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WA Fish and Wildlife proposal - ban all loaded vehicle carry

amlevin

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It proposes to amend RCW 77.15.460 to:



If they only make that amendment, we're good, because 77.55.460 currently defines firearm as

I see this as the "nose of the camel". If there isn't a specific exclusion for Pistols carried with a CPL expect problems. Not "If", just "When".

Why not just spell it out in plain language? Could it be that they want some "weasel room"?
 

amlevin

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Read 9.41. Pistols ARE firearms.

My point exactly. If All Firearms are barred by WDFW "rules" that will include pistols. I seriously doubt that some "Parker Williams" (the dufus cop in the TV series "In the Heat of the Night") will be listening to any argument that "WDFW only meant Rifles and Shotguns" when you are stopped.
 

jt59

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I see this as the "nose of the camel". If there isn't a specific exclusion for Pistols carried with a CPL expect problems. Not "If", just "When".

Why not just spell it out in plain language? Could it be that they want some "weasel room"?

I don't disagree at all, and suggested exactly that the fix would be to include a reference to 9.41.050 in the "exemptions" portions of the proposed change, right after the notation about exempting police and retired police officers and he said he would review it.

Keep in mind that this is also proposed 2012 legislative changes, so we'll be able to address it with amendment and at public hearing in the upcoming legislative sessions too.....but as with this, it will require folks (and more than one) to show up to testify.
 

deanf

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My point exactly. If All Firearms are barred by WDFW "rules" that will include pistols. I seriously doubt that some "Parker Williams" (the dufus cop in the TV series "In the Heat of the Night") will be listening to any argument that "WDFW only meant Rifles and Shotguns" when you are stopped.

We're not talking about rules. Notice that it's an RCW that is being discussed. Criminal law. Must be passed by both houses and signed by the governor. Not an agency rule . . .

"WDFW only meant Rifles and Shotguns" - invalid argument. It's not WDFW; it's the intent of the Legislature. The rifles and shotguns proviso is written into current law and no one is talking about changing it.

Wasted energy worrying about non-existent issues.
 

Dave_pro2a

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There are some real optimists here.

Of course this is anti-gun activity. It was the "wildlife" jerks that tried to ban lead ammo. It was the wildlife jerks that tried to eliminate existing ranges. Their goal is to... ban guns via any means possible.

Believe other wise if you want, but if you do then I have a bridge I want to sell you, and a cherry 2005 Honda Accord that my grandmother bought brand new and only drove to church on Sunday.
 

ak56

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Read 9.41. Pistols ARE firearms.

Not for the purposes of 77.15.460.

I corrected a small typo in my previous post, but 77.15.460, the RCW in question, defines within itself that a firearm is "a rifle or shotgun". A definition anywhere else, such as 9.41, has no bearing on 77.15.460.
 

gogodawgs

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For all those trying to follow this....

[h=2]RCW 77.15.460[/h][h=1]Loaded firearm in vehicle — Unlawful use or possession — Penalty.[/h]
(1) A person is guilty of unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle if:

(a) The person carries, transports, conveys, possesses, or controls a rifle or shotgun in or on a motor vehicle; and

(b) The rifle or shotgun contains shells or cartridges in the magazine or chamber, or is a muzzle-loading firearm that is loaded and capped or primed.

(2) A person is guilty of unlawful use of a loaded firearm if the person negligently shoots a firearm from, across, or along the maintained portion of a public highway.

(3) Unlawful possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle or unlawful use of a loaded firearm is a misdemeanor.

(4) This section does not apply if the person:

(a) Is a law enforcement officer who is authorized to carry a firearm and is on duty within the officer's respective jurisdiction;

(b) Possesses a disabled hunter's permit as provided by RCW 77.32.237 and complies with all rules of the department concerning hunting by persons with disabilities.

(5) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall not be considered loaded if the detachable clip or magazine is not inserted in or attached to the firearm.
 

Trigger Dr

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Not for the purposes of 77.15.460.

I corrected a small typo in my previous post, but 77.15.460, the RCW in question, defines within itself that a firearm is "a rifle or shotgun". A definition anywhere else, such as 9.41, has no bearing on 77.15.460.

Yes, under the current version of 77.15.460, but the revision does NOT specify rife or shotgun, instead it says "FIREARMS"
 

Dave_pro2a

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Probably best to fight the root of this new anti-gun weed, rather than argue legal semantics.

If they pass the new reg, it will be twisted to reach as far as possible.
 

BigDave

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I agree with many here on being cautious moving ahead on this, where there it appears to be a rough draft to change the RCW with out spelling it out in detail and there are those who will say what they want to take a path of least resistance.

On the surface, their desire is to restrict firearms from motor vehicles regardless of intent.

There is a house bill presented by Rep Charles Ross last session that did not go any where yet dealing with carry on snow mobiles where no weapon can be carried. I think it was HB 1400 which I got the ball rolling on this last year.
Also note that the Department of Fish and Game have made notations in the regulations acknowledging to carry a loaded firearm for self defense while hunting but is not to use it to dispatch or take an animal with.

We still face an uphill climb in getting laws passed as to the make up of Olympia Legislatures to make sweeping changes but on the other hand I understand the other side has an up hill run to change anything as well concerning firearms.

I think Charles Ross is a good one to take on these issues he is very willing to address the issues and has good staff that are very knowledgeable, we need more like him.
 

sudden valley gunner

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We need to repeal most laws and quit adding more.

[h=1]ARTICLE I - DECLARATION OF RIGHTS[/h]
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired,.....
 

Dave_pro2a

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We need to repeal most laws and quit adding more.

[h=1]ARTICLE I - DECLARATION OF RIGHTS[/h]
SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired,.....

Double agreed.

Washington State Constitution said:
RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired
 

DCR

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Look to history for some perspective

Aporoximately 15-20 years ago, most states in the Northwest had statutes in the Fish/Game/Wildlife sections that were blatantly unconstitutional, and they got their hands slapped for it in court. Most of these laws purported to create a legal presumption that anyone carrying an uncased firearm in the field shall be deemed to be hunting, and therefore subject to all the Fish/Game/Wildlife laws.

People OC'ing, whether handguns or long guns, were automatically subjected to LEO and Fish/Game/Wildlife officer contact and harassment based on the law, and were frequently charged with various and sundry offenses like "hunting without a license" or the like, even though they were just out plinking, hiking, camping, ATV'ing, etc.

Fish/Game/Wildlife officers lost what they considered to be one of their most powerful investigative tools - the ability to, upon seeing anyone with a weapon on their person or in their car, detain, question, search (with or without a warrant - yes, administrative agencies have a different standard that frequently allows the ability to search without a warrant within their administrative capacity, but there's not time or space to go into this warrant exception in sufficient detail), cite, and arrest anyone with a weapon.

And they're intent on bringing it back, slowly, incrementally, and they hope quietly.

Be very afraid that they're even touching firearms laws. One of the principles of statutory construction (the way judges are supposed to read and interpret laws) says that all laws are to be considered together, and on the same level. So, the pre-emption law is considered at the same time, and on the same level, as the new proposed law - and unless they have blatant conflict, are considered equally valid. Basically, if the new law doesn't blatantly (in the wording) conflict with the pre-emption law, then it's perfectly valid.

That means your OC in the car/truck/ATV, whether handgun or long gun, can be a criminal offense IN SPITE OF THE PRE-EMPTION STATUTE!

Contact your legislators to kill this bill immediately - if you don't, you're allowing bureaucratic and LEO convenience to override your RKBA.

Oh, and yes, I am an attorney, and a former prosecutor who worked closely with game officers often, and was almost universally disliked by them because I dismissed or refused to prosecute BS cases when they brought them, and supported the amendment (in my home state then) of the law that got rid of the presumption that carrying a firearm in the field equaled hunting.
 
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deanf

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So, the pre-emption law is considered at the same time, and on the same level, as the new proposed law - and unless they have blatant conflict, are considered equally valid. Basically, if the new law doesn't blatantly (in the wording) conflict with the pre-emption law, then it's perfectly valid.

Thanks for your input.

I believe any mention of Washington's preemption law in this discussion is invalid.

The preemption law only applies to municipal corporations - and a limited number of them at that. The preemption law does not apply to the State. The State cannot preempt itself.

The proper argument is a Constitutional one.
 

Bill Starks

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so did anyone attend this meeting? what was said?

There needs to be some clear distinction between hunting and just driving down the highway, what on earth F&W has to do with the latter escapes me.
Gary Locke, gave the power to all commissioned LEO the ability to write tickets outside of their normal jurisdiction. IE: You go speeding past a Spokane cop in King county and he can still write you a ticket. I've seen F&W with folks pulled over for speeding as well out on Hwy 101.
 

BigDave

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Thanks for your input.

I believe any mention of Washington's preemption law in this discussion is invalid.

The preemption law only applies to municipal corporations - and a limited number of them at that. The preemption law does not apply to the State. The State cannot preempt itself.

The proper argument is a Constitutional one.

I disagree on the issue of State Preemption only applies to Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities.
State laws are made in the legislature not with a State Agency. A State Agency has the power to regulate their department operation but they do not have the authority to supersede or make law.
The is a proposal for legislation ie
WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND WILDLIFE
2012 LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS
2012 Agency-Request Legislation
To attack this I agree we need to address the issue with our representatives that State Preemption and WA ST CONST. ART 1 SEC 24 applies here.
 

deanf

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A State Agency has the power to regulate their department operation but they do not have the authority to supersede or make law.

True. In this case they are asking representatives to sponsor the making of law. A law which must weave it's way throught the legislative process like any other law. The non-validity of the preemption law (in this case) has nothing to do with who asked for the new law to be considered.

The State cannot preempt itself. That would be a legal absurdity.
 
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