Utah CC Permit---Milwaukee---Serb Hall---$60

Deadscott · Aug 3, 2011

In another thread here http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?93352-Utah-Permit-Class-in-S.E.-WI.-for-60.00 there was a class offered for $60. When I looked I could only find classes in the Milwaukee area for $100. So I contacted ACT, the company mentioned in the other thread. To my surprise they offer another class in Milwaukee for $60.

Location: American Serb Memorial Hall
5101 West Oklahoma Ave.
Milwaukee, WI. 53219
President’s Lounge

Date: August 19, 2011

Time: 5:30-9:30pm

Course Description: Armed Citizen Training Group, LLC is your exclusive source for your Concealed and Carry Permit training. The CCW training class takes 4 hours. Topics covered: Firearms Safety, Function, Ammunition, and Legal Aspects and Considerations for carrying a firearm. All students receive Certificate of Training for WI CCW permit. Additionally, you will receive a stamped application for Utah Non-resident CFP permit, recognized in over 30 states. Our curriculum meets and exceeds State of Wisconsin training requirements. Course Fee: $60.00

Enroll online at our secure registration page at https://www.armedcitizentraining.us/registration.htm or call toll free (888)240-3805 ext. 1

Respectfully,
ACT Group, LLC Instructor Staff
1(888)240-3805 ext. 2
instructors@armedcitizentraining.us
http://www.armedcitizentraining.us
http://www.armedcitizentrng.com

As stated elsewhere on this forum, your Utah application must be sent in before Nov. 1st when our law takes affect. After that you will need our Wisconsin permit first to qualify for the Utah permit.

protias · Aug 3, 2011

Good to know it will only cost us $37+$13 for a permit...oh wait.

Sorry, I'm still bitter about it.

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

Report on ACT class held last night...

Update -Utah Permit Class in S.E. WI. for $60.00

In another thread I posted information about the Utah Permit Class in S.E. WI. for $60.00 I also contacted the group offering the class to express my positive reaction to their radio interview as well as inform them of my (original) post. I received a reply thanking me for my thoughts as well as the post. Knowing that I had already taken the Utah Permit Class, they extended an invitation to “sit in” on their upcoming class (to offer comments after class).

First and foremost I must say that I am a supporter of “local” efforts, so if you can schedule the Utah Class with jpm84092 (The Yellow Cat With The M-4) (member here) then by all means do so I will say that after taking his class I was totally satisfied. As there were only 2 students, it was pretty informal with a lot of “one on one” time with the instructor. As his classes are offered on a limited basis (when he is in WI.) if there is a scheduling conflict…

After sitting in on their class, I highly recommend this group … here’s why…

After being told, “this what we do”, it was obvious theses guy’s knew what they were doing. There credentials are too long to list here but qualified they are… as well as highly professional and extremely informed. There were about 25 – 30 people in attendance. I say “people” as there were a few ladies in the group. The actual material covered is what it is and is no doubt similar to other (good) classes. The difference was in the presentation and it showed in this class. It was AWESOME… their knowledge of current up to date Wisconsin information was impressive as well as there hands on demonstrations of drawing a firearm under different stressfull situations, and how to handle any misfires or jamming that might occur on the range. They covered anything and everything and then some over and above the “basic’s” needed for the permit. They also took pictures and supplied blank (blue) fingerprint cards need for the application. So basically it was a Utah Permit Class combined with some Safe Handling of Firearms, combined with a little Tactical Training all rolled into a 4 hour class. Well worth the time and money spent…

For information on all their classes and locations check here….

http://www.armedcitizentraining.us/schedule.htm

Again… I am not affiliated with this group in anyway and offered to post here based on my experience in their class… as well as trying to help anyone here gain access to an excellent opportunity to take the Utah Permit Class…

Outdoorsman1

davegran · Aug 3, 2011

Look into my crystal ball....

Deadscott said:
....Our curriculum meets and exceeds State of Wisconsin training requirements....

Now how would they know that when the DOJ hasn't even published the State of Wisconsin training requirements yet? :cuss:

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

davegran said:
Now how would they know that when the DOJ hasn't even published the State of Wisconsin training requirements yet? :cuss:

I think they were talking about these....

C. Training requirement
What kind of training is required to get a license?
In an application for a license, an individual must include proof of having received firearm training. The proof of training requirement may be met by any of the following:
A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an instructor or organization that conducted the course or program, that indicates that the individual completed any of the following (but see note below):
 The hunter education program established by the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) or a substantially similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and that is recognized by DNR.
• A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.
• A firearms safety or training course that is available to the public and is offered by a law enforcement agency
• A firearms safety or training course that is taught by an instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or by an instructor certified by DOJ, and that is available to the public and offered by any of the following: a technical college, a college or university, a private or public institution or organization, or a firearms training school.
• A firearms safety or training course that is offered to law enforcement officers or to owners and employees of licensed private detective and security agencies.
• A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a firearms instructor who is certified by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors or who is certified by DOJ.
Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program described above.
A current or expired license, or a photocopy of a current or expired license, that the individual holds or has held that indicates that the individual is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or in another state or in a county or
CCW FAQ 08/01/11
- 8 -
municipality of this state or of another state unless the license has been revoked for cause.
Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.

Outdoorsman1

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

davegran said:
Now how would they know that when the DOJ hasn't even published the State of Wisconsin training requirements yet? :cuss:

Dave...

As the ACT guys do not have access to posting here, I just received this e-mail...

From: Anthony Lambert, Chief Instructor [mailto:anthony@armedcitizentraining.us]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 3:05 PM
To:[e]mail]XXXXXXX@XXXXXXX[/email
Subject: RE: Sample Finger Print Card for Utah

Thanks XXXXX. Please extend an invitation to Davegran on the forum to be my personal guest to our course at no cost to him. I just want his feedback on our curriculum.

V/R,
Anthony J Lambert, Chief Instructor
Armed Citizen Training Group, LLC
Director of Training
Certified Firearms Instructor
224.789.0763

anthony@armedcitizentraining.us
www.armedcitizentraining.us
www.armedcitizentrng.com

Feel free to contact them as you see fit regarding their offer...

Outdoorsman1

davegran · Aug 3, 2011

Outdoorsman1 said:
I think they were talking about these....
Outdoorsman1

According to the DOJ FAQ,

It is expected that a variety of existing training programs
will be sufficient; however, until the rules are in place, no vendors can guarantee
that their training will qualify.

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

davegran said:
According to the DOJ FAQ,

It is expected that a variety of existing training programs
will be sufficient; however, until the rules are in place, no vendors can guarantee
that their training will qualify.

Granted...

Quote from their original e-mail...

Our curriculum meets and exceeds State of Wisconsin training requirements. Course Fee: $60.00

After I fixed it for them...

Our curriculum meets and exceeds Current State of Wisconsin training requirements. Course Fee: $60.00

Dave,

We both know that it is highly likely that the DOJ WILL recognize such Ntional organizations as the NRA certified instructors, Certified to train LEO in Firearms by the state of residence, A Utah C.C. Permit, Ex-Military Certified Firearms Instructors, Certified to train by other Sate and Federal Certifications, Etc... All of which these guys are.... They are not some fly by night group trying to pull a fast one...

Feel free to take them up on their offer for you to attend their class at no charge, and see for yourself... or at the very least contact them with your concern....

Outdoorsman1

Edited to add... They even go so far as to warn of a specific group advertizeing providing FASLE information as to the training requierments .....

davegran · Aug 3, 2011

Outdoorsman1 said:
Dave...

As the ACT guys do not have access to posting here, I just received this e-mail...

From: Anthony Lambert, Chief Instructor [mailto:anthony@armedcitizentraining.us]
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 3:05 PM
To:[e]mail]XXXXXXX@XXXXXXX[/email
Subject: RE: Sample Finger Print Card for Utah

Thanks XXXXX. Please extend an invitation to Davegran on the forum to be my personal guest to our course at no cost to him. I just want his feedback on our curriculum.

V/R,
Anthony J Lambert, Chief Instructor
Armed Citizen Training Group, LLC
Director of Training
Certified Firearms Instructor
224.789.0763

anthony@armedcitizentraining.us
www.armedcitizentraining.us
www.armedcitizentrng.com

Feel free to contact them as you see fit regarding their offer...

Outdoorsman1

This is a very interesting offer and I may even take them up on it; but they would have to understand two things:

Whether or not my opinion is that their course meets the requirements in 2011 WISCONSIN ACT 35, it is the DOJ's opinion that counts.
Whether or not I think that their course is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I would not be able to give a review or a public or private endorsement because that would smack of bribery.

Only under those conditions would I consider taking their course; so if they are monitoring this forum, we'll see what they think about that.

Thanks, Outdoorsman.

jpm84092 · Aug 3, 2011

$60.00 is a good price for the UT Course. (Or wait for my return)

I can't help but put my $0.02 into this thread.

1) The UT CFP course for $60.00 is a good deal given the prevailing prices of $140 - $160 I have seen advertised in Wisconsin.

2) The Wisconsin CCW Law (SB-93 as amended) is really clear on what will and will not be accepted as proof of training, despite the ramblings of DOJ on them determining what is acceptable or not. Indeed, it is "black letter law" and not subject to interpretation by any Wisconsin Agency.

3) On November 1, 2011 in Wisconsin it will be true that a permit from a state that requires firearms safety training (example: UT) will qualify as training in WI - if that state also does a background check to issue a permit. It is not as clear however that just taking the training for the UT permit will be acceptable. - Reasoning: First, all Utah BCI CFP instructors are or were either NRA or LEO POST Certified Firearms instructors. (UT Law changed such that you only have to be NRA or LEO POST Certified on day your permit application arrives at BCI.) Having the UT training is not the same as having a UT permit.

3) I AM NOT A LAWYER IN WISCONSIN ! Having said that, I can read the law and understand with good comprehension. Whether or not WI will accept a Certificate of Training from the business referenced in this post depends on how the Certificate is worded and how it is signed. By way of example, even though none of my students have requested this, I have offered to send a Certificate of Course Completion for my Utah CFP course students certifying that I taught the firearms familiarity portion of the Utah course using the Slide Presentation from the NRA Basic Pistol Course, Module 1 and Module 2, and that the student has received the classroom instruction necessary for completion of the NRA First Steps - Pistol Firearms Handling and Safety Course (but has not yet completed the range work). I would put my NRA Instructor Seal at the top of the Certificate and sign with my NRA Instructor Number. (In my last Utah CFP course, we saved firearms familiarity and safety for the end of the course and I taught the full NRA Basic Pistol Course. That made for a long day, but each student got the NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate.)

So, I suspect that any Certificate of Course Completion offered by this business may or may not be adjudged by WI DOJ as meeting WI requirements, depending on the wording. My advice to them is to tie their Certificate to a known NRA Course and sign as NRA Instructors.

Another alternative is a Certificate saying that John or Jane Student completed the UT Concealed Firearms Permit Course, including firearms familiarity and safety and affix the UT BCI Concealed Firearm Instructor Seal to the Certificate. This would qualify under WI CCW Law in that a Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor has been Certified by a Law Enforcement Agency; Utah BCI. For that Certificate, I would use the Official Utah BCI Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor Seal AND the red ink stamp of the BCI Certified Instructor(s).

While I agree that $60 is a good price for the UT Concealed Firearm Permit Course, I will be returning to WI either on Labor Day weekend or the last weekend in September to offer the UT CFP course, NRA First Steps, NRA Basic Pistol, and if enough students are interested (and already have NRA Basic Pistol or have just taken it from me) NRA Personal Protection in the Home. If it can be arranged, I may have with me another NRA Instructor who is also an IPSC Champion Shooter. (This part may or may not work out.)

My price schedule will be the same as before. Nobody will pay more than $40 for the UT course with WI Carry members getting deep discounts from there. The NRA courses will be MSRP for the textbooks ($30) + a graduated fee schedule dependent on military service history and membership in WI Carry and the NRA.

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

Dave said...

Whether or not my opinion is that their course meets the requirements in 2011 WISCONSIN ACT 35, it is the DOJ's opinion that counts.

They are not asking if you think their class meets DOJ requierments, all they are asking for is your honest opinion of the class itself and they way they present it.

Whether or not I think that their course is the greatest thing since sliced bread, I would not be able to give a review or a public or private endorsement because that would smack of bribery.

Bribery....????????

They are not offering you a free class IF you give them am endorsement or positive report public or private... They are offering you a free class to hear your feelings about their class. This communication can be done in private, face to face, after the class, with no need whatsoever to post anything here... "bribery" is a pretty stong word and I personally think it does not apply in this case. I made the decision to offer a post here after I sat in on the class and saw for myself their professionalisum. At no time did they ask me to post here.

Finally, I will say this, then I am finished on this subject..... WOW.....

Outdoorsman1

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 3, 2011

jpm84092 said:
I can't help but put my $0.02 into this thread.

1) The UT CFP course for $60.00 is a good deal given the prevailing prices of $140 - $160 I have seen advertised in Wisconsin.

2) The Wisconsin CCW Law (SB-93 as amended) is really clear on what will and will not be accepted as proof of training, despite the ramblings of DOJ on them determining what is acceptable or not. Indeed, it is "black letter law" and not subject to interpretation by any Wisconsin Agency.

3) On November 1, 2011 in Wisconsin it will be true that a permit from a state that requires firearms safety training (example: UT) will qualify as training in WI - if that state also does a background check to issue a permit. It is not as clear however that just taking the training for the UT permit will be acceptable. - Reasoning: First, all Utah BCI CFP instructors are or were either NRA or LEO POST Certified Firearms instructors. (UT Law changed such that you only have to be NRA or LEO POST Certified on day your permit application arrives at BCI.) Having the UT training is not the same as having a UT permit.

3) I AM NOT A LAWYER IN WISCONSIN ! Having said that, I can read the law and understand with good comprehension. Whether or not WI will accept a Certificate of Training from the business referenced in this post depends on how the Certificate is worded and how it is signed. By way of example, even though none of my students have requested this, I have offered to send a Certificate of Course Completion for my Utah CFP course students certifying that I taught the firearms familiarity portion of the Utah course using the Slide Presentation from the NRA Basic Pistol Course, Module 1 and Module 2, and that the student has received the classroom instruction necessary for completion of the NRA First Steps - Pistol Firearms Handling and Safety Course (but has not yet completed the range work). I would put my NRA Instructor Seal at the top of the Certificate and sign with my NRA Instructor Number. (In my last Utah CFP course, we saved firearms familiarity and safety for the end of the course and I taught the full NRA Basic Pistol Course. That made for a long day, but each student got the NRA Basic Pistol Course Certificate.)

So, I suspect that any Certificate of Course Completion offered by this business may or may not be adjudged by WI DOJ as meeting WI requirements, depending on the wording. My advice to them is to tie their Certificate to a known NRA Course and sign as NRA Instructors.

Another alternative is a Certificate saying that John or Jane Student completed the UT Concealed Firearms Permit Course, including firearms familiarity and safety and affix the UT BCI Concealed Firearm Instructor Seal to the Certificate. This would qualify under WI CCW Law in that a Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearms Permit Instructor has been Certified by a Law Enforcement Agency; Utah BCI. For that Certificate, I would use the Official Utah BCI Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor Seal AND the red ink stamp of the BCI Certified Instructor(s).

While I agree that $60 is a good price for the UT Concealed Firearm Permit Course, I will be returning to WI either on Labor Day weekend or the last weekend in September to offer the UT CFP course, NRA First Steps, NRA Basic Pistol, and if enough students are interested (and already have NRA Basic Pistol or have just taken it from me) NRA Personal Protection in the Home. If it can be arranged, I may have with me another NRA Instructor who is also an IPSC Champion Shooter. (This part may or may not work out.)

My price schedule will be the same as before. Nobody will pay more than $40 for the UT course with WI Carry members getting deep discounts from there. The NRA courses will be MSRP for the textbooks ($30) + a graduated fee schedule dependent on military service history and membership in WI Carry and the NRA.

This is quite possibly the best, most informative, accurate post I have read on the forum in a very long time..... Good on you....

Let me know if you will be offering the home defence class as I will be interested in attending.

Outdoorsman1

jpm84092 · Aug 4, 2011

Outdoorsman1 said:
This is quite possibly the best, most informative, accurate post I have read on the forum in a very long time..... Good on you....

Let me know if you will be offering the home defence class as I will be interested in attending.

Outdoorsman1

Thank you for the compliment Outdoorsman 1. If I can get 5 or more students, and can get a range that allows tactical movement, I will offer the NRA Personal Protection course. The range you are a member of could work if we could get a (temporary) plywood wall in place to simulate a bedroom wall inside a home.

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 4, 2011

jpm84092 said:
Thank you for the compliment Outdoorsman 1. If I can get 5 or more students, and can get a range that allows tactical movement, I will offer the NRA Personal Protection course. The range you are a member of could work if we could get a (temporary) plywood wall in place to simulate a bedroom wall inside a home.

I will check on the "tactical movement" thing and I would think a temporay plywood wall would be no problem.

Also, I checked to confirm that my "Certificate of Completion" (for show only as i already have my stamped application form your class) from the A.C.T. class discussed above is in fact signed as "NRA Certified Instuctor" complete with NRA Certification Number...

Outdoorsman1

Glockface · Aug 4, 2011

I would like to know why the prices are different for the same courses? I'm paying $80 for the WisCCW and Utah course held in brookfield when i could of taken the serb hall course for $60.What gives?

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 4, 2011

Glockface said:
I would like to know why the prices are different for the same courses? I'm paying $80 for the WisCCW and Utah course held in brookfield when i could of taken the serb hall course for $60.What gives?

I did hear something about location of the class caused a special class to be scheduled at Serb Hall.. ... Gander Mountain mandates a certain (higher) fee per student paid to them by ATC whereas that fee might not be a factor at Serb Hall.... I DO NOT KNOW if this has anything to due with the difference in cost... just passing on info that MIGHT be a factor... I know the $60.00 fee in the Sturtevant WI. Class was linked to mentioning that you heard their interview they did on Kenosha AM Radio....

My best advice would be to contact ATC through the e-mail links at there website and ask them this specific question... I would be interested in hearing there responce...

Outdoorsman1

Glockface · Aug 4, 2011

This the e mail response i got back,
The venue and advertising is different at different location.
He did say i could change to the other class if i wanted.

Outdoorsman1 · Aug 4, 2011

Glockface said:
This the e mail response i got back,
The venue and advertising is different at different location.
He did say i could change to the other class if i wanted.

I am thinking that per different locations there are different "overhead" costs such as mentioned in my post above. I was also going to mention that he would probably have no problem with you changing locations but as I had no authorization to make that statement, I felt it should come directly from him....

At least he gave you the option of changing locations to take advantage of the cheaper price...

Outdoorsman1

Glockface · Aug 4, 2011

I'm going to stay with the Brookfield location because i have some friends who are going to go and like that area.I've told most of my co-workers about the classes.

ACT Chief Instructor · Aug 5, 2011

Reply to Davegran

Davegran,

I don't think whatever I say or do will make any difference because, I can see that you will probably find something negative about it. However, I am a man of my word and my invitation is still extended to you. I never asked for any type of endorsement from you just your honest assessment of our curriculum. I believe we provide a quality product.

Your challenge of what I think about that, I really don't. Life is too short to dwell on skeptical thoughts. Being in combat teaches you stuff like that doesn't really matter. So, if you would like to attend, I look forward to your introduction face to face.

Respectfully,
Anthony

Utah CC Permit---Milwaukee---Serb Hall---$60

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