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Misinformed NRA instructors in Ct.

Rich B

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Oct 13, 2009
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2,909
Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Inspired by CTClassic's efforts:

This thread is going to be a listing of NRA instructors and the correspondence to and from them trying to get them to teach the correct information.

One of the things we need to look at is if there is any course of action with the NRA or the state with instructors who refuse to post and teach correct legal information.

Anyone should feel free to post an instructor, and anyone should feel free to take an instructor's education on. Please be polite and professional, and lets make a difference here.
 
Last edited:

Rich B

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Oct 13, 2009
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Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Instructor name: Bruce Gallup
Company name: CT Pistol Safety
Website: http://ctpistolsafety.com/
Town: North Haven, CT
Contact email: bruce@ctpistolsafety.com
In question:

http://ctpistolsafety.com/page5.html said:
If I decide to carry a gun on my person for self-defense, am I required to conceal the gun?

There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.
 

Rich B

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Oct 13, 2009
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Location
North Branford, Connecticut, USA
Instructor name: Bruce Gallup
Company name: CT Pistol Safety
Website: http://ctpistolsafety.com/
Town: North Haven, CT
Contact email: bruce@ctpistolsafety.com
In question:

First contact:

Rich B said:
I found the following on your website:

|If I decide to carry a gun on my person for self-defense, am I required to conceal the gun?
|There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, |your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.

This is not true at all. Please cite your sources if you disagree. No NRA instructor in CT should be spreading this kind of misinformation.

--
Rich Burgess
Ph: 203.208.9577
 

Ctclassic

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Mar 11, 2010
Messages
172
Location
Plainfield, CT, ,
Another win.....


Just checked on Valley Firearms site and seems he's made an adjustment to his words........http://www.valleyfirearms.com/nra.html

Just sent a thank you .........


Rick,
I just wanted to let you know that I noticed you took the time to change the wording on your site with regards to the question of Connecticut being a 'conceal-only' state. I am currently working with a couple more instructors to do the very same thing. Again, being part of the permit carrying population in the state, thank you for showing your willingness to present the truth and fairness to your perspective students, and community.
Regards,
 

Ctclassic

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Messages
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Location
Plainfield, CT, ,
I made a plea a few days ago for our members to write to The Outpost Guns and Ammo in Montville/Uncasville, in regards to their lackluster motivation in changing their website language about Connecticut issuing a conceal permit. I would like to meet, in person, with the owner to discuss this with him, but I want to have some knowledge as to who wrote/called before I do this. Please take a minute and drop him a friendly request, a minute at the keyboard will mean better educated permits holders ( and instructors). Thanks in advance--Craig

The Outpost Guns and Ammo
Gristmill Plaza
1031 Norwich NL Turnpike
Uncasville, Ct 06382
860.848.4888
http://outpostgunsandammo.com/content/pistol_permit_classes_outpost_guns_ammo.asp
 

Shawn Mitola

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Messages
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Location
Shelton
WooT thats awesome I'm glad he changed it.

Another win.....


Just checked on Valley Firearms site and seems he's made an adjustment to his words........http://www.valleyfirearms.com/nra.html

Just sent a thank you .........


Rick,
I just wanted to let you know that I noticed you took the time to change the wording on your site with regards to the question of Connecticut being a 'conceal-only' state. I am currently working with a couple more instructors to do the very same thing. Again, being part of the permit carrying population in the state, thank you for showing your willingness to present the truth and fairness to your perspective students, and community.
Regards,
 

Shawn Mitola

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
138
Location
Shelton
I made a plea a few days ago for our members to write to The Outpost Guns and Ammo in Montville/Uncasville, in regards to their lackluster motivation in changing their website language about Connecticut issuing a conceal permit. I would like to meet, in person, with the owner to discuss this with him, but I want to have some knowledge as to who wrote/called before I do this. Please take a minute and drop him a friendly request, a minute at the keyboard will mean better educated permits holders ( and instructors). Thanks in advance--Craig

The Outpost Guns and Ammo
Gristmill Plaza
1031 Norwich NL Turnpike
Uncasville, Ct 06382
860.848.4888
http://outpostgunsandammo.com/content/pistol_permit_classes_outpost_guns_ammo.asp

I did write to him and explain that he needs to change his wording and why. Also that I would not be doing business there till he does.
 

beanoboy7

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Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
68
Location
Hartford, Connecticut, United States
I wrote to the NRA asking if they could streamline all of the information that's being taught to future permit holders, and how many instructors aren't properly educating them. Below are the responses:

"Hello Heriberto,

I reviewed the web site's attached.
I do not see anything stating "Concealed Carry only"

I went to the NRA-ILA web page http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CTSL.pdf
And reviewed CT State law concerning firearms laws and found this;

A permit to carry a pistol or revolver is required to
carry a handgun on or about one's person, either openly
or concealed, or in a vehicle. However, the Connecticut
Board of Firearms Permit Examiners (which reviews
denials and revocations of permits) cautions that "every
effort should be made to ensure that no gun is exposed
to view or carried in a manner that would tend to alarm
people who see it."
A permit to carry is required to carry a handgun
outside one's home (even though one may still be on his
own property) or in any place of business in which one is
merely an employee, not an owner or operator. A permit
is also required to transport a handgun back and forth
between one's home and place of business, or to and from
a range for target shooting.
In order to receive a state permit to Carry Pistol and
Revolvers, a local permit must be obtained first. Out-of state
residents may apply for a non-resident Connecticut
State Pistol Permit, and apply directly to the Connecticut
State Police.

It appears that a permit is required to carry either openly or concealed.

NRA
Mark M Richardson
National Rifle Association
Instructor Program Coordinator
mrichardson@nrahq.org
(703) 267-1428
(703) 267-3999 (fax)"

Second response in regards to the old "no firearms exposed" comment from the BFPE. I mentioned the uniamous 5-0 that OC is legal and doesn't constitute breach of peace...

"Thank you for the update Heriberto,
I will forward this information to the NRA-ILA division so they can make the appropriate corrections,

The NRA Basic Pistol Course that is being advertised does not include State law, so whether CT
recognizes open carry or not should not be an issue at this level.

We do have a Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home course
that covers State law in one of the lessons. That lesson is not taught by the NRA Certified Instructor
but by some one who is licensed by the State to teach the use of deadly force or licensed to practice
law in the State the course is conducted in. those individuals should be up to date with the current laws.


NRA
Mark M Richardson
National Rifle Association
Instructor Program Coordinator
mrichardson@nrahq.org
(703) 267-1428
(703) 267-3999 (fax)"

Mark was quick with his responses. Let's see what happens.....
 

MAC702

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Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
...We do have a Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home course
that covers State law in one of the lessons. That lesson is not taught by the NRA Certified Instructor
but by some one who is licensed by the State to teach the use of deadly force or licensed to practice
law in the State the course is conducted in. those individuals should be up to date with the current laws...

You beat me to it.

In my certification classes to be an NRA Instructor in Personal Defense (In and Outside the Home) it was made clear to us that it is preferable to bring in an attorney to teach the chapter on local laws. If the State recognizes our ability to teach this section, we do so then in that cognizance and not as an NRA Instructor for that chapter. Hopefully the rest of us are making that clear to our students as well.
 
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KIX

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The course is about gun safety, not gun law.

I point them in the right direction and hand them info (more than most) but I don't go too deep into it.

If something should happen, the instructor can be screwed for giving bad advice.

Jonathan
 

Mopar

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Location
, Connecticut, USA
The course is about gun safety, not gun law.

I point them in the right direction and hand them info (more than most) but I don't go too deep into it.

If something should happen, the instructor can be screwed for giving bad advice.

Jonathan

^^^^^^^^^^
This right here. When I became a pistol instructor it was made very clear to me that the course is not about the law, I was not to teach the law or give legal advice. If the student had questions I should point them in the right direction and suggest if they still had concerns to consult their lawyer. To this end I include CCDL's "Is It Legal?" pamphlet in the student packs, and again make sure they know that info is from CCDL and they should research it themselves or consult a lawyer. I do know at least one pistol class that actually DOES bring in a lawyer who specializes in firearms laws to talk to the class. That's very cool but if I did that I'd have to charge a LOT more!
 

Rich B

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I am not really sure why it matters if they are or aren't supposed to teach legal information.

The fact is, many are. And it is incorrect legal information. Therefore, it needs to be fixed.

Is the thought that we should be telling the instructors to not mention concealed or open carry at all?
 

Mopar

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Messages
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Location
, Connecticut, USA
I am not really sure why it matters if they are or aren't supposed to teach legal information.

The fact is, many are. And it is incorrect legal information. Therefore, it needs to be fixed.

Is the thought that we should be telling the instructors to not mention concealed or open carry at all?

That's part of the reason we are not supposed to give out legal information. We are not lawyers, we are not trained in the law as part of our certification (as far as firearm instructors go; I believe the self defense instructors may be. I'm only certified as a pistol instructor and as a range safety officer), there is no legal component to the official course, and there is no state requirement that students/permitees learn it. The NRA currently does not certify instructors on a state-by-state basis; there is only a pistol instructor. To include the law would require trainers and instructors to be certified down to a state, possibly a local level. Maybe Pistol Instructor with CT and NYC endorsments? In any case it would require a total revamp of the NRA's instructor program as well as retraining/recertifying all trainers and instructors. The only way that is likely to happen is if the state passes a law requiring state specific training. I don't think anyone here wants to see MORE gun laws.

In truth, as we've seen here, non-lawyers giving legal advise usually leads to misinformation. The reality of it is though, anyone who carries a gun MUST be aware of the law. We try to stress that, and point students in the right direction. If asked point blank about open carry, my reply would be along the lines of "as I and many others read the laws it is perfectly legal in CT. There is nothing I've found in the state laws forbiding it. Some police officers may not agree. I suggest you read the laws and decide for yourself". Again, I supply CCDL's "Is It Legal?" to each student as a starting point in their research.
 

Rich B

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Ok, so I don't really see an opposition to or problem with having the instructors involved educated on the laws. Whether or not they teach the laws is their business. But when they have blatantly erroneous information on their site (CT Concealed Weapons Permit), or someone indicates they were teaching false things in their class (state law requires you to conceal), they need to be informed and educated.

That is the point of this thread.
 

Ctclassic

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If I may draw a parallel....Having a certified NRA instructor offer a coarse to a perspective student and teach about gun safety and handling and NOT include relative laws of a particular state would be like sending your teenager to a driving school to learn how to drive a car but not teach him/her that there are laws that go with driving.

I believe with the national opencarry 'movement' picking up momentum, the NRA needs to address to their instructors the need to communicate the laws/options on OC.

Just the way I see it-----
 

Ctclassic

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Apparently one more 'instructor' informed, albeit particially.......................

Hello,
No, in Connecticut you have the right to carry exposed but as I am an instructor for the NRA and not a state representative I can not answer that question entirely. I am going to re-word that right now to eliminate the implication that carrying concealed is your only option. I apologize if this has deterred you in any way from my class and if you would like to communicate further please email me back or call me and I will be more than happy to talk to you.

Thanks


His name is Stephen McLendon ------ smcshooting@gmail.com
 

KIX

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If I may draw a parallel....Having a certified NRA instructor offer a coarse to a perspective student and teach about gun safety and handling and NOT include relative laws of a particular state would be like sending your teenager to a driving school to learn how to drive a car but not teach him/her that there are laws that go with driving.

Bad parallel, in my opinion.

A driving course includes testing where laws of the road are discussed. This is why such basic laws are covered.

The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever. There are a lot more pistol laws and it would open up instructors to a TON of liability and insurance if we were to cover law. I have insurance, yes. But, given the potential litigation for improper legal discussion by untrained law professionals, premiums would be INSANE.

Nothing is stopping someone from getting questions answered by an attorney. Not terribly expensive to get a lawyers "hour" to assist you with any comprehension if you can't understand it yourself.

Here is a parallel, you don't need to know law to buy a house and property, but if you don't get the services of a lawyer when making the biggest purchase of your house, you're responsible if you get screwed.

The responsibility is on the individual. Get a permit and a gun, you're life changes. Make responsible decisions that go hand in hand with the responsibility.

*****

On Rich's point, I agree. You don't need to be a lawyer to state that yes, open carry is legal. I also drop the CCDL brochure in my student packs, it was lawyer reviewed when it was put together by someone with a tad bit more legal experience than myself.

I know the law a bit more than most on the issue, but it's not what the course was designed for - especially in 8 hours.

Jonathan
 

Ctclassic

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KIX----
" The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever"

Do you mean to say, that when you teach a class you don't discuss the ramafacations from someone who doesn't store a handgun properly and a child is in the house. Say, the child gains access to it and takes it outside to show his/her friends, cops called, parent gets charged with risk of injury, unproperly storage of firearm etc... I would think you would go over those such laws, why wouldn't/shouldn't conceal/open be discussed? A law is a law... I thought everyone more or less agrees that there is little (if any) grey area on OC in Connecticut.

" There are a lot more pistol laws..."

...More than driving laws??? I would doubt that.
 
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