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Thread: Man beaten to death by police?

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Man beaten to death by police?

    My only question is how six police officers could not subdue one unarmed man in a reasonable manner.

    http://on.msnbc.com/oGfU3d
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  2. #2
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    that is incredibly disgusting. ...........................
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    ...and yet again, they alone are on leave because someone video taped it....think of the countless thousands of times a day police abuse its citizens and it isn't on camera....

    I'm just sick to the stomach.....bastards...

    I wonder how many others suffered at the hands of these officers....If I lived there I would be doing a thorough record search into all the cases those officers were involved in...I bet you'll find at least a few reports or mentions in court about abuse...that were probably dismissed as "criminals" in denial.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 08-03-2011 at 10:20 PM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    This kind of thing is a good reason to be careful during a police encounter.

    Notice that six officers were involved. Now, what are the odds that the only six bad cops in the entire department just all happened to be working at the same time in the same area such that five of them would be the exact ones to respond to the first one's call for back up?

    I feel very bad for the deceased and his mom. But, I'm of mixed feelings towards dad. I don't think its mentioned in the linked article, but in other articles it is mentioned that dad is a retired cop or deputy sheriff. How could he not know that men like this worked in policing? What did he do during his career to tear down the Blue Wall of Silence and all that it hides? Did he just go along with it? Agree with it? I think I just changed my mind. I'll bet dad feels awful about his omissions or commissions on that subject. I can't help but feel a little bit sorry for him.

    Perhaps this will be the catalyst for he and other father-cops to tear down that Blue Wall of Silence, end police tolerance of rights abusers in their ranks--large and small, and demand reforms to hold police accountable.

    For an interesting take on police investigating police, and honest cops see this article.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-04-2011 at 12:41 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    thanks for the fascinating LINK Citizen...
    watching the cops that dont BEAT the citizen, but keep the crowd at bay,
    makes me wonder how easy those cops could stop the beatings so keeping the crowd at bay wouldnt be needed...

    I also wonder when, or how someone will use lawful and lethal means, to defend the life of
    a citizen that is being beaten to a pulp for no good reason...
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    My only question is how six police officers could not subdue one unarmed man in a reasonable manner.
    I'm sure that all six police reports indicated the man would not 'stop resisting'.....

    Edit to add: Or that they subdued him in that manner for 'officer safety'...
    Last edited by Blk97F150; 08-04-2011 at 05:58 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Citizen..

    that linked article almost made me puke. Any suggestions on the best way to get our officers re-trained to respect our laws and our rights?

    I am feeling very depressed now. At least my doom and gloom side made money in the stock market today!

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Fullerton mayor, encouraging folks to calm down: "It's almost gotten to a lynching stage."

    Oh. You mean like the raging roids which fueled six heavily armed policemen to beat a single unarmed man to death?

    Give me a break, Mr. Mayor. Your thugs screwed up, royally. Admit it, re-direct the attention to where it was very well earned: On the police officers who violated their oaths of office "to serve and protect" the community.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    that linked article almost made me puke. Any suggestions on the best way to get our officers re-trained to respect our laws and our rights?

    I am feeling very depressed now. At least my doom and gloom side made money in the stock market today!
    The only way is by getting rid of the modern police force and the powers they have. Here is my rant from another thread in Washington, after being accused of being "Anti LEO" from a person that insists the bad apples are quickly "weeded out".

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?92849-Remember-they-disarm-you-for-quot-Officer-Safety-quot-./page2

    The "bad apple" argument doesn't hold water with me. There is a serious problem with LEA's and LEO's, any body who denies it isn't seeing the picture clearly. When you give agencies and people unconstitutional powers that are often unchecked it is going to attract a certain type of person to that job.

    E.G. engineers are a-type/anal personalities typically along with accountants. Those type of jobs fit their personalities. Now create a job where someone is allowed to have "power" over someone else and you are going to attract bullies and jerks. Those who picked on others in school and those who were picked on in school etc. Now this is not to say all cops are this but a large amount are. I don't care how much people want to deny it it is true. And the more we allow police and LEA's to get away with their crimes and over look it the more it will attract these people.

    Limit their powers constitutionally, along with the amount of taxes they get and drastically reduce their numbers. Overturn ridiculous tyranny supporting cop favorable court rulings. Make more people aware of their rights, properly instruct juries, enforce the SCOTUS rulings we have the right to resist unlawful arrest and make sure police know this so they are damn sure they are correct when stopping a "civilian". Get rid of the militarization, the "people" having more rights as private citizens constitutionally, have the right to have the bigger guns. Fire all cops that lie (this is suppose to happen already, Brady vs. Maryland), why do they get to commit the felonious crime of perjury when you go to court for a misdemeanor? No more SWAT, no more undercover entrapment, no more enforcement of unconstitutional drug laws. Police should be local and not brought in from other areas. I could go on......if you are not at least concerned about the condition of "law enforcement" (even that word bothers me, it is the government using force against it's civilians) than you are not paying attention, apathetic or suffer from 'copafilia'.

    Now should I go to prosecutors? Since they often are the top cop in your area? We need to separate their power and alliance with police. There needs to be consequences for frivolous cases brought against the people. They too need to be constitutionally restrained and not invent "noveau" ways of prosecuting. When laws are "vague" the benefit of the doubt needs to go to the "perp". Rudy Giulani, Janet Reno are two famous prosecutors who sent innocent men to jail. How about the fact that Martha Stewart did time for "lying" about a crime she did not commit? Sofa King What!!!!!! They need to adhere to a strict Blackstone law tradition our country was founded on, you need a victim, actus reaus and mens rea to even bring someone to a grand jury. That asinine saying "ignorance is no excuse" is b******t ignorance is an excuse. So many cases they hide exculpatory evidence or use the plea bargain to win cases, because they have almost unlimited funds to prosecute how can we win when even rich folks like Mike Milken can't even fight the power of the state.

    They are political beasts who look at conviction rates for reelection, but if you inform yourself you will find that the overwhelming conviction rates are based on plea bargains (high 90's percentage in many cases). So their convictions are not even for the crime they brought the "perp" to court for, and in many cases it is simply akin to Soviet Gulag or Middle age torture "confessions" because of the pressure put upon a person both monetarily and threats of higher convictions. So many people, not guilty, simply confess. Look at Sigfan if his attorney didn't force the prosecutor to look at the evidence (the video prosecutor wanted to exclude) he would have been convicted of something he didn't do. (The police also dragged their feet and didn't follow the judges order concerning his weapon, something they did in Berretta Lady's case too) Like the police there are too many problems with prosecution in this country to address in this post.

    Should I move on to judges? (Many who are ex prosecutors) fighting against jury nullification, inventing new ways to read the law, allowing personal feelings to cloud, strict constitutional rulings, (allowing politicians to threaten them to affect their rulings, SCOTUS's dramatic change under FDR) improper jury instructions. Taking a cops word over a "civilians" when the burden of the proof is supposed to be on the state.

    Yes there is something seriously wrong with our "justice" system, not just the cops it is from the bottom up. People who want to use demagoguery against those of us who are outspoken against this system are part of the problem. It's like when someone says, 'I think we need reform welfare', saying "Oh you must want women and children to die!'. But cops are the "force" behind these political issues they willingly choose to enforce and partake in these unconstitutional and anti liberty tactics.

    There will be a struggle a war of sorts, I think it has already started, people are going to choose sides what side are You on? (not said to anyone specific hence the capitalization of you) I will choose and always choose the side that is closest to individual liberty and freedom.

    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I strongly suggest the Book "Tyranny Through Good Intentions" by Roberts and Stratton.

    Also "Constitutional Chaos" by Judge Napolitano.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    that linked article almost made me puke. Any suggestions on the best way to get our officers re-trained to respect our laws and our rights?

    I am feeling very depressed now. At least my doom and gloom side made money in the stock market today!
    You can't 'retrain' murderous thugs. These pos belong in Federal Prison--at the least. 18 USC 242--the man was murdered; the scum stormtroopers should be looking at the death penalty. Vermin like this should be exterminated. That would set the right example for the other badge wearing scum. If the fbi doesn't act in its usually cowardly manner, these murderers will be in custody.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The only way is by getting rid of the modern police force and the powers they have. Here is my rant from another thread in Washington, after being accused of being "Anti LEO" from a person that insists the bad apples are quickly "weeded out".

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?92849-Remember-they-disarm-you-for-quot-Officer-Safety-quot-./page2




    "Bad apples quickly weeded out..." what a ******* moron! The bad apples take over the rest of the SS squad. The scum cops with their "blue wall of silence" get protected. So the 'good cop" who does nothing is just as bad as they are.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Svg:

    I remember reading that thread. Helluva nice rant.

    I was trying not to "cop bash" too badly. The incident is sickening, and the officers ARE murderers.

    And, as Guslinger said, cops protect each other. Don't exactly know how to fix that; I think we have an inherent tribal respose built in. Of course, we must hold those with "power" over us to a higher standard. But "tribalism" and "kinship" seem to overcome our written laws.

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Happened to Otto Zehm in 2006 in Spokane. He was a Downs person. or maybe: http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress...ger-holyfield/

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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    SNIP And, as Guslinger said, cops protect each other. Don't exactly know how to fix that; I think we have an inherent tribal respose built in. Of course, we must hold those with "power" over us to a higher standard. But "tribalism" and "kinship" seem to overcome our written laws.
    Not really criticizing, just using RR's post as a starting point.

    I strongly object to being "we"-ed into membership in such a group.

    Also, if certain police do have a strong "tribal response" the error is theirs since the rest of the people in their jurisdiction are also their "tribe". In fact, they took an oath to look after their tribe. And, regularly enjoy the benefits of the public-relations campaign regarding protecting and serving their tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    My only question is how six police officers could not subdue one unarmed man in a reasonable manner.

    http://on.msnbc.com/oGfU3d
    My recently departed Dad told us a story about a fox and a rabbit---

    Goes like this, Why did the rabbit get away from the fox?
    Fox is running for dinner and rabbit is running for LIFE!

    It is all about perception and motivation. Don't matter how crazy or irrational the thought is but IF YOU THINK YOU'RE FIGHTING FOR YOUR LIFE, YOu ARE fighting for your life!

  17. #17
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverrat10k View Post
    I remember reading that thread. Helluva nice rant.

    I was trying not to "cop bash" too badly. The incident is sickening, and the officers ARE murderers.

    And, as Guslinger said, cops protect each other. Don't exactly know how to fix that; I think we have an inherent tribal respose built in. Of course, we must hold those with "power" over us to a higher standard. But "tribalism" and "kinship" seem to overcome our written laws.
    Thank you, There is a large discontent in U.S. and how twisted law and law enforcement has become. It's up to us to weather the storms and to keep lighting the fires whenever possible. We will either win or become a totalitarian state, I will fight the latter to the best of my ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Happened to Otto Zehm in 2006 in Spokane. He was a Downs person. or maybe: http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress...ger-holyfield/
    Again, sickening or the Spokane cop who killed the preacher on his own property last year.

    I was doing research hermannr, and stumbled across some of your posts in officer.com and the horrible disregard for law and natural rights they showed, you showed more respect and restraint than I would have, but did a good job defending what is right.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    In the news again...

    Article.

    This time, "Veth Mam, on Friday filed a federal complaint alleging officers used excessive force and falsified their police reports after arresting him. Mam, 35, was acquitted by a jury earlier this month on charges of assault, battery and resisting arrest, in part because of cell phone video depicting his own arrest."

    Dear Fullerton and other police, sheriff, and law enforcement peoples: STOP LYING. When you lie under oath, you will get caught, and you may go to jail, particularly if we have anything to say about it.

    Guess what? We have something to say about it.

    From the article:

    "It's a very friendly place, it's kind of low-key and because this has happened now that's all that anybody knows about us," said Michael Ritto, president of the Fullerton Downtown Business Association.
    Mr. Ritto, you call cops beating innocent people to death a "very friendly place?" Oh, I see you have a financial interest in "portraying what happened quite differently than it really happened." We call that "lying," Mr. Ritto!

    If you or other cities who stand to loose a lot financially find that unappetizing, I suggest you retrain your law enforcement employees in the common skills of Serving and Protecting. You might begin by ensuring they're well-versed on the Constitutional rights of all citizens, such as due process. If you were unaware that "due process is the legal principle that the government must respect all of the legal rights that are owed to a person according to the law," (Source) then you're not qualified to hold your position and should step down immediately, before someone else dies at the hands of the government employees who're supposed to protect them, not murder them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There is a large discontent in U.S. and how twisted law and law enforcement has become.
    Much of the problem involves town/city management who willingly turn blind eyes to what's going on with their law enforcement. As far as they're concern, so long as law enforcement "gets 'er done," they're unconcerned about such things as rights violations, and they can distance themselves from the issue, allowing the wayward officer or two to take the fall.

    It's up to us to weather the storms and to keep lighting the fires whenever possible. We will either win or become a totalitarian state, I will fight the latter to the best of my ability.
    Central to that is taking the entire city to task, as often by financial means as is possible. They're trying to make money, improve their city, and many members of city government have lost the ability to think about things in terms other than money. Thus, when they cross the line, we need to respond in ways which matter to them most: Monetarily. We need to make their negligence SO expensive that other cities wake up and realize if they fail to ensure their own law enforcement is fully trained to respect all a citizen's rights at all times, that it'll be so costly as to be ruinous to the city's future.

    Personally, I think it would also be appropriate to donate such awards, less legal and personal expenses associated with obtaining the award, to funds set up for survivors of these victims.
    Last edited by since9; 08-22-2011 at 04:22 PM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Happened to Otto Zehm in 2006 in Spokane. He was a Downs person. or maybe: http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress...ger-holyfield/
    That is an excellent site to keep track of the Gestapo in your city. Any follow up on action against them in this case?
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  20. #20
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Not really criticizing, just using RR's post as a starting point.

    I strongly object to being "we"-ed into membership in such a group.

    Also, if certain police do have a strong "tribal response" the error is theirs since the rest of the people in their jurisdiction are also their "tribe". In fact, they took an oath to look after their tribe. And, regularly enjoy the benefits of the public-relations campaign regarding protecting and serving their tribe.
    Guess I just meant "we" as in humans. Most people, IMO, are strongly compelled to identify with a group. Be it work or play, we have an urge to fit in somewhere. Gun guys hang with gun guys, car people, church people; you tend to socialize most with those that share your views, background, income, etc.

    The question is, why have we let this particular club get out of control? And what is the best means of returning policing to constitutionality? Education is the obvious answer, and I consider many on this board educatiors.
    Last edited by riverrat10k; 08-24-2011 at 10:52 PM.

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