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Thread: Misinformed NRA instructors in Ct.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Misinformed NRA instructors in Ct.

    Inspired by CTClassic's efforts:

    This thread is going to be a listing of NRA instructors and the correspondence to and from them trying to get them to teach the correct information.

    One of the things we need to look at is if there is any course of action with the NRA or the state with instructors who refuse to post and teach correct legal information.

    Anyone should feel free to post an instructor, and anyone should feel free to take an instructor's education on. Please be polite and professional, and lets make a difference here.
    Last edited by Rich B; 08-03-2011 at 05:58 PM.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Instructor name: Bruce Gallup
    Company name: CT Pistol Safety
    Website: http://ctpistolsafety.com/
    Town: North Haven, CT
    Contact email: bruce@ctpistolsafety.com
    In question:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://ctpistolsafety.com/page5.html
    If I decide to carry a gun on my person for self-defense, am I required to conceal the gun?

    There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Instructor name: Bruce Gallup
    Company name: CT Pistol Safety
    Website: http://ctpistolsafety.com/
    Town: North Haven, CT
    Contact email: bruce@ctpistolsafety.com
    In question:
    First contact:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B
    I found the following on your website:

    |If I decide to carry a gun on my person for self-defense, am I required to conceal the gun?
    |There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, |your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.

    This is not true at all. Please cite your sources if you disagree. No NRA instructor in CT should be spreading this kind of misinformation.

    --
    Rich Burgess
    Ph: 203.208.9577

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    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Another win.....


    Just checked on Valley Firearms site and seems he's made an adjustment to his words........http://www.valleyfirearms.com/nra.html

    Just sent a thank you .........


    Rick,
    I just wanted to let you know that I noticed you took the time to change the wording on your site with regards to the question of Connecticut being a 'conceal-only' state. I am currently working with a couple more instructors to do the very same thing. Again, being part of the permit carrying population in the state, thank you for showing your willingness to present the truth and fairness to your perspective students, and community.
    Regards,

  5. #5
    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    I made a plea a few days ago for our members to write to The Outpost Guns and Ammo in Montville/Uncasville, in regards to their lackluster motivation in changing their website language about Connecticut issuing a conceal permit. I would like to meet, in person, with the owner to discuss this with him, but I want to have some knowledge as to who wrote/called before I do this. Please take a minute and drop him a friendly request, a minute at the keyboard will mean better educated permits holders ( and instructors). Thanks in advance--Craig

    The Outpost Guns and Ammo
    Gristmill Plaza
    1031 Norwich NL Turnpike
    Uncasville, Ct 06382
    860.848.4888
    http://outpostgunsandammo.com/conten..._guns_ammo.asp

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    WooT thats awesome I'm glad he changed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    Another win.....


    Just checked on Valley Firearms site and seems he's made an adjustment to his words........http://www.valleyfirearms.com/nra.html

    Just sent a thank you .........


    Rick,
    I just wanted to let you know that I noticed you took the time to change the wording on your site with regards to the question of Connecticut being a 'conceal-only' state. I am currently working with a couple more instructors to do the very same thing. Again, being part of the permit carrying population in the state, thank you for showing your willingness to present the truth and fairness to your perspective students, and community.
    Regards,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    I made a plea a few days ago for our members to write to The Outpost Guns and Ammo in Montville/Uncasville, in regards to their lackluster motivation in changing their website language about Connecticut issuing a conceal permit. I would like to meet, in person, with the owner to discuss this with him, but I want to have some knowledge as to who wrote/called before I do this. Please take a minute and drop him a friendly request, a minute at the keyboard will mean better educated permits holders ( and instructors). Thanks in advance--Craig

    The Outpost Guns and Ammo
    Gristmill Plaza
    1031 Norwich NL Turnpike
    Uncasville, Ct 06382
    860.848.4888
    http://outpostgunsandammo.com/conten..._guns_ammo.asp
    I did write to him and explain that he needs to change his wording and why. Also that I would not be doing business there till he does.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Mitola View Post
    I did write to him and explain that he needs to change his wording and why. Also that I would not be doing business there till he does.
    Same here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1584480

    No response.

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    I wrote to the NRA asking if they could streamline all of the information that's being taught to future permit holders, and how many instructors aren't properly educating them. Below are the responses:

    "Hello Heriberto,

    I reviewed the web site's attached.
    I do not see anything stating "Concealed Carry only"

    I went to the NRA-ILA web page http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CTSL.pdf
    And reviewed CT State law concerning firearms laws and found this;

    A permit to carry a pistol or revolver is required to
    carry a handgun on or about one's person, either openly
    or concealed, or in a vehicle. However, the Connecticut
    Board of Firearms Permit Examiners (which reviews
    denials and revocations of permits) cautions that "every
    effort should be made to ensure that no gun is exposed
    to view or carried in a manner that would tend to alarm
    people who see it."
    A permit to carry is required to carry a handgun
    outside one's home (even though one may still be on his
    own property) or in any place of business in which one is
    merely an employee, not an owner or operator. A permit
    is also required to transport a handgun back and forth
    between one's home and place of business, or to and from
    a range for target shooting.
    In order to receive a state permit to Carry Pistol and
    Revolvers, a local permit must be obtained first. Out-of state
    residents may apply for a non-resident Connecticut
    State Pistol Permit, and apply directly to the Connecticut
    State Police.

    It appears that a permit is required to carry either openly or concealed.

    NRA
    Mark M Richardson
    National Rifle Association
    Instructor Program Coordinator
    mrichardson@nrahq.org
    (703) 267-1428
    (703) 267-3999 (fax)"

    Second response in regards to the old "no firearms exposed" comment from the BFPE. I mentioned the uniamous 5-0 that OC is legal and doesn't constitute breach of peace...

    "Thank you for the update Heriberto,
    I will forward this information to the NRA-ILA division so they can make the appropriate corrections,

    The NRA Basic Pistol Course that is being advertised does not include State law, so whether CT
    recognizes open carry or not should not be an issue at this level.

    We do have a Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home course
    that covers State law in one of the lessons. That lesson is not taught by the NRA Certified Instructor
    but by some one who is licensed by the State to teach the use of deadly force or licensed to practice
    law in the State the course is conducted in. those individuals should be up to date with the current laws.


    NRA
    Mark M Richardson
    National Rifle Association
    Instructor Program Coordinator
    mrichardson@nrahq.org
    (703) 267-1428
    (703) 267-3999 (fax)"

    Mark was quick with his responses. Let's see what happens.....

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoboy7 View Post
    ...We do have a Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home course
    that covers State law in one of the lessons. That lesson is not taught by the NRA Certified Instructor
    but by some one who is licensed by the State to teach the use of deadly force or licensed to practice
    law in the State the course is conducted in. those individuals should be up to date with the current laws...
    You beat me to it.

    In my certification classes to be an NRA Instructor in Personal Defense (In and Outside the Home) it was made clear to us that it is preferable to bring in an attorney to teach the chapter on local laws. If the State recognizes our ability to teach this section, we do so then in that cognizance and not as an NRA Instructor for that chapter. Hopefully the rest of us are making that clear to our students as well.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-04-2011 at 01:25 AM.

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    The course is about gun safety, not gun law.

    I point them in the right direction and hand them info (more than most) but I don't go too deep into it.

    If something should happen, the instructor can be screwed for giving bad advice.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    Rich, I noticed you over on the other site, and your right Mad River needs us....I did drop him a polite email.


    Here is his site if anyone else would like to shoot off a quick note......http://www.mad-river-firearms.com/?page_id=72



    ....one at a time

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    The course is about gun safety, not gun law.

    I point them in the right direction and hand them info (more than most) but I don't go too deep into it.

    If something should happen, the instructor can be screwed for giving bad advice.

    Jonathan
    ^^^^^^^^^^
    This right here. When I became a pistol instructor it was made very clear to me that the course is not about the law, I was not to teach the law or give legal advice. If the student had questions I should point them in the right direction and suggest if they still had concerns to consult their lawyer. To this end I include CCDL's "Is It Legal?" pamphlet in the student packs, and again make sure they know that info is from CCDL and they should research it themselves or consult a lawyer. I do know at least one pistol class that actually DOES bring in a lawyer who specializes in firearms laws to talk to the class. That's very cool but if I did that I'd have to charge a LOT more!

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    I am not really sure why it matters if they are or aren't supposed to teach legal information.

    The fact is, many are. And it is incorrect legal information. Therefore, it needs to be fixed.

    Is the thought that we should be telling the instructors to not mention concealed or open carry at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    I am not really sure why it matters if they are or aren't supposed to teach legal information.

    The fact is, many are. And it is incorrect legal information. Therefore, it needs to be fixed.

    Is the thought that we should be telling the instructors to not mention concealed or open carry at all?
    That's part of the reason we are not supposed to give out legal information. We are not lawyers, we are not trained in the law as part of our certification (as far as firearm instructors go; I believe the self defense instructors may be. I'm only certified as a pistol instructor and as a range safety officer), there is no legal component to the official course, and there is no state requirement that students/permitees learn it. The NRA currently does not certify instructors on a state-by-state basis; there is only a pistol instructor. To include the law would require trainers and instructors to be certified down to a state, possibly a local level. Maybe Pistol Instructor with CT and NYC endorsments? In any case it would require a total revamp of the NRA's instructor program as well as retraining/recertifying all trainers and instructors. The only way that is likely to happen is if the state passes a law requiring state specific training. I don't think anyone here wants to see MORE gun laws.

    In truth, as we've seen here, non-lawyers giving legal advise usually leads to misinformation. The reality of it is though, anyone who carries a gun MUST be aware of the law. We try to stress that, and point students in the right direction. If asked point blank about open carry, my reply would be along the lines of "as I and many others read the laws it is perfectly legal in CT. There is nothing I've found in the state laws forbiding it. Some police officers may not agree. I suggest you read the laws and decide for yourself". Again, I supply CCDL's "Is It Legal?" to each student as a starting point in their research.

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    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Ok, so I don't really see an opposition to or problem with having the instructors involved educated on the laws. Whether or not they teach the laws is their business. But when they have blatantly erroneous information on their site (CT Concealed Weapons Permit), or someone indicates they were teaching false things in their class (state law requires you to conceal), they need to be informed and educated.

    That is the point of this thread.

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    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    If I may draw a parallel....Having a certified NRA instructor offer a coarse to a perspective student and teach about gun safety and handling and NOT include relative laws of a particular state would be like sending your teenager to a driving school to learn how to drive a car but not teach him/her that there are laws that go with driving.

    I believe with the national opencarry 'movement' picking up momentum, the NRA needs to address to their instructors the need to communicate the laws/options on OC.

    Just the way I see it-----

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    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    Apparently one more 'instructor' informed, albeit particially.......................

    Hello,
    No, in Connecticut you have the right to carry exposed but as I am an instructor for the NRA and not a state representative I can not answer that question entirely. I am going to re-word that right now to eliminate the implication that carrying concealed is your only option. I apologize if this has deterred you in any way from my class and if you would like to communicate further please email me back or call me and I will be more than happy to talk to you.

    Thanks


    His name is Stephen McLendon ------ smcshooting@gmail.com

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    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    If I may draw a parallel....Having a certified NRA instructor offer a coarse to a perspective student and teach about gun safety and handling and NOT include relative laws of a particular state would be like sending your teenager to a driving school to learn how to drive a car but not teach him/her that there are laws that go with driving.
    Bad parallel, in my opinion.

    A driving course includes testing where laws of the road are discussed. This is why such basic laws are covered.

    The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever. There are a lot more pistol laws and it would open up instructors to a TON of liability and insurance if we were to cover law. I have insurance, yes. But, given the potential litigation for improper legal discussion by untrained law professionals, premiums would be INSANE.

    Nothing is stopping someone from getting questions answered by an attorney. Not terribly expensive to get a lawyers "hour" to assist you with any comprehension if you can't understand it yourself.

    Here is a parallel, you don't need to know law to buy a house and property, but if you don't get the services of a lawyer when making the biggest purchase of your house, you're responsible if you get screwed.

    The responsibility is on the individual. Get a permit and a gun, you're life changes. Make responsible decisions that go hand in hand with the responsibility.

    *****

    On Rich's point, I agree. You don't need to be a lawyer to state that yes, open carry is legal. I also drop the CCDL brochure in my student packs, it was lawyer reviewed when it was put together by someone with a tad bit more legal experience than myself.

    I know the law a bit more than most on the issue, but it's not what the course was designed for - especially in 8 hours.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    KIX----
    " The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever"

    Do you mean to say, that when you teach a class you don't discuss the ramafacations from someone who doesn't store a handgun properly and a child is in the house. Say, the child gains access to it and takes it outside to show his/her friends, cops called, parent gets charged with risk of injury, unproperly storage of firearm etc... I would think you would go over those such laws, why wouldn't/shouldn't conceal/open be discussed? A law is a law... I thought everyone more or less agrees that there is little (if any) grey area on OC in Connecticut.

    " There are a lot more pistol laws..."

    ...More than driving laws??? I would doubt that.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    ..I believe with the national opencarry 'movement' picking up momentum, the NRA needs to address to their instructors the need to communicate the laws/options on OC...
    This is not an NRA problem. It is the course that the State is requiring. The NRA Basic Pistol does not have a section on legal. The NRA courses on Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home do include legal sections, which are supposed to be taught by a lawyer or someone else authorized by the state to conduct a course on firearms legalities. This may or may not be the NRA-Certified Instructor.

    If the laws should be taught, then the State has to require a different NRA class, if they are requiring an NRA class.

    NV requires a course very similar to the NRA PPOTH course. FL requires ANY type of certificate which they can construe to include some type of firearm training. They accept Hunter Safety classes. They even accept military discharge papers whether your job in the military gave you any firearms experience or not.
    Last edited by MAC702; 08-06-2011 at 07:52 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    Apparently one more 'instructor' informed, albeit particially.......................

    Hello,
    No, in Connecticut you have the right to carry exposed but as I am an instructor for the NRA and not a state representative...
    Actually, we are told matter-of-factly in our instructor classes, that we are not "instructors for the NRA." We are NRA-certified instructors. We do not work for the NRA. He should have worded that part better, too.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    Here's ANOTHER instructor that has a destorted view on OC.......he lists his 'business' as..................

    Concealed Carry Pistol Class
    John S. Oswecki, instructor
    860.966.1724

    Here is his response to my inquiry to the title of his class.............

    Hello Craig I know there is no law on the books in Ct that the firearm has to be concealed, the problem is if you walk around with your firearm out in full view you will more than likely run into problems of some sort. This state is not like Utah or other states that are more gun friendly. As far as the name I am not implying that Ct is a concealed carry state as I tell my students there is no law on the books that the firearm needs to be concealed it's just better idea to avoid an issue. I hope this answered your question.

    Thank you
    John



    ......No John, it really doesn't

  24. #24
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ctclassic View Post
    KIX----
    " The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever"

    Do you mean to say, that when you teach a class you don't discuss the ramafacations from someone who doesn't store a handgun properly and a child is in the house.
    Again, bad argument.

    We do discuss child safety. Part of the Basic Pistol Safety course is...... here's the key word.... safety! There is no need to go into the obvious ramifications..... just like I don't need to be educated as to the ramifications on what happens if I intentionally drive my Altima into a preschool playground running over children while listening to gangsta rap, smoking a blunt and texting. It's obvious that people are responsible for their own common sense actions.

    The course is a requirement (or something similar). If we had to cover law, getting a permit in this state would cost at least double so we could have an attorney in each class.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Ctclassic's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I just have accept the fact that things have changed since I was issued my permit. I remember being 'briefed' on numerous laws during the class. NOW MAYBE, it was because the instructor was either a retired or active state trooper at the time, ( 26 years ago ). Not sure.


    I will go back to the time consuming task at hand, calling out all applicable instructors that have the notion that CT is a CC state.

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