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Thread: This Days Inn deserves to be congratulated for allowing an employee to carry!

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    This Days Inn deserves to be congratulated for allowing an employee to carry!

    Thankfully HER employer allowed her to carry a concealed pistol. Although I think I would carry one a little larger, it shows that a having a smaller caliber gun on you is better than having a larger caliber one at home.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...aled-handguns/
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-01-2011 at 08:00 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Glad that she is safe and that she was able to defend herself. A bigger caliber might have been better but what she had worked.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Glad that she is safe and that she was able to defend herself. A bigger caliber might have been better but what she had worked.
    How do you do better than killing the perp?

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    How do you do better than killing the perp?
    I didn't mean it in that way. I was responding to the OP when he said he would carry a larger caliber. Like I said, the .22 worked.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  5. #5
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    .22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

    I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

    Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
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    Great reading.....I love it when a story has a happy ending.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    .22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

    I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

    Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
    I carry a naa 22mag as backup and it works for me. I have no issue with the .22, just if there was no question that my employer allowed me to carry, I'd carry my .40... which for some here is still too small of a caliber.
    BTW Although people can and do die from a .22, there often is a large amount of time between being shot and dying. LOL
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-01-2011 at 09:07 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    I would carry a .22 any time over a .25 or .32.

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    Campaign Veteran RabbiVJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    .22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

    I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

    Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
    .22s are no joke...when I went to lansing last year to MPE to get my Gen 3 G23, the guy that was helping me was carrying a walther p22. He was saying that they will go thru body armor...tho as much i wanted to believe him...it could be possible due to the high velocity...
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    It's too bad she had to be victimized once before the employer allowed her to carry on the job.


    "This victim received permission from her employer to carry on the job after being “victimized in one of two recent robberies at the same Days Inn.”

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiVJ View Post
    .22s are no joke...when I went to lansing last year to MPE to get my Gen 3 G23, the guy that was helping me was carrying a walther p22. He was saying that they will go thru body armor...tho as much i wanted to believe him...it could be possible due to the high velocity...
    It has more to do with the small diam. Without plates some kevlar weaves cannot stop small projectiles.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The problem with snubbie .22's and Baby Brownings is not the width of the round, it's the weight and the relatively slow speed. A while back I spent a ridiculous amount of time researching the smallest size you could go and still reasonably hope to have a chance at incapacitating an attacker with good shot placement, and what I found is that when you go lower than .32 ACP in a stubbie barreled hide out gun, or when you load a short barreled .32 with expanding rounds, you immediately run the risk of not penetrating a human skull, instead leaving yourself with essentially neck shots as the only reliable option for fairly rapid incapacitation.

    The context in which .22 and .25 become formidable self defense rounds is when you have a longer barrel and get twice the velocity. When you cut that velocity in half or so, you very quickly loose sufficient penetration capabilities. And let's face it, if you can get away with a longer barrel you shouldn't be carrying a caliber under .30. You realistically want nothing less than 70 grains and ball ammo at velocities under 1000 fps in calibers smaller than .35.

    Guns in the Seecamp family, as well as double barrel derringers, easily outdo the performance of the .22/.25's with very nearly no loss in concealability. These are my suggestion to folks seeking an "I'm not carrying" gun with concealability taking importance over capacity and power.
    Last edited by Michigander; 08-03-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I didn't mean it in that way. I was responding to the OP when he said he would carry a larger caliber. Like I said, the .22 worked.

    The important thing to keep in mind, which the story badly neglected, is how quickly did he die? Says she shot him in the chest. Unless by strange luck she clipped his spine, I would be very surprised if he didn't have time and ability to kill her if he'd devoted his last dying breaths to killing her.

    For a defender, there is a very extremely important difference between incapacitating an attacker instantly, and killing an attacker, but only after 2 hours of surgery fail to save his life after he gets shot.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I would carry a .22 any time over a .25 or .32.
    I agree .25 is pretty weak, even compared to a .22lr, but with SOME .32 self defense rounds (Winchester "Silvertip"??), I'd consider a .32 in the right setup.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post

    The context in which .22 and .25 become formidable self defense rounds is when you have a longer barrel and get twice the velocity.
    Or, perhaps sticking the barrel in the person's ear canal... that would probably end the "fight" in the person pretty well.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

    About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

    That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
    Last edited by Michigander; 08-03-2011 at 10:41 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

    About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

    That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
    there are plenty of pressure points on the body, the adam's apple or anything near the throat/windpipe/artery areas will suffice. the USMC taught us to hit at all the places considered "off limits" in "polite" fighting. "grab, twist, pull, grab"... i'll let your imaginations fill in the blanks. if you want to hit, why not hit somewhere soft? less damage to your hand.
    ETA, my BUG is a keltec .380, conceals very nicely.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 08-04-2011 at 12:08 AM.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The ear canal shot would work, but an easier and just as combat effective option is to clap a persons ears with your bare hands. This will mess someone up very dramatically.

    About the ammo, Silvertips are a low velocity HP round, well known today mostly because it was the only HP round when the Seecamp was developed, and continues to this day to be among the suggested ammo for Seecamps (stupid, if you ask me), though the Silvertips design has been changed since the 80's and Seecamp now often suggests Gold Dots as the superior round. The Silvertips may work, but if they expand much they may not. Again, you very desperately need penetration if you are carrying a .32, and ball ammo is the way to go. Euro FMJ's and Buffalo Bore are probably about as good as it gets for commercial .32 carry ammo.

    That's not to say that with a 4" or longer barrel that .32 HP's wouldn't work respectably, but again, at that point it'd be time to carry a better caliber.
    I've used my .22lr, not my .22mag, pistol to dispatch some pretty nasty varmints while trapping; one shot in the ear tends to save the fur. I am sure there are many areas equally, or even better, on a human.

    Not even considering a .32 in the future so I have no idea regarding ammo... I was just taking a very wild guess and wasn't even sure they made silvertips in .32
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    SOME .32 self defense rounds (Winchester "Silvertip"??).
    Save your money on Silvertips in .32 acp. When I bought my first .32 the counter guy recommended Silvertips so I bought a box. When I tested them shooting through fabric into water the majority of the box failed to expand...could have bought FMJ for half the price and got the same performance.

    Recently Corbon released their very good DPX round in .32 acp. This has some promise. When I tested them using the same protocol as above they all expanded and penetrated nearly as far as the .380 DPX that I've tested.

    All that being said I normally load FMJ or I load my .32 with one DPX in the chamber, one as the top round of the mag, and rest FMJ to avoid a problem with .32 acp hollow point rounds called rimlock....which is a nasty firing stoppage that is not easily cleared.

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  20. #20
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I've used my .22lr, not my .22mag, pistol to dispatch some pretty nasty varmints while trapping; one shot in the ear tends to save the fur. I am sure there are many areas equally, or even better, on a human.
    No question about that. The lowly 20 somethings will kill a person as dead as anything with proper shot placement. The balance that must be measured however is whether or not a knife, club, or even hand to hand techniques can be considered more effective for a given person in a given situations. An eye, neck, ear or spine shot may very well be harder to score than 3 fast stabs from a knife, or even just an eye gouge or kick to the knee. Never mind the serious capabilities of eye irritants.

    The fact that the micro compact 20 somethings work is not at all lost on me, and in fact I'd stand up for their use by someone who is legitimately skilled and knowledgeable, and for whatever reason really wants to carry it. But it's still just about universally not going to work as well as many different weapons of a similar size.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Save your money on Silvertips in .32 acp. When I bought my first .32 the counter guy recommended Silvertips so I bought a box. When I tested them shooting through fabric into water the majority of the box failed to expand...could have bought FMJ for half the price and got the same performance.
    This is actually thought by some to be a saving grace of the silvertip .32 round. In a longer barreled gun such as a 1908 pocket browning, they are much more likely expand than from a Seecamp or Kel Tec, where they will more likely penetrate as far as possible since they didn't have sufficient FPS to expand.
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    Regular Member Sail Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malignity View Post
    .22's are dangerous rounds and very under appreciated in a lot of respects. It's not the first choice I'd carry, but I'd much rather grab a .22 than say, a baseball bat.

    I worked in the ER of St. John Main (Moross and Mack in Detroit) for almost 3 years. We got gunshot wound victims on nearly a daily basis. Only two were ever shot with 22's when I was there but both died. One was shot in the eye, and it ricocheted off the back of his skull and swiss cheesed his brain. The other was shot in the collar bone, and it bounced off his collar bone, went through his lung, aorta, liver, kidney, and exited out near his buttock on the opposite side of his body.

    Again, not my first choice of carry, but if it's all I had, you better believe it's got the potential to get the job done.
    I've transported more then a few patients into St John Main, always impressed with the ED staff. Currently work for the most part in Troy on a non-transport unit. One of the Troy LEO's I work with used to work DPD (as many of them did) and mentioned years back he had a partner killed with a .22. Got his femoral and he bled out before they could get him to an ER.

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