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Thread: Tom Sipin's traning course in West Allis, WI

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    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Tom Sipin's training course in West Allis, WI

    *edit* Title should read "Tom Sipin's training course in West Allis, WI"

    The following is a report about the concealed carry and firearms training course I took at Tom Sipin’s Four Winds Martial Arts Dojo. It's long, but worth the read.

    I have gotten a lot of requests for advice on where to go for firearms training lately. Who can offer the best price? Who has the best information provided in their class? Who offers real world advice and training? Because of this I started to ask around for peoples experience with local trainers. Sure, I have had training but none of it really “wowed” me. Then one of the guys on Wisconsin Carry Inc’s facebook page replied that I should check out Tom Sipin in West Allis. If you are this guy, please contact me so I can give due credit. This seemed like a promising lead and the fact that he’s local was even better.

    I called Tom to get some information and it was immediately clear that he understood what I was looking for. I need a trainer that has real experience, not just an impressive resume. I have long believed that a text book education is the study of doers. I want an instructor that IS a doer. I need one that has real world experience using the techniques that he teaches, not one that is just the student of lecture instruction. Tom Sipin is that man!

    Tom Sipin has been actively involved in martial arts for over 50 years, which is the foundation that his other skill sets were built up from. He currently holds a 9th degree black belt in the Filipino system of Doce Pares Eskrima. He is a 27-year police veteran (ret.), with a comprehensive background in firearms and tactical training. He served for 6 years as a SWAT Unit Officer and 5 years as a full time Trainer. He has been training Police and Security officers for 27 years and is a state and nationally certified instructor. He has a real world experience resume!

    The course I attended was scheduled from 9:30am to 5pm on Sunday. Once the class started Tom Sipin went over some of his qualifications to teach the class, he was reassuring his students that his advice is worth listening to. The lecture portion of his class covered things like liability control, deadly force requirement, threat assessment, levels of force, and legal definitions of specific terms like “great bodily harm”. When discussing these topics, he would then make reference to the EXACT law that addresses the particular topic. This is especially important because the first thing you should know when dealing with the use of force is the rules! Not only should you know the rules, but you should know what will and will not protect you legally. Most of the people reading this report already know the real fight starts AFTER the use of force when you get to court, the information taught in this section of the course goes father in depth then any other course I have taken. It has given me a better understanding of the rules and more confidence in my ability to asses a situation from a legal standpoint.

    The lecture portion of the course last about 3 hours, but I got more information in that 3 hours then I could have imagined. After the lecture we had lunch and watched a couple of short videos that were designed to help the student recognize that the threat may not stop by just pulling a trigger one time. It may involve physical violence and multiple shots to stop the threat. Even after that the threat may still keep coming! You may be hurt severely in a deadly attack situation, so don’t rely solely on the gun to stop the threat. Be prepared to use your brain (the weapon) to access and implement your tools (arms, legs, hands, etc…).

    After lunch we went over some basic firearms safety to make sure everyone was on the same page, and then we did quite a bit of physical training with our firearms. Proper grip, stages of a draw, simulated draw, what draw to use and when, etc… I have to say that I learned quite a bit here! I had the ideas right, but the execution of those ideas was not. With a few tweaks from Tom Sipin, my grip is better, my draw is better and I am now unlearning some bad habits I have picked up over the years. He not only corrected my flaws but, he also explained why they were wrong and why his corrections were better. From a teaching aspect I was very impressed with his ability to teach in a way that emphasized the importance of his teaching but also left no room for doubt in what he was teaching. I have walked away from instructors in the past thinking “I don’t know about that…” because they did not explain all the aspects of what and why.

    Next we practiced the draw with stuffed dummies. Now keep in mind I have been in a scuffle or two in my life and I thought the dummies were a little silly… until we used them. Its one thing to role play in your head about getting away from the threat, but its a whole different thing to play it out physically. Hit the threat while communicating verbally, while backing up, while drawing, while acquiring your target, continuing to back up, while not losing your target, etc… This part taught that I need to practice more if I expect to be able to implement the use of force effectively and safely for those around me.

    Next we worked on acquiring the threat from the ground. What if you try to stop the threat physically and you get knocked down? I know, it sounds silly until you try it. We worked on drawing while on our backs, reloading on our backs, getting up while keeping our firearms trained on the threat, etc… I’ll tell you right now, I picked up a lot of good useable information on these last two parts. I found significant flaws in my ideas as they were played out in practice application.

    The last thing we did was put everything together and used airsoft guns to implement what we were taught. I know, I can hear you laughing. I thought it was funny too! “Come on, really? Airsoft?! Like the kids use that wish they had real guns?” Much like my other predetermined notions about the things he was covering; I was quickly converted into a believer. Airsoft is just as accurate as a real gun within the range that we are fighting. You can practice your draw-acquire target-shoot skills while completely removing the danger of a negligent discharge and a trip to the hospital. Besides, the only range I have ever been to that you can practice drawing and shooting are the ones up north without a range officer. Any of the ranges in the West Allis area do not allow drawing for liability reasons. I am so convinced that I will be getting an airsoft replica of my carry firearm to practice with. This was a great idea and it’s cheap too! I am guessing that I will be spending about $125 on everything, pistol, CO2, bullets, etc… Considering I drop $50 on the range every time I go ($15 range fee and $35 worth of reloads) this will pay for itself after the third time I use it.

    It is clear to me that Tom Sipins years of real life experience has given him the tools to teach a course that is more in-depth than any other I have taken. I see a lot of similarities to the Massad Ayoob videos I have seen. When I pointed that out to him, he said “When you have been doing this as long as we, you tend to come to the same conclusions.”

    In closing I will say that Tom Sipin is the real deal. I cut this report down from 4 pages to 2 pages so that people would actually read it. I have only scratched the surface of what you can expect when taking Tom Sipin’s course. I give him my full endorsement and will be continuing my education and training with him. If you are interested in taking his class and seeing for yourself, you can contact him at:

    Four Winds Martial Arts
    2038 South 114 St (114th & Rogers)
    West Allis, WI 53227
    414-541-3656
    fwma@wi.rr.com
    Last edited by cleveland; 08-01-2011 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Spelling
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    Impressed

    I am very impressed with this review. It reminds me of when I bought my 2005 Harley Touring Bagger.. ( the big bike). My sales guy recommended I take the motorcycle safety class and I kind of laughed out loud and he told me, I know you have been riding for 35 years but.. this is a different class of bike to handle. take the class. Well, it was free so what the heck! I was on a little ( and i mean little) 250 cc bike that Icould literally pick up. As the class progressed the instructiors pointed out a couple ( maybe more I will not admit to) bad habits I had picked up and when I was all done I learned that I did not know it all about riding a motorcycle. I am sure the same thing will happen here. I am a Viet Nam era vet and I am not going to rely on my honorable discharge DD-214 for obtain a permit to carry concealed
    (damn! i HATE paying for a RIGHT!!) and I will attend a class and it sounds to me West Allis is the destination of choice. I have a feeling he may teach an old dawg new tricks. Thank you for this review. and BTWE.. you make really great holsters! as soon as I budget in some funds I am ordering one of your holsters as well. I will take me about 2 months to save money to afford that holster.

    Carry On!
    Last edited by Packfanatic; 08-01-2011 at 07:15 PM.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    In the Green Bay - North Eastern Wisconsin Area
    AACFI Wisconsin Concealed carry, Certification Course

    Given by: Henry Rahr - Green Bay's only Certified AACFI Instructor ( American Association of Certified Firearms Instructors )

    to be held at the - Hotel Sierra 333 Main street Green Bay, WI 54301

    in the > Champion's Room

    On Tuesday , August 2nd

    from: 5:30 pm - 10:00 pm

    Class Size, 50 student's Maximum - Reservations are recommended

    COST: $ 125.00 Cash or Check , includes class materials, etc & soft drinks

    Walkin's welcome but you can also Reserve a spot by calling Mr. Henry Rahr @ 920-494-3991 or email at > jrrhome@new.rr.com
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  4. #4
    Regular Member davegran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    In the Green Bay - North Eastern Wisconsin Area
    AACFI Wisconsin Concealed carry, Certification Course

    ....
    Would it kill you to start your own thread instead of trying to highjack Cleveland's?
    Dave
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    Fight for "Stand Your Ground " legislation!

    WI DA Gerald R. Fox:
    "These so-called 'public safety' laws only put decent law-abiding citizens at a dangerous disadvantage when it comes to their personal safety, and I for one am glad that this decades-long era of defective thinking on gun issues is over..."

    Remember: Don't make old People mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    My intent was not to hi-Jack anyone's threads...BUT your saying we should CLUTTER up the Forum with 75 different threads about 75 various trainers ?? DO You know how many times my threads have been Hi-Jacked ???? a few by even your opinionated REAR END........ SO>> How about ONE thread about all the various trainers for forum members information only..with NO comments Allowed <<< yeah, that would work..SOMEONE with a chip on their should would CRY about Gene German & AACFI...In fact MY THREAD WAS HI-JACKED NOT TOO LONG AGO with that exact same BS..

    or better yet. we start a new rule..NO replying to anyones threads..then No ones thread would EVER get hi-jacked......Freeking Cry babies named DAVE...
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 08-01-2011 at 08:54 PM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  6. #6
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Sounds like very valuable training.
    Couplea questions:

    What does it cost?
    Are there prerequisites, or does he take people who have never handled a gun before?
    How long did you wait to get into a class?

  7. #7
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davegran View Post
    Would it kill you to start your own thread instead of trying to highjack Cleveland's?
    Thanks Dave, I appreciate to stepping forward and calling him on the hijack. I think that he was just trying to expand his exposure and I don't have a problem with it. Besides, it's clear that the class he is promoting is nothing like the one Tom Sipin is offering and it's in another part of the state. I think it would have been out of place if they were near each other, but they are not so I'd say no harm no foul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    My intent was not to hi-Jack anyone's threads...BUT your saying we should CLUTTER up the Forum with 75 different threads about 75 various trainers ?? DO You know how many times my threads have been Hi-Jacked ???? a few by even your opinionated REAR END........ SO>> How about ONE thread about all the various trainers for forum members information only..with NO comments Allowed <<< yeah, that would work..SOMEONE with a chip on their should would CRY about Gene German & AACFI...In fact MY THREAD WAS HI-JACKED NOT TOO LONG AGO with that exact same BS..

    or better yet. we start a new rule..NO replying to anyones threads..then No ones thread would EVER get hi-jacked......Freeking Cry babies named DAVE...
    Dave never said that you should do anything, he asked you a question. Saying that others have hijacked you and that makes it right for you to hijack others is the same form of thinking sexual predators use when they explain why they raped someone.

    Frankly speaking I think your reply is rather childish and I would hope that Dave would not bother to reply as is would drag him down to your level where you would clearly beat him with experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Sounds like very valuable training.
    Couplea questions:

    What does it cost?
    Are there prerequisites, or does he take people who have never handled a gun before?
    How long did you wait to get into a class?
    The class was $150 and worth every penny! I have finally heard what C-Jack has been saying all this time! The true value of a class is the training and information you walk away with, not the paperwork you receive. This is not a class you take to get your CCW, although it certainly will qualify for that, it's far beyond that.

    He also offers discounts to people that come back for his live fire training courses. Since he is set up to train cops (we saw a few "shoot/don't shoot" videos that he uses for police training) he also offers ongoing continuing education and “Hardened Target” Personal Protection courses. I was really amazed to learn how little I really know.

    The class did not have a prerequisite, but you were expected to show up with a few things. Pistols, holsters, decent belt, notebook, etc... One of the students seemed rather green and I am sure he did not take as much away from the class as I did. I bet I could take the same class again and still walk away with more information then I learned the first time. Be prepared to take notes so that you can go back over what he said later.

    I was able to get in right away because I had spoken to him earlier and asked for him to get me into the next open class. Your best bet is to join him on facebook and post up. He should be able to tell you the next time he has a class scheduled. If I recall correctly, he may have one this coming weekend.

    http://www.facebook.com/groups/13987502027/?ap=1
    Last edited by cleveland; 08-02-2011 at 10:46 AM.
    Cleveland's Holsters, LLC https://clevelandsholsters.com/

    "When your life depends on it, you can depend on Cleveland's Holsters!"

    Made in Wisconsin with 100% American manufactured materials.

    We give away a free holster every month on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cleve...19323708154588

  8. #8
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Tom Sipin just posted on facebook that he is offering a class this Sunday. I am so confident that you will absolutely love this course that I will give a free holster to any opencarry member that takes it this Sunday! The fine print to that would be that you must be a current opencarry member with at least 10 posts as of right now. Really, check him out, you wont be disappointed!
    Cleveland's Holsters, LLC https://clevelandsholsters.com/

    "When your life depends on it, you can depend on Cleveland's Holsters!"

    Made in Wisconsin with 100% American manufactured materials.

    We give away a free holster every month on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cleve...19323708154588

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Cleveland's response >>> Dave never said that you should do anything, he asked you a question. Saying that others have hijacked you and that makes it right for you to hijack others is the same form of thinking sexual predators use when they explain why they raped someone.

    Frankly speaking I think your reply is rather childish and I would hope that Dave would not bother to reply as is would drag him down to your level where you would clearly beat him with experience.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Yup, he asked a VERY SARCASTIC QUESTION..(( with the little angry guy )) AND he was also telling everyone to start a NEW thread EVERY TIME we wanted to talk about different CCW trainers....... now, your comparison to what I said..is really VERY OVER THE TOP & you call me childish ??.. LOL No, I did not say my being hi-jacked in the past made it all right for me to do it .....I DID say PEOPLE who do HI-JACK have NO freeking right to call others on it like your good buddy Dave did. What ever, I guess people that give away Prizes on this forum are now in the ELITE click & are allowed to advertise for CCW trainers & not get hammered for it..as long as it's not an AACFI class with Gene German at the helm..Right !!! Some people are such hypocrites.

    You know Clev if your going to use this forum to advertise your Holster Business...try PAYING FOR IT like the other Holster company is instead of advertising it in your signature line for FREE...a Moral & ethical person would see that as THEFT..
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 08-02-2011 at 11:41 AM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  10. #10
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Thank you, your post was very entertaining and I needed the laugh. Best wishes!
    Cleveland's Holsters, LLC https://clevelandsholsters.com/

    "When your life depends on it, you can depend on Cleveland's Holsters!"

    Made in Wisconsin with 100% American manufactured materials.

    We give away a free holster every month on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cleve...19323708154588

  11. #11
    Regular Member Big River Leather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post

    You know Clev if your going to use this forum to advertise your Holster Business...try PAYING FOR IT like the other Holster company is instead of advertising it in your signature line for FREE...a Moral & ethical person would see that as THEFT..

    Pffftt...

    So should I be removing my signature as well, or, since I haven't crossed you yet is it ok for me to keep it the way it is until we butt heads?

    I kept hitting refresh and I couldn't ever get your advertisement banner to pop up for your training Glock34.
    Last edited by Big River Leather; 08-04-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleveland View Post
    The class was $150 and worth every penny!
    Wow! That is a deal and only $25 more than sitting in a hotel conference room and learning only book knowledge like the class Glock keeps pushing.

  13. #13
    Regular Member cleveland's Avatar
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    Thanks guys!

    Hope that some of you were able to take advantage of his class, I have been on vacation and haven't spoken to him yet.
    Cleveland's Holsters, LLC https://clevelandsholsters.com/

    "When your life depends on it, you can depend on Cleveland's Holsters!"

    Made in Wisconsin with 100% American manufactured materials.

    We give away a free holster every month on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cleve...19323708154588

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