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Thread: OC encounter with ex marine Policeman - MOVED TO CALIFORNIA

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    Regular Member HeesBonafide's Avatar
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    OC encounter with ex marine Policeman - MOVED TO CALIFORNIA


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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Too many scripts on that page for me to watch the vid... but I'm guessing it's the one where the cop starts off acting like a total jerk, but ends up a puppy dog.

    The power of VIDEO.

    Thus states are passing laws making it illegal to film police officers.

    IMHO this kind of thing is relevant to every state.

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    Good cop give him A donut

    That officer acted in A very curteous and profesional mannor. Seattle should take lessons from him.IMHO
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

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    Hey! I useta live in Oceanside!
    It was a long time ago, tho, I was a kid and dad was stationed at Pendelton.
    Very professional job by the LEO

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Very nice officers out there. Just stopped him because he didnt know who he was. Thats awesome. It's a good thing the officers are so concerned with everyone elses safety to take time out of their busy day to find out. God bless our Law Enforcement Officers for Enforcing the laws. Of course their is an easy answer for the police to not have to make verbal contact, just visual. If they did like gun shows did and had them walk around with their slide tied, they could see that the firearm is unloaded. Problem solved.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    The Officer was very good in this contact, he knew the laws and respected the citizen rights fully.
    He requested his personal information and the citizen refused, there was no issue, no threats of any kind, bravo to both the Citizen and the Officer.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I like how they always start with I need to see some ID because I dont know you. If you are not doing anything wrong, they dont need to know you.

    Refresh, We are not required to show ID, if asked are we required to say our name, address, birthdate, social security #. Alot of newbies lately and we need to make sure they all know, when they are contacted they know what they must give up and what they absolutly do not have to. Refresh them on sterile carry and why. Like most every officer who will disarm you "for their safety while racking the slide and pointing YOUR firearm at YOU" Be sure to let them know that you do not consent to search and illegal siezure of your firearm. Do not call ahead to see if it is ok if you openly carry inside an establishment. And please represent yourself in a professional manner so you dont sound like an asshat on your recording of the incedent. Might explain Ras stops and Terry stops too.
    Last edited by amzbrady; 07-28-2011 at 01:20 AM.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    What I notice first is that an unallied website just up and used the term open carry.

    A few more like that, and the term will become mainstream, if it hasn't already.
    Last edited by Citizen; 07-28-2011 at 02:32 AM.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911er View Post
    That officer acted in A very curteous and profesional mannor. Seattle should take lessons from him.IMHO
    So... grabbing and twisting an innocent persons hand is acting in "a very courteous and professional manner."

    Not where I come from. I'd view that as assault. No RAS + control/submission hold... Yeah, "good cop."

    1* at the expense of human rights.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyS7Qr58wkU 16 seconds in.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-28-2011 at 03:28 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A good guy I am betting (the officer) a little mislead in his thought process. Nothing justified checking him out regardless of the law. And he did push a little for information misquoting the laws a little. And if he is so pro he isn't required to do the e-check. He might be pro guns but not fully on board on someones constitutional rights.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Laws are drastically different, State to State. Neither WA or CA have "Stop and Identify" laws but have widely different regulations on the carry of Firearms.

    PC § 12031(e) – Peace Officer Authority to Examine Firearm
    In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing PC § 12031,
    peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in
    a vehicle while in any public place, or on any public street, or in any prohibited area of an
    unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this
    section is, in itself, probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.
    California Law says that the officer was fully justified in his actions.

    Just another reason I don't ever plan on living in California and do everything within my power to stay out of the State.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, amzbrady, you need a little refreshing as to what info you are required to give and what you aren't. Hint: RCW 7.80.060. It might be a refreshing read for you!
    Yes, but that only covers a justified stop with RAS and the issuance of a civil infraction. I think amzbrady was referring to the majority of encounters told on these boards where there is no RAS or infraction issued. If there is no RAS and the officer demands ID, politely tell him/her to pound sand.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I'd like to hear a LEOs honest take on what the function of the e-check in Ca is. You see a guy walking his dog, obviously no magazine in his HG and you stop your patrol car and do an echeck, all the while trying to get him to give additional personal details.

    WHAT is the reason? Let's say a person took out his mag and forgot, having just gone to the range to remove the one in the chamber. Is there really ANY reason to do this? IMO it is ENTIRELY for hassling OC-ers and making people reluctant to OC. I wonder if they EVER, during their surreptitious running of serial numbers, have a gun come back actually stolen by a criminal.

    Since a person who has to carry unloaded WILL practice slamming a mag in the HG and racking the slide it only promotes a little bit of a cowboy attitude on the part of the OC-er, which isn't bad, and makes it harder to use the HG as a visible deterrent, b/c just 'making it ready' to fire involves 'brandishing'.

    Either this e-check was very well thought out to get other than that which is the supposed reason, or it was horribly conceived to make it impossible for a law-abiding citizen to be protected on the streets. Criminals must laugh at OC-ers rather than run away in Ca.

    /rant
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I was referring to the slight mistake that amzbrady made:


    I don't believe you will find a requirement in the statute to provide a social security #.
    Not only will you not find it, requiring or even requesting Social Security number is a violation of Federal Law. No, I will not provide a cite, use the search and / or google.

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    Thumbs down

    I really don't understand why, recently, people have been reposting this old video in every forum except California...with no indication whatsoever in the OP of where it took place.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    You see a guy walking his dog, obviously no magazine in his HG and you stop your patrol car and do an echeck
    I have always had difficulty knowing that a weapon is unloaded without looking in the chamber. Magazine well empty does not equate to empty chamber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I was referring to the slight mistake that amzbrady made:


    I don't believe you will find a requirement in the statute to provide a social security #.
    Oops, my apologies. I accidentally read that statement from amzbrady as a question. It's a little ambiguous.

    You're absolutely correct about not requiring a ss# though. You're ss# may only be used to track you're contributions to the social security fund. Any other use is illegal.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post

    I don't believe you will find a requirement in the statute to provide a social security #.
    From the Social Security Website:

    The Privacy Act regulates the use of SSNs by government agencies. When a federal, state, or local government agency asks an individual to disclose his or her SSN, the Privacy Act requires the agency to inform the person of the following: the statutory or other authority for requesting the information; whether disclosure is mandatory or voluntary; what uses will be made of the information; and the consequences, if any, of failure to provide the information.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    Oops, my apologies. I accidentally read that statement from amzbrady as a question. It's a little ambiguous.

    You're absolutely correct about not requiring a ss# though. You're ss# may only be used to track you're contributions to the social security fund. Any other use is illegal.
    Not totally true:

    Again from the Social Security Website:

    Specific laws require a person to provide his or her SSN for certain purposes. While we cannot give you a comprehensive list of all situations where an SSN might be required or requested, an SSN is required or requested by the following organizations:

    Internal Revenue Service for tax returns and federal loans;
    Employers for wage and tax reporting purposes;
    Employers enrolled in E-Verify;
    States for the school lunch program;
    Banks for monetary transactions;
    Veterans Administration as a hospital admission number;
    Department of Labor for workers’ compensation;
    Department of Education for Student Loans;
    States to administer any tax, general public assistance, motor vehicle or drivers license law within its jurisdiction;
    States for child support enforcement;
    States for commercial drivers’ licenses;
    States for Food Stamps;
    States for Medicaid;
    States for Unemployment Compensation;
    States for Temporary Assistance to Needy Families; or
    U.S. Treasury for U.S. Savings Bonds
    Lots of "uses" have been authorized since the introduction of the SSN and the "not legal for identification" warning on the cards first showed up. Check the use I emphasized in the above list. If a Driver's License isn't ID, then nothing is.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    I was referring to the slight mistake that amzbrady made:


    I don't believe you will find a requirement in the statute to provide a social security #.
    Federal law, Privacy Act of 1974 and anti-terrorism laws ~ 1980s and '90s, protect your right to refuse to give it out. Unless the cop can quote a state statute requiring it, I would not give it out. Even on the rare circumstance where the state had a statute, I believe it would be a violation of Federal Law. Most states have backed off from requiring--although they may still ask, based on Federal Law. There have been cases where Federal Courts have held the right to refuse to be lawful. The only statutory requirements are military service and paying your taxes. That is it. Even the 4473 makes it optional.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member HeesBonafide's Avatar
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    SS required or not

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    My social security number is not on my Wyoming Driver's License, not on my Washington State ID card, not on my Washington CPL, and not even on my new Active Duty Military ID Card. So again, what statute requires me to provide it to a LEO who is issuing me a citation?
    Our SS# is the last resort of protection of our identity and I will tell you, that if a law enforcement person ever asks me for my SS#, I don't care what the law is (or isn't), I wll not provide it.

    I may go to jail, and am willing to do so; I do NOT provide my SS# to anyone unless it is absolutely necessary.

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    HeesBonaFided:

    You do NOT have to Give Your Social Security Number to Anyone, at any Time, for any Reason!

    EXCEPTION: The United States Federal Privacy Act Law of 1974 Enumerates Exceptions to The aforementioned Statement.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 07-28-2011 at 04:27 PM.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    My social security number is not on my Wyoming Driver's License, not on my Washington State ID card, not on my Washington CPL, and not even on my new Active Duty Military ID Card. So again, what statute requires me to provide it to a LEO who is issuing me a citation?
    Wyoming, meet the Real ID act. Good luck with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act#Document_Verification_Requirements
    Section 37.11(c) of the DHS final rule allows the states to accept several types of documents as proof of social security number: a social security card, a W-2 form, an SSA-1099 form, a non-SSA-1099 form, or a pay stub bearing the applicant's name and SSN. However, the states are not required to verify the validity of these documents directly with their issuers (e.g. with the employer that issued a W-2 form or a pay stub). Instead, the DHS rule requires the states to verify the validity, and its match with the name given, of the social security number itself, via electronically querying the Social Security On-Line Verification (SSOLV) database managed by the Social Security Administration.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-28-2011 at 04:49 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok. So where is the statute that says I have to provide my social security # to a police officer on the street, or to be booked into jail for not giving it to them on the street? I still haven't seen one.
    Not here in Washington State maybe but the ability for the State to do so is there in Federal Law. See again the list I provided from Social Security Administration's site. Just because someone doesn't, doesn't mean they can't.

    BTW, When did the Military do away with SSN's as Service Numbers? Right about the time of the "Birthday Draft Lottery" Service Numbers became SSN's. I remember as recently as last July seeing it used on Military ID while working in a retail store (had to provide Mil. ID for Mil. discount). When did this change??
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Ok. So where is the statute that says I have to provide my social security # to a police officer on the street, or to be booked into jail for not giving it to them on the street? I still haven't seen one.
    Didn't say there was one.

    But if your state license is linked to your SS# in the database, then it's a moot point.

    Your ccw status isn't 'on' your license either, but it's linked to it. Might as well be on there for all intents and purposes.

    AFAIK the Real ID act has not been fully implemented. Coming soon to a state near you, or lose your Federal Highway funding (aka, using your own tax money to extort the State to diminish your rights).
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 07-28-2011 at 09:59 PM.

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