gripes don't seem to go over well here, perhaps save it for the locker room. I personally believe that asking someone why they carry is a personal question in nature and is reserved for friends, not strangers. I do agree with you on your feelings about UOC. The mere fact that the unfortunate citizens of kalifornia have to deal with that makes me very sad. (You guys keep up the good fight). To end this I will say that if you feel so strongly about UOC or CC. Here's my question....

WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO HELP CHANGE THE LAWS?
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Lawdog said:
"...Do you think that the mere sight of a gun is going to have a criminal think twice or quake in their shoes?"
No, I suppose that the sight of something capable of violently and painfully ending someone's criminal career by causing their death isn't even half as scary as a bright, shiny badge which could conceivably get someone a few months of jail time or possibly paroled. That is if they are caught after committing a crime, of course.

Visible deterrence is supposed to be half the battle against crime, remember? That's why officers of the law wear readily identifiable uniforms with shiny badges and drive well marked cars.
 
Last edited:

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
No, I suppose that the sight of something capable of violently and painfully ending someone's criminal career by causing their death isn't even half as scary as a bright, shiny badge which could conceivably get someone a few months of jail time or possibly paroled. That is if they are caught after committing a crime, of course.

Visible deterrence is supposed to be half the battle against crime, remember? That's why officers of the law wear readily identifiable uniforms with shiny badges and drive well marked cars.

To add to your answer: YES!! I do! As a matter of fact, I KNOW that criminals fear armed citizens. That fact has been documented well in surveys and in their own words. We also have the Kennesaw Waffle House incident to provide concrete proof that the mere sight of a gun on the person of an intended victim provides protection!

Yeah, there are nuts out there who do their worst, no matter what. But there is no way to stop them anyway, so why enter them into the calculus?
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
First, welcome to the forum, Lawdog! I hope your stay here is more informative than my visit to officer.com.

...every time I have encountered OC citizen I have asked the same question, but never gotten what I thought was a straightforward answer. My question is simple, Why open Carry? I know it is your right, that I get, but besides you wanting to exercise your right, why?

I open carry for much the same reason most law enforcement officers open carry: Deterrence and rapid access.

Does carrying an unloaded firearm in a holster somehow make you feel safer, because it shouldn't.

Did you come here to ask us why we open carry or to tell us why we shouldn't?

I know that you are not looking for a confrontation, but honestly speaking, just advertising that you have a gun is an invitation for someone to either take you on, or make you do something that you possibly should not.

FBI crime statistics do not support your assertions. By the way, your argument has been around for decades, and has never stood up under scrutiny. It appears to be the product of someone kicking around ways to discourage citizens from OCing. For the vast majority of law-abiding citizens going about their lawful behavior, the idea has not merit.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for citizens being able to legally carry a loaded and concealed firearm.

You lost me there, as restricting our rights to "concealed" puts you on the wrong side of the Constitution each and every time.

I think the hole CCW process in most departments is a joke, because they choose not to issue concealed weapons permits to citizens who have valid reasons for having them.

My experience as a resident in six states over a 26-year period strongly indicates otherwise.

Believe me I have looked at this issue from both sides, both as being a officer who would receive calls regarding people who were legally OC...

You do investigate calls about citizens walking their dogs? Using a shovel in their front yards? How about brandishing an ice pick while chopping away at the block of ice they're using for home-made ice cream on a Saturday afternoon? All can be used as deadly weapons, yet I'll bet you haven't received any calls about them, any more than you receive calls about someone driving a Yukon down the highway below the speed limit. Yet the Yukon can be just as deadly as a man with a firearm. More deadly, should the driver be of the Jared or Cho mentality near a crowd.

Its a crying shame that we as americans have to worry about protecting ourselves with deadly force, but that is the world we live it.

As you said, it's the "world" we live in. It's hardly limited to the fact we're Americans.

How are OC going to defend them selves by bringing a pretty paper weight to a gun fight?

Are you saying my firearm, of the same type and caliber used by many law enforcement agencies throughout the U.S. and around the world, is a "paperweight?"

It just seems to me that with all the organization that this movement has, and with all it's members that you could not or would not band together to get some of the laws of the states that do not have a rational concealed weapons permitting changed.

There are forums whose goal is precisely that, and I applaud their efforts. This forum's focus is on Open Carry, not concealed carry, and I applaud its efforts, as well. Some forums focus on eradicating all infringements on the right to keep and bear arms, and I applaud their efforts, too.

I understand that as Police officers we can not be everywhere, and sometimes...

"Sometimes?" During the minutes until you actually arrive, that should read "always."

...we have to depend upon the citizens to protect and defend themselves, But honestly how are you going to protect yourselves or your loved ones with an unloaded firearm?

Who said my firearm is unloaded? I carry 16+1, commonly known as Condition 2 (round chambered, safety off, hammer down). If needed, my response is draw, aim, and fire.

As for those who're unfortunately enough to be in California, they're at a 1-second disadvantage as compared to the rest of us.

Do you think that the mere sight of a gun is going to have a criminal think twice or quake in their shoes?

According to interviews conducted with actual criminals, yes. Not for all criminals, to be sure. But many will avoid targeting an individual whom they know is armed.

I can only speak from my experience, but I am certain that criminals don't care if you have a gun and order them to stop.

That's what the bullets are for.

As a mater of fact in the last couple of years prior to retiring, I found that some criminals are getting hip to the open carry movement.

That's why I train half a day, four times a year.

In the city I worked for, one OC citizen was actually robbed at gunpoint by a suspect who's sole intent was to steal his firearm.

That's why my training includes retention.

After the suspects arrest, he made a comment to the effect that he had seen the OC stuff on T.V. and felt that if he carried his loaded firearm, he could certainly steal more firearms from people who carried them unloaded.

"Suspect's arrest," huh? Apparently, the criminal's approach didn't work very well.

I hated getting calls of citizens who were OC and then have to do a 12031(e) check...

Ok, so you're from California.

...just to determine that they were in fact OC citizens and not some suspect out there waiting for the opportunity to commit a crime.

A 12031(e) check does not determine whether they're OC citizens or potential criminal. Who fed you this line of bull? Desk sergeant? Departmental memo? The only thing the e-check does is determine whether or not the OCer is in full compliance with 12031. If they're not, it could be do to a number of different reasons, including being ignorant of the law or habitually loading before holstering (say, if you come from Colorado).

But remember you pay all officers to be suspicious.

Would you care to make a wager? I don't pay LE to be suspicious. I expect LE to follow and enforce the law. I expect them to use standard practices to stop crimes in progress when able, and find the perpetrators after the fact when they're not.

I neither expect nor desire law enforcement to stereotype, profile, or jump to conclusions, particularly when the individual they're stereotyping, profiling, and about whom they're jumping to conclusions is a law-abiding citizen who has been stereotyped, profiled, and about whom conclusions have been jumped simply because they choose to arm themselves in defense of themselves, friends, family, and property against the real criminals.

I really don't expect (and most certainly despise) law enforcement who categorize law-abiding OCers as potential criminals until proven innocent. Those folks are Constitutionally illiterate and need to go back to high school to learn what it means to be "innocent until proven guilty."

In the purest of forms OC citizens are not criminals...

The "purest of forms?" Boy, this has preconceived notion written all over it, and says you believe most OCers are far from pure. Forget the backstroke. Try backpeddling your way out of this one. In the meantime, try this fact on for size: The vast majority of OCers are not criminals. In fact, exceedingly few, as in way less than 1% of all criminals open carry.

...but all it takes is some smart criminals and then we have a problem. I can show you video after video of criminals either in jail or in prison going over laws and loopholes, techniques and tactics to use the law to their advantage and to lie, cheat, steal and murder their way to where they want to be. No not all criminals are smart, but I hate to say it, if they stay in their business of being criminals long enough, a majority of them learn how to work the system.

Sure they do. As a law enforcement officer, please keep in mind the law itself forbids you to conduct random vehicle stops to attempt to filter known criminals from the law-abiding citizens of our society. It's not for the protection of the criminals, which comprise a very small percentage of our population. It's out of respect for the rights of honest, law-abiding citizens, allowing the vast majority of us who are not criminals to go about our honest, law-abiding lives without being hassled at every turn by a gestapo-like police state asking us for our "papers," some proof that we're actually allowed to breath American air.

Like it or not, that's our system of law. I like it very much! It's called freedom, and it tastes very good. Personally, I think you're trying to sell safety, but no individual is ever safe. Given that 95% of all humans are law-abiding citizens, however, when you allow those 10% of us who're willing to defend ourselves and others to do so uninfringed, you wind up with a situation where the 30 Million armed citizens outnumber 890 Thousand policeman by 30 to 1. However, there's still federal, state, and county/sheriff law enforcement, so let's say, at the most, it's 15 to 1.

Ok, let's go one more and say just 1% of Americans carry. We'd still outnumber all law enforcement by 1.5 to 1. Keep in mind these are the law-abiding citizens, not criminals.

To discount our numbers or our ability to deter crime, or respond to it appropriately when it rears its ugly head would be to make a grave error in judgement. No, we're not law enforcement. When some jerk engaged in road rage this afternoon, I did not chase him down and arrest him at gunpoint. What I did was call 911, report his behavior, the location, and a complete description of the driver and his vehicle.

The other problem that I had with quite a few but not all OC is their attitude towards LEO's.

Has it ever occurred to you that most of our attitudes are formed by observing the comments of people like you? When you post your comments, largely errant and heavily laced with preconceived notions, you do a poor job of conveying that you approach the idea of an armed citizenry with an open mind. Here's another news flash: Armed citizens pre-date law enforcement in this country by a few hundred years.

Weather it is not wanting to submit to a 12031(e) check, or the barbs, jabs, and pokes about "rights" and how as LEO's we violated their rights.... Bottom line I hope OC citizens are carrying not just for show.

As a 20+ year veteran of the armed forces, who's qualified expert every time, on three types (.38, 9mm, M-16), and who's taken additional training in retention, take-down, and law, I can assure you I'm not carrying "just for show." We OCers come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some are more capable than I am. Some are less. I've met many. None of those I've met are carrying "just for show."

What I mean by this is if you are going to carry a firearm, weather it be loaded or unloaded, you better have the intent and skill to use it if your life depends on it.

We agree.

Tying up Police resources by debating weather or not LEO's have the right to conduct 12031(e) checks...

The only ones who would be tying up Police resources in a debate would be the police. You're free to leave at any time.

...and field interviews (not detentions!)...

Yeah, right. If you really believe that, how about leading off with, "Sir, we'd like to conduct a field interview. This is not a detention, as you're free not to answer any questions and may leave at any time." Otherwise, by intent or virtue of positional authority (your uniform) it's a detention.

...what I hope OC citizens stand for, protection of life and liberty.

Hope confirmed.

I guess I will get off my soap box by concluding by saying as OC citizens, you should organize, lobby, protest, hell do what ever it legally takes to get your rights expanded so you can carry concealed or for that mater openly loaded.

Now you're talking! Personally, I thought that's what "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" meant, but apparently, some lawmakers and members of our judicial system either can't read English, or they're willing to subvert our Constitution into something of their own making in violation of their roles in the judiciary (not legislation).

Let me know what you think. I might not have the right answer, but I can at least i admit that while I might not have the right answer, I am sure it is not the only answer to deal with this issue so that your rights are protected, and LEO's can breath just a little easier. Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you. - Lawdog

The best way to protect our rights is to observe those police agencies around the country who do it right. No agency is perfect, but some get very close, while others are far off the mark. All my encounters with the Colorado Springs Police Department have been non-events, simply nods of understanding and mutual respect. I'm not law-enforcement. They are. They're not privately-armed citizen (while on duty). I am. We each have our roles and responsibilities. Mine is to carry and respond appropriately. Theirs is to carry and respond appropriately.

How each of us respond is generally different. They're expected to actively confront criminal behavior, whereas I'll do so only if there's either no avenue of retreat, or for the immediate protection of life and limb of self and others in my immediate vicinity.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
I did not come on here to ruffle any feathers. My purpose of coming on here was to bring up questions I had, so I could better understand the OC movement.

I hope some of my answers proved insightful.

Yes it is true, I live and worked for a Law Enforcement Agency in California. Yes it is true that California has some of the most stringent laws when it comes to firearms. Do I think that these laws are right, No I do not. Do I think the rights of gun owners in this state are being infringed upon, yes I do. Do I think that your organization could do something productive to help further the rights of all Californian's when it comes to gun ownership and how these guns are lawfully carried, I most certainly do.

I agree on all points.

You all have the power as an organization to lobby to get laws in this state and others changed. As individuals sure you can contact your elected officials and voice how you feel about certain laws, but as a organization you have the power to not only voice your concerns, but actually have a lot of muscle and clout to get your beliefs to become law.

It's the position of most of us that our beliefs are already law, that they originate with the Supreme Law of the Land i.e. the U.S. Constitution, specifically our Second Amendment's "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." It's our opinion this very straightforward comment has been twisted around by the fearful and misguided who errantly believe disarming law-abiding citizens magically translates into disarming criminals.

Again I didn't come on here to argue weather you are right or others are right when it comes to gun issues and how you can legally carry a firearm, but rather point out that while how you currently carry your firearm in California is legal, it is in part not functional because you advertise that the gun is unloaded.

Especially after an e-check, when law enforcement lets the OCer go about their business... Nothing communicates "it's unloaded" with more clarity than an LE's seal of approval. So, instead of putting that red dot on our foreheads all the time, how about a smile and a wave? If that's too much, how about just making eye contact and seeing if we act normally or if we run in fear. If in fear, it's probably not a law-abiding OCer.

Now a point in fact, I and quite a few others in law enforcement have been trained to treat every gun as if it were loaded.

I seriously doubt there's a single individual on this forum who is of any different mindset.

...true criminals who are the type of people who either don't think about the consequences of their actions, or don't care about the consequences, are far more likely to actually use a firearm then you or I. Bottom line is it is your right to carry an unloaded firearm in California and it may act as a deterrent to a majority of criminals that will choose a "easier target". Unfortunately with all the media attention this issue has been given, and by your efforts to educate the public about OC, the word is getting out that the Guns are unloaded, and thus only providing only a perceived sense of security by their owners.

However, even most criminals are aware this exists primarily only in California. Elsewhere around the country, when someone asks, "Is it loaded?" the answer is "absolutely."

While it is true that some if not most of you could load your gun probably quicker than most people could fathom, you still have to take the time to perceive a threat, load the weapon, take aim, and fire the weapon. Basically what I am arguing is that you should have the right to have that weapon all ready loaded!

We couldn't agree more!

While I have no obligation to protect the victim of this crime under statute, I and others from my department also did not want this to go public for fear of the exact same thing could happen again with far more tragic results.

Is that why you're mentioning this on a very widely-read public forum, regularly read by various news agencies?

I only mentioned that incident to get you to consider why you carry a unloaded paper weight.

Correction: Why law-abiding California citizens carry an unloaded paper weight.

I am not going to release the victims name, provide you with a report number, or tell you the city in which this occurred out of respect for the victim...

How good of you.

I will tell you this, without saying to much, this occurred in San Mateo County after 2005, and their are only 23 agencies in which you will have to check, and if you really want to read about the case, it is public record.

Yet you lay serious bread crumbs out there for everyone. Not bright.

If you want to doubt me or call me a lier that is fine to, be ignorant.

Based on the evidence you've provided thus far, you're acting like either an LEO wannabe or an LEO who's insecure about his role on the force and who's got something to prove.

I'm not going to debate carrying openly or concealed at this time. In my experience (and only my experience) I have found that I am able to accomplish the goal of protecting myself quite capably by carry the weapon concealed.

So you're concerned about UOC (unarmed open carry), where denounce the disadvantage that people have to spend a couple of seconds mating magazine to firearm, yet you advocate concealed carry where people have to spend a couple of seconds withdrawing from a concealed and potentially entangled location.

Hmm...

It has also been my experience that carrying a firearm concealed tends to not ruffle the feathers of the non-gun public out there.

Sorry, but that argument falls on my deaf ears. While I do indeed CC on occasion out of deference to others or the situation, if, how, and why I carry is my choice, not theirs.

If I am able to accomplish my goal of protecting myself and my family without ******* off the rest of the citizenry out there, then I feel all is good in the world.

When some citizens are ****** off about others who go peacefully about their lives, it's the citizens who're ****** off who have the problem. Let's turn back the hands of time a few decades... When whites are ****** off about blacks attending the same theater they are, it's the whites who're ****** off who have the problem.

We could morph this into any and every prejudicial issue throughout the last 8,000 years of recorded history, and the bottom line remains the same: How people go about their lives is of no concern to others, provided the rights of the others are respected as well. The freedom of being "alarmed" is not a right. Most people are not "alarmed" by the presence of a firearm. I OC'd all afternoon yesterday in Manitou Springs, and precisely 1 (repeat, one) individual of the thousands across whose paths I trod was startled or appeared alarmed.

Then again, this is Colorado, not California. Perhaps you need to retrain your citizenry that firearms are a normal part of the American way of life. If they can't adjust, I hear there are thousands of psychological services in California that would love to help them.

I guess what I am trying to point out is that I never had any problem with people OC, other than they were walking around town advertising that they have chosen to cary an unloaded firearm in public.

Thanks. I've never had any problem with law enforcement officers who OC, other than the three who violated who knows how many laws by inflating my speed just to jack the price of the speeding ticket.

You keep mentioning "unloaded." Please realized this not the California subsection. It's the general part of the forum, and is read and responded to by all members of the forum, including those from other countries.

My hope is that instead of being part of a possible problem...

Ever since the Second Amendment went final in 1791, nearly 220 years ago (and for centuries beforehand), neither OC nor CC has ever been "part of a possible problem." The problem involves the weak-willed/minded individuals in society who prefer being unarmed victims, and absolutely insist! that everyone else within their sphere of influence be made to think likewise.

...you could be part of a possible solution.

We're way ahead of you. Have been since the British banned the carrying of loaded firearms by Colonists back in the mid to late 1700s.

Carrying a loaded firearm weather it be concealed or worn openly will be far more of a deterrent than carrying an unloaded firearm.

Agreed. Fortunately, so have our state's legislators, almost certainly aided by law enforcement who let them know in no uncertain terms if they required UOC, they'd put OCers at risk (undesirable outcome) vs putting criminals on notice (desirable outcome).

Lets be clear here I am not advocating breaking the law by caring a loaded firearm, but I am advocating that an armed (and loaded) citizenry can better help them selfs than an unarmed public.

If you're a former LEO, have you considered becoming an expert witness for the defense? You're in a very good position to set the record straight, in the courts and in the media, that UOC is more than bad, that it's brain-dead, and that California needs to get with the program and allow people to carry armed as does nearly everyone else in our country.

I think that they ought to be allowed to do so and not be burdened by laws...

I think California's laws need to be changed to provide for routine, normal, self-defense.

Thanks for taking the time to read the entire post, and providing me with any insight I might not be aware of. - Lawdog

Glad to provide it. Hope I didn't offend. I simply gave you my honest opinion on your comments. :)
 
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