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New hero

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
If I was the old man I would have shot at their truck too.

(this is not connected to the discussion between you and Skid)

Yeah. You would shoot the Easter Bunny if he presented a danger. :p:)


Seriously, though. We want to be a little thoughtful what we write on the forum. If you're ever in a defensive shooting, your posts here may come back to haunt you.
 

okboomer

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
1,164
Location
Oklahoma, USA
Actually, I believe the old man could make a case of justification for shooting at the fleeing BGs as after they tied him up and robbed him, they went next door to his son's house and returned carrying rifles they were stealing from the son, then opened fire on the old man when he attempted to perform a citizen's arrest (confronted them from the front porch of his house) at which time they opened fire and attempted to flee, thus committing at least 4 more felonies with the reasonable suspicion that they represented an ongoing public danger by a)theft of the guns, b) opening fire, c) fleeing the scene of a crime, d) fleeing at a high speed onto a public roadway.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
...Sorry i dont know how to do that "originally posted by" thing. Can i be informed please?...

All you have to do is hit "Reply with Quote" at the bottom of the post you want to quote. It will bring up the entire post and you can delete the parts you don't want to quote. Hope this helps.

If you delete parts of a post, please indicate that you did so. Some people insert *snip* in place of the deleted parts. I choose to use the widely accepted standard of replacing removed text with ellipses (...) as I did when quoting your post. Some here play fast and loose with the words of others. I trust that you won't.

Nicetameetcha.
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
We have so many assumptions going on here such as where the man lived. From what I a gather, as was stated before, he lived in a rural area. It's not uncommon for family members to build houses on the same property. If they are fleeing across a creek that tells me no houses.

How does this man know they are fleeing for good or planing on coming back? They already threatened to kill etc. They may have been trying to get to the safety of the truck only to return to finish the job.

I like how people sit behind their computer in a comfortable chair condemning someone who was in fear of his life. Making assumptions about the story and back drop with very little evidence because they read it in a book, took a training cores from people who have never experienced this situation, read it here on-line. I'm going to assume the police thought it was justifiable shooting because the man wasn't arrested. I'm going to assume the man did the right thing to let them know not to come back. If one doesn't shoot to kill then why shoot at all? Just like in a cowboy movie he could have just shot the guns out of each of their hands, right; that's the way Matt Dillon did it.

I for one am happy the old man is alive but sad that the three got away and maybe coming to your house or one of your loved ones home. Who knows maybe they learned from this experience and will shoot you or your loved ones first then rob. Instead of condemning the old man for shooting at them you should be worried that they got away. You could be next.

If the LOE's arrest them they may get a few years in jail and maybe knocking on your door, tie you up, rape and kill a loved one (wait that happened already) but please don't shoot at them when they are fleeing because your above all that. PLEASE! and if you were on the football team you wouldn't have... that cost the game.
 
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KYGlockster

Activist Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2010
Messages
1,842
Location
Ashland, KY
I would just like to say who are we to judge this elderly gentlemans actions? Has anyone that has criticized this mans actions ever been in his shoes?? I sure haven't, and I know it's impossible to do exactly what you all say you would do, if you where tied beaten and shot at. It sounds good when your setting at your computer with your coffee and your shined up Roscoe by your side, but do you honestly think when you have severe BAR dumping huge amounts of adrenaline into your blood stream that your gonna be able to stop and think "now what exactly did that law say I can do?". I doubt it! If this happend to me I almost guarantee I'd probably be unaware of what each law says because the effects that a life and death situation have on your body and mind are horrible, however once they started sending lead my way it would be going back at them until I had no more or I regained somewhat of an emotional balance. I often think if I had to draw on someone in public that I'd get low so to shoot up into them and minimize risk of innocence being hit, or to make sure of my backstop, or so on, but truth is if someone has threatened our life with gunfire , we won't be certain of out actions until the ordeal is over. But I do know this, if I was on a jury that was convened to hear this mans trial if there was one, there's no doubt he'd be aquitted, because who am I to say what he should have done when his life was about to end?
 

davist

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
Messages
13
Location
Texas
If you shoot someone because you are livid, that is a crime. If you shoot someone as permitted by your State's self-defense statutes, that is not a crime.

Be rational when you shoot, not emotional.

I certainly would never shoot at anyone out of emotion. I simply stated that i can understand what kind of mindset this man might have had if i was in his shoes. But im not and never have been. All im saying is that i would be in a very defensive state. (ready to do anything necessary). Thanks for all the help on quoting and replying. It helps me make sense of what im trying to say and who im trying to say it to. Also, -not directed at eye95 just a general statement- Yes im sure alot of people wold have sho at the truck too. Im not saying i wouldnt have but where i live i would have been justified chasing them all over the county to try and stop them and retrieve my stolen property. No, noone is gunna be able to stop and contemplate all the local laws of self defense in the midst of a severe Body Alarm Reaction but that is what training is for. Stressful situations offer up many obstacles to the mind and body but with enough training in your area and practice handling stressful situations you can form a very pragmatic solution to making sure you comply with self defense laws. Practice often, extract a sound theory from that practice, re-apply that theory to your practice and you've just formed INTELLIGENT PRACTICE! Pragmatism. Just my thoughts.
 

Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
Despite all the reasons for or against shooting at a fleeing truck the fact remains that he failed to gather enough info to ID them. Had he gotten his camera and taken a video of the truck and license he'd have done the best thing and not risked collateral damage from shooting at a moving vehicle, which did nothing.
 

okboomer

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
1,164
Location
Oklahoma, USA
And had he stepped out on his porch with a camera when the BGs were leaving his son's house where they had just stolen loaded weapons he could very well be dead. We cannot from this distance determine if the BGs rounds missed the old man because he was firing back at them or not.
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
Despite all the reasons for or against shooting at a fleeing truck the fact remains that he failed to gather enough info to ID them. Had he gotten his camera and taken a video of the truck and license he'd have done the best thing and not risked collateral damage from shooting at a moving vehicle, which did nothing.

So there are three things everyone should have with them incase of being a victim

1)firearm, but don't use it because you may go to jail.

2)voice recorder, this will be used to capture names, but hope they don't take that if they kill you.

3) a camera, this should be used first so that officers can look to see who these men are if they haven't killed you and taken that too; but hey, you aren't breaking a law. If one don't have a camera an etch-a-scetch will work too.

Helpful hint: if you are still alive and can see through the blood that maybe running into your eyes you may want to have binoculars or spotting scope so you can see them run as far as posable.

Wow! Now I know why we have gang bangers are roaming our cities. Nothing is worth fighting for these days just sit and observe.
 

frommycolddeadhands

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
448
Location
Knob Noster, MO
Despite all the reasons for or against shooting at a fleeing truck the fact remains that he failed to gather enough info to ID them. Had he gotten his camera and taken a video of the truck and license he'd have done the best thing and not risked collateral damage from shooting at a moving vehicle, which did nothing.

When three BG's are shooting at me, and I have a choice between grabbing a camera or a gun, I'm grabbing the gun. Otherwise they'll just shoot me and take the camera. :p
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
When three BG's are shooting at me, and I have a choice between grabbing a camera or a gun, I'm grabbing the gun. Otherwise they'll just shoot me and take the camera. :p

Oh, they wouldn't have killed him for taking pictures. They had only told him if he looked at them they would kill him after placing a pillow slip over his head.

They only shot at him fleeing the other house because he looked at him. Now, if he had a camera they would have stopped and said cheese; I mean who can't resist saying cheese to a camera? That could be their 15 minutes of fame.
 

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
I think that many on here are looking at this from the vaunted Monday morning perch.

They fired on this man when they saw he was armed. He fired his pistol at them and retreated in to the home. Now, during this lull in the shooting, they took their sweet time getting in their vehicle or made no attempt at all.

When the old man came back out on the porch with his shotgun to see if they had left or not, they then decided to take off. He shot at fleeing felons, felons that were still a risk as they had his son's rifles. Sure, he could have stayed inside, but who does that? You've been shot at, you know they are still there. You do not know if they are planning on coming back in, this time through both doors at once.

If they would have retreated while he was in the house getting the shotgun, they would have been long gone.

I know this because my sister used to live up that holler and that driveway is not long.

Knowing this, I speculate that they were sitting out there debating if they were going to go back in or take off. Knowing how some act out there, they were probably laughing their butt off.

Around here, there have been numerous cases of the elderly being abused by "pillbillies" that rob them of their money and medications and keep doing so week after week. They know when grandma gets her prescriptions and they show up shortly after. This gentleman did not wish to be their victim anymore and he took steps to prevent them from coming back. Who can blame him?

The police never even considered charges against him which should tell you a lot.
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
rscottie,

So you know better then what was in print? What you said it is different than what is in print. (shocking)

See when you sit back in a comfortable chair in the city having never lived in the hullers you can armchair quarterback.

So what you are saying is they fired on him before going to his son's house?

I'm just sorry he missed. If you meet this man shake his hands for me and tell him maybe next time.
 

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
rscottie,

So you know better then what was in print? What you said it is different than what is in print. (shocking)

See when you sit back in a comfortable chair in the city having never lived in the hullers you can armchair quarterback.

So what you are saying is they fired on him before going to his son's house?

I'm just sorry he missed. If you meet this man shake his hands for me and tell him maybe next time.

He had to untie himself and they were robbing his son's house next door at that time. He did not know if they were coming back, next door robbing his son, or what. When he went to look and see, he stepped out on his porch just as the bad guys were walking to their vehicle with a boatload of stolen items from his son's house next door, items including guns. When the bad guys saw him, they opened fire.

He returned fire as he retreated to get a bigger gun. At that point he was in a gun fight with multiple armed men. He got a shotgun and went back to the front door where more gunfire was exchanged. As they decided to retreat this time, he followed them firing as they left at a high rate of speed.

The old man is known in the neighborhood as a nice man that does not bother anyone.

Some of what I've said is speculation based on knowing his yard and driveway layout from when I go to my sisters, what my nephew said, and what the neighbors are saying.

The front of his house is like swiss cheese according to my nephew that lives up the road.

One thing is certain. When he retreated to get the shotgun, they had time to drop the booty and get the hell out of there. They chose to wait and see what he was going to do. When he came back out with superior firepower, they left. It has not been reported or verified, but it seems like the rifles they stole were not loaded and they were only shooting at him with pistols. He did not know that and for all he knew they were going to shoot him with one of the stolen deer rifles as they drove away.

Whatever the total story is, this man is not even being investigated for any improper use of a firearm. His story may or may not be completely accurate, they usually are not when gunfire is involved as adrenaline makes it hard to remember every detail.

This man made life and death decisions in a hail of gunfire after being tied up and in fear for his life. We should extend him the courtesy of not telling him how wrong he was to shoot at them.

Unless they catch these guys, this poor old man is going to be worrying that they will come back for him. That alone is enough to say that shooting at them, even if they were fleeing, was right in his mind at that time. I do wish he had not been so forthcoming with the reporters but they did a 30 minute interview with him and only wrote those damning words after getting him all comfortable talking to him. They were not his friend.

So, for all of you that live in places that put the burden of proof for self-defense on the victim, this is WV and in rural areas, it is shoot first, sort it out later, the sheriff is only 30 minutes away, if even that close.
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
He had to untie himself and they were robbing his son's house next door at that time. He did not know if they were coming back, next door robbing his son, or what. When he went to look and see, he stepped out on his porch just as the bad guys were walking to their vehicle with a boatload of stolen items from his son's house next door, items including guns. When the bad guys saw him, they opened fire.

He returned fire as he retreated to get a bigger gun. At that point he was in a gun fight with multiple armed men. He got a shotgun and went back to the front door where more gunfire was exchanged. As they decided to retreat this time, he followed them firing as they left at a high rate of speed.

The old man is known in the neighborhood as a nice man that does not bother anyone.

Some of what I've said is speculation based on knowing his yard and driveway layout from when I go to my sisters, what my nephew said, and what the neighbors are saying.

The front of his house is like swiss cheese according to my nephew that lives up the road.

One thing is certain. When he retreated to get the shotgun, they had time to drop the booty and get the hell out of there. They chose to wait and see what he was going to do. When he came back out with superior firepower, they left. It has not been reported or verified, but it seems like the rifles they stole were not loaded and they were only shooting at him with pistols. He did not know that and for all he knew they were going to shoot him with one of the stolen deer rifles as they drove away.

Whatever the total story is, this man is not even being investigated for any improper use of a firearm. His story may or may not be completely accurate, they usually are not when gunfire is involved as adrenaline makes it hard to remember every detail.

This man made life and death decisions in a hail of gunfire after being tied up and in fear for his life. We should extend him the courtesy of not telling him how wrong he was to shoot at them.

Unless they catch these guys, this poor old man is going to be worrying that they will come back for him. That alone is enough to say that shooting at them, even if they were fleeing, was right in his mind at that time. I do wish he had not been so forthcoming with the reporters but they did a 30 minute interview with him and only wrote those damning words after getting him all comfortable talking to him. They were not his friend.

So, for all of you that live in places that put the burden of proof for self-defense on the victim, this is WV and in rural areas, it is shoot first, sort it out later, the sheriff is only 30 minutes away, if even that close.

Thank you!
 

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
608
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
Great news one down the others will fall.

They actually caught two of them first and then the last guy.

Their attacks were mostly random as they would drive around and look for easy targets and homes that looked unoccupied. The home invasion that started this thread was someone they knew of. I do not think they were friends but everyone up that holler knew at least one of the bad guys. And people knew their vehicle too. The police were on to them after that shoot out because of people of that holler giving them names.

These guys burglarized/robbed people in WV, KY, and OH. They were caught as the result of the burglary in Chesapeake OH where the homeowner walked in on them and a fight ensued. He was lucky they did not kill him. The police caught two of them that day after a chase and the third guy got away.

They are suspected in more burglaries and the police are comparing notes to see if they can charge them with others.

These guys were probably going to eventually kill someone so it is good they were caught. I say that because they were not just breaking in, they were all three armed and ready for a fight if necessary.

Hopefully they will get long jail terms.
 
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