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Thread: Doj faq is here

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    Doj faq is here

    Posted this morning:

    http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/..._questions.pdf

    Answers some questions, raises a few.
    Last edited by LaBomba; 08-01-2011 at 07:56 PM.

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    interesting stance

    The DOJ's position on transportation in the FAQ says that one must carry "out of reach" for long guns and handguns without a license. Something to think about until we get our "licenses" or if someone is thinking about not applying.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Exclamation Good Find. Interesting that it takes over 50 pages FAQ's For 21 pages or so of law..

    Snip for transporting in a vehicle:

    If I do not have a CCW license how do I transport weapons in a vehicle?
    A. Handguns
    The law now allows a person to do the following without a CCW permit:
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in a vehicle without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(b).
    • load a handgun in a vehicle. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(c).
    • operate an all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with a handgun in the operator’s possession. Wis. Stat. § 23.33(3)(a).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a motorboat with the motor running without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(a), (b), (c).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a noncommercial aircraft.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Persons who do not have a CCW license may still not carry weapons concealed. In a vehicle this means that the firearm cannot be hidden or concealed and within reach.

    This STILL doesn't answer the question of what a CONCEALED weapon IS.

    Can we open carry in a vehicle without a license? Seems to me that if we can POSSESS it in a vehicle without a license we can open carry it. What the heck is the difference?!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Snip for transporting in a vehicle:

    If I do not have a CCW license how do I transport weapons in a vehicle?
    A. Handguns
    The law now allows a person to do the following without a CCW permit:
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in a vehicle without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(b).
    • load a handgun in a vehicle. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(c).
    • operate an all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with a handgun in the operator’s possession. Wis. Stat. § 23.33(3)(a).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a motorboat with the motor running without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(a), (b), (c).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a noncommercial aircraft.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Persons who do not have a CCW license may still not carry weapons concealed. In a vehicle this means that the firearm cannot be hidden or concealed and within reach.

    This STILL doesn't answer the question of what a CONCEALED weapon IS.

    Can we open carry in a vehicle without a license? Seems to me that if we can POSSESS it in a vehicle without a license we can open carry it. What the heck is the difference?!

    Red/bolding done by me.

    So the conflict here seems to be between the law allowing a non-licensee the ability to possess a loaded firearm in a vehicle, and the law stating it may not be "hidden or concealed" and with in reach.

    If the law clearly states a non-licensee may possess a loaded firearm in a vehicle, I don't see how a properly holstered firearm carried openly inside the vehicle could be considered hidden or concealed. How else would a reasonable man expect to possess a loaded firearm if not in such a manner?

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    Regular Member jeff niles's Avatar
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    Question oc loaded in car or cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    Snip for transporting in a vehicle:

    If I do not have a CCW license how do I transport weapons in a vehicle?
    A. Handguns
    The law now allows a person to do the following without a CCW permit:
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in a vehicle without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(b).
    • load a handgun in a vehicle. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(c).
    • operate an all-terrain vehicle (ATV) with a handgun in the operator’s possession. Wis. Stat. § 23.33(3)(a).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a motorboat with the motor running without being unloaded or encased. Wis. Stats. § 167.31(2)(a), (b), (c).
    • place, possess, or transport a handgun in or on a noncommercial aircraft.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Persons who do not have a CCW license may still not carry weapons concealed. In a vehicle this means that the firearm cannot be hidden or concealed and within reach.

    This STILL doesn't answer the question of what a CONCEALED weapon IS.

    Can we open carry in a vehicle without a license? Seems to me that if we can POSSESS it in a vehicle without a license we can open carry it. What the heck is the difference?!
    Can we do this now? Jeff Niles

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff niles View Post
    Can we do this now? Jeff Niles
    Vehicle carry is illegal right now (167.31). It must be unloaded and encased.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
    The DOJ's position on transportation in the FAQ says that one must carry "out of reach" for long guns and handguns without a license. Something to think about until we get our "licenses" or if someone is thinking about not applying.
    NO, that is not what is says. It can be 'with in reach' if it is not hidden or concealed.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Persons who do not have a CCW license may still not carry weapons concealed. In a vehicle this means that the firearm cannot be hidden or concealed AND within reach.
    Some think I am crazy, but a Serpa holster is getting mounted on my dash board by 11/1/11 and until I get my CWL.

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    Are there any other limits on firearms in school zones?

    Yes. It remains a felony for any who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of others, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm at a place the person knows is in or on or within 1,000 feet of school grounds unless:

    • On private property not part of school grounds
    • For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone by an individual participating in the program.
    • By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual.

    CCW FAQ 08/01/11
    - 38 -
    • By a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    Wis. Stat. 948.605(3)(a) and (b).

    Starting from bottom of page 37. It is still a Felony to discharge a weapon on public grounds within 1000 feet of school grounds knowingly. It makes no difference if it is justifiable. So you can carry but you can't defend yourself.
    ".......shall not be infringed."

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Exclamation So If You Have To Defend Yourself In A GFSZ...Make Sure To Run To Private Property!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
    Starting from bottom of page 37. It is still a Felony to discharge a weapon on public grounds within 1000 feet of school grounds knowingly. It makes no difference if it is justifiable. So you can carry but you can't defend yourself.

    Yep, run to the other side of the street and get onto someone's front yard on the OTHER side of the sidewalk. Then defend yourself! Right. How absurd this "law" is.


    As for carrying within a vehicle I agree that if you POSSESS it IT can be open carried.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Red face I Agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    Red/bolding done by me.

    So the conflict here seems to be between the law allowing a non-licensee the ability to possess a loaded firearm in a vehicle, and the law stating it may not be "hidden or concealed" and with in reach.

    If the law clearly states a non-licensee may possess a loaded firearm in a vehicle, I don't see how a properly holstered firearm carried openly inside the vehicle could be considered hidden or concealed. How else would a reasonable man expect to possess a loaded firearm if not in such a manner?
    My point was the "law" never states anything about "open carry" in or on a "vehicle". I agree that "possessing" is no different than "open carrying" since you ARE possessing it while you are open carrying.

    Either way we can't do this legally until 1NOV2011.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    It took me an hour, but I did read the whole thing. All in all, a useful document.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    McX
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    there was no mention of cheeseburgers in the entire document, i was not impressed.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon
    Starting from bottom of page 37. It is still a Felony to discharge a weapon on public grounds within 1000 feet of school grounds knowingly. It makes no difference if it is justifiable. So you can carry but you can't defend yourself.
    See pg. 35 of the FAQ (the page is numbered 28, but put 35 in the search box).
    First question: "Are laws that prohibit the discharge of firearms... still valid?"
    Second paragraph in the answer:
    "... such ordinances do not apply if the person's conduct is justified..." 66.0409(3)(b)
    That's on pg. 3 of the law, top of the RH column.

    DOJ should have mentioned that again on the bottom of pg 37 (put 44 in the search box).
    One more example of them screwing up.
    (I've sent Annette a longish email about this already...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    See pg. 35 of the FAQ (the page is numbered 28, but put 35 in the search box).
    First question: "Are laws that prohibit the discharge of firearms... still valid?"
    Second paragraph in the answer:
    "... such ordinances do not apply if the person's conduct is justified..." 66.0409(3)(b)
    That's on pg. 3 of the law, top of the RH column.

    DOJ should have mentioned that again on the bottom of pg 37 (put 44 in the search box).
    One more example of them screwing up.
    (I've sent Annette a longish email about this already...)
    Drakon was referring to the Fedral GFSZ, not a local ordinance. So, what was the point of your post?

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    there was no mention of cheeseburgers in the entire document, i was not impressed.
    No mention of 1911's either...very disturbing.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Drakon was referring to the Fedral GFSZ, not a local ordinance. So, what was the point of your post?
    I agree with your conclusion, though the tone strikes me as perhaps just a wee bit ornery for a response to an innocent error.

    Unless, of course, you're the poor Annette who's being badgered with wrongish longish emails accusing DOJ of incompetence.

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    GFSZA Prohibits Discharging Firearm in Self-Defense; Few exceptions

    Although the GFSZA allows a citizen to discharge a firearm on private property, it prohibits discharge on public property in the Gun Free Zones by anyone except on-duty law enforcement and school security. A carry permit never exempts an individual from the GFSZA discharge restrictions, even in the State that physically issued it.
    I stole this from wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990


    I believe that is what the WI DOJ is making clear. So it isn't a typo or a mistake. The DOJ is simply stating that it is a Felony regardless of whether firing your weapon is justified or not. So carry your weapon in a school zone but don't ever fire it because if you do you quite possibly could go to jail.
    ".......shall not be infringed."

  18. #18
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
    I stole this from wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990


    I believe that is what the WI DOJ is making clear. So it isn't a typo or a mistake. The DOJ is simply stating that it is a Felony regardless of whether firing your weapon is justified or not. So carry your weapon in a school zone but don't ever fire it because if you do you quite possibly could go to jail.
    this is alarming. it wont be long before the criminals discover and exploit this loophole! We fear violating the law, they dont!

    * added on edit; i do wonder what part of the DOJ site will address where and how to file complaints regarding Police that use excessive force against a permit holder.
    Last edited by McX; 08-02-2011 at 10:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    NO, that is not what is says. It can be 'with in reach' if it is not hidden or concealed.



    Some think I am crazy, but a Serpa holster is getting mounted on my dash board by 11/1/11 and until I get my CWL.
    You are correct, I was paraphrasing, and even though I support your position I'm sure I would not want to be the defendant in the case that tests out the theory that a handgun on the dash is in the open.

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    ouch

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
    I stole this from wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Fre...es_Act_of_1990


    I believe that is what the WI DOJ is making clear. So it isn't a typo or a mistake. The DOJ is simply stating that it is a Felony regardless of whether firing your weapon is justified or not .So carry your weapon in a school zone but don't ever fire it because if you do you quite possibly could go to jail.
    so those of you who live in Milwaukee would be hard pressed to defend yourself? time to write our reps and get an amendment to this if this is as they would enforce it. heh ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Packfanatic View Post
    so those of you who live in Milwaukee would be hard pressed to defend yourself? time to write our reps and get an amendment to this if this is as they would enforce it. heh ?
    Nate Nelson has been working on improvements to Act 35 for the new NRA lobbbyist to work on. I can't rememeber what is name is. He stood by Darrin LaSorte at the Wausua signing.

    Everyone, find Nate Nelson on Facebook at let him know about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uziel Gal View Post
    You are correct, I was paraphrasing, and even though I support your position I'm sure I would not want to be the defendant in the case that tests out the theory that a handgun on the dash is in the open.
    September 30, I am taking out one of the taillights and repllacing with a bulb where only the brake lights work. I have already tested having my gun case on the dash the last time my tail light was out and that went fine.

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    Interesting that the DoJ will only certify law enforcement personnel as instructors. That means any civilian giving instruction must be certified by a state or national organization. There is no way for an independent civilian to become certified by the DoJ to give firearm training.
    Last edited by Captain Nemo; 08-02-2011 at 07:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nemo View Post
    Interesting that the DoJ will only certify law enforcement personnel as instructors. That means any civilian giving instruction must be certified by a state or national organization. There is no way for an independent civilian to become certified by the DoJ to give firearm training.
    The NRA has to have their pound of flesh.
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Are there any other limits on firearms in school zones?

    Yes. It remains a felony for any who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of others, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm at a place the person knows is in or on or within 1,000 feet of school grounds unless:

    • On private property not part of school grounds
    • For use in a program approved by a school in the school zone by an individual participating in the program.
    • By an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual.

    CCW FAQ 08/01/11
    - 38 -
    • By a law enforcement officer or state certified commission warden acting in his or her official capacity.
    Wis. Stat. 948.605(3)(a) and (b).





    Hmmm...'Discharge or attempt to discharge'...any thoughts on what 'attempt to discharge' might mean?

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