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Thread: How exactly is "printing" legal under Florida laws?

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    Regular Member Scouts_Out's Avatar
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    How exactly is "printing" legal under Florida laws?

    I was hoping that some of the members of this forum who are more educated about guns laws in Florida, could explain to me how "printing" is not illegal. This is because yesterday, as I walked into the local Quiznos, a police officer asked for my CWL after seeing the huge bulk on my 3 o'clock. My Glock 19 was completely covered by my t-shirt but I was wearing a Blackhawk Serpa holster which made the gun stick out pretty far. After giving me back my license, he told me that I wasn't supposed to carry that way, you know, printing. I told him that as far as I understood, printing was not illegal but he kept saying that for it to be considered "concealed", one could not be to tell that the individual was carrying, at all. We kept going back and forth and I soon realized it wasn't gonna go anywhere, so I said "roger, sir" and walked away, which is honestly what I should've done from the beginning instead of trying to explain. I don't disagree that printing is completely legal, just wanna be better informed in the event of another encounter, which I'm sure will happen. Thank you in advance.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouts_Out View Post
    I was hoping that some of the members of this forum who are more educated about guns laws in Florida, could explain to me how "printing" is not illegal. This is because yesterday, as I walked into the local Quiznos, a police officer asked for my CWL after seeing the huge bulk on my 3 o'clock. My Glock 19 was completely covered by my t-shirt but I was wearing a Blackhawk Serpa holster which made the gun stick out pretty far. After giving me back my license, he told me that I wasn't supposed to carry that way, you know, printing. I told him that as far as I understood, printing was not illegal but he kept saying that for it to be considered "concealed", one could not be to tell that the individual was carrying, at all. We kept going back and forth and I soon realized it wasn't gonna go anywhere, so I said "roger, sir" and walked away, which is honestly what I should've done from the beginning instead of trying to explain. I don't disagree that printing is completely legal, just wanna be better informed in the event of another encounter, which I'm sure will happen. Thank you in advance.
    Cop was wrong. Printing is not and has never been unlawful in Florida.

    Per §790.001 FS, “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

    Was this Miami-Dade PD? Did you get the officer's name?
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    Regular Member Ironside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Cop was wrong. Printing is not and has never been unlawful in Florida.

    Per §790.001 FS, “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

    Which begs the question of what is "un-ordinary" or "non-ordinary" sight of another person ?

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Gotta wonder this LEOs thought processes. 'OK, this guy is carrying concealed in such a way that he doesn't care if anyone knows he has a big Glock in a Serpa on his belt. Guess I better stop and permit and ID him because he could be a legal citizen, you never know'. /sarcasm

    Meanwhile, actual crime is happening down the street but he's too busy IDing normal citizens to notice.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Which begs the question of what is "un-ordinary" or "non-ordinary" sight of another person ?
    There is a full analysis on this topic in FL case law. I'll find the reference tomorrow.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    We need open carry in Fl so freaking bad. 90 degrees at 10'oclock at night and we don't have OC. F this.

    Basically, there is a case that said a bulge could be anything. Even if they think it looks like a gun. You just can't have part of the firearm exposed too.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I suppose "printing" with a firearm works like wearing a pair of Speedo's as opposed to wearing board shorts.
    Someone might be able to discern what you're packin', but as no one see's it you're legal.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 08-07-2011 at 10:48 AM.

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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    I suppose "printing" with a firearm works like wearing a pair of Speedo's as opposed to wearing board shorts.
    Someone might be able to discern what you're 'packin'', but as long as no one sees it, you're legal.
    OK, now that's an interesting analogy for sure!

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouts_Out View Post
    I was hoping that some of the members of this forum who are more educated about guns laws in Florida, could explain to me how "printing" is not illegal. This is because yesterday, as I walked into the local Quiznos, a police officer asked for my CWL after seeing the huge bulk on my 3 o'clock. My Glock 19 was completely covered by my t-shirt but I was wearing a Blackhawk Serpa holster which made the gun stick out pretty far. After giving me back my license, he told me that I wasn't supposed to carry that way, you know, printing. I told him that as far as I understood, printing was not illegal but he kept saying that for it to be considered "concealed", one could not be to tell that the individual was carrying, at all. We kept going back and forth and I soon realized it wasn't gonna go anywhere, so I said "roger, sir" and walked away, which is honestly what I should've done from the beginning instead of trying to explain. I don't disagree that printing is completely legal, just wanna be better informed in the event of another encounter, which I'm sure will happen. Thank you in advance.
    Keep carrying on like you are, you are legal and more informed than Law Enforcement. Unfortunately you were not able to quote the law this time, but next time you'll be ready.

    “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member Scouts_Out's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Cop was wrong. Printing is not and has never been unlawful in Florida.

    Per §790.001 FS, “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

    Was this Miami-Dade PD? Did you get the officer's name?
    It was Hialeah PD. I didn't get his name but I remember him being a Sergeant. It was my first time dealing with a situation like that so I got a little bit nervous. I've had my permit for over 4 years but I have always been real careful not to print believing it was illegal. It was only after joining this forum that I learned otherwise. I also do it from time to time, print, to prove that banning open carry is dumb and that law abiding citizens with guns on them are not a danger to society.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouts_Out View Post
    It was Hialeah PD. I didn't get his name but I remember him being a Sergeant. It was my first time dealing with a situation like that so I got a little bit nervous. I've had my permit for over 4 years but I have always been real careful not to print believing it was illegal. It was only after joining this forum that I learned otherwise. I also do it from time to time, print, to prove that banning open carry is dumb and that law abiding citizens with guns on them are not a danger to society.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Sean had PM'd you on this.
    Rich
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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Print as much as you want as a matter of fact, wear the smallest tightest shirt you can and open carry you're mags. I am more afraid of what I can't see then what I can see. Printing has never been an issue nor has it ever been illegal in Florida so I suggest you do it as much as you can.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    We need open carry in Fl so freaking bad. 90 degrees at 10'oclock at night and we don't have OC. F this.
    Hello from Northeast Texas; 89F at 0300, after a solid week of record breaking temps, and no relief in sight.

    I hope I never need a reload, because I haven't carried anything more than a 2" 5-shot .38 since March.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach1chris View Post
    Print as much as you want as a matter of fact, wear the smallest tightest shirt you can and open carry you're mags. I am more afraid of what I can't see then what I can see. Printing has never been an issue nor has it ever been illegal in Florida so I suggest you do it as much as you can.
    +1

    I'm now printing such that everyone can tell I have a gun, it just looks like I'm trying to hide it, which I think is "scarier" for the sheeple than honest OC. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to exploit this angle with our brilliant politicians in Tallahassee.
    Last edited by 77zach; 08-07-2011 at 09:08 AM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    +1

    I'm now printing such that everyone can tell I have a gun, it just looks like I'm trying to hide it, which I think is "scarier" for the sheeple than honest OC. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to exploit this angle with our brilliant politicians in Tallahassee.
    OK still waiting on the horror flick "Printing in Florida" and the sequel "OC on the way to fishing".

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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    +1

    I'm now printing such that everyone can tell I have a gun, it just looks like I'm trying to hide it, which I think is "scarier" for the sheeple than honest OC. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to exploit this angle with our brilliant politicians in Tallahassee.
    Agreed.... This coming year would be a good idea to start calling politicians and just talk to the about the different angles. I believe Sen. Evers will be trying to change it again next year.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    OK still waiting on the horror flick "Printing in Florida" and the sequel "OC on the way to fishing".
    Well, I think I've got the "OC on the way to fishing" scenes under control.

    Three months of daily OC while fishing or shooting with no problems.

    The occasional "brief" display while refueling adds to the mix as needed.

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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    "I have a dream that my fellow citizen's will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their desire to Open carry but by the content of their character."

    Martin Luther King Jr.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Ironside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    There is a full analysis on this topic in FL case law. I'll find the reference tomorrow.

    So, is the case law forthcoming? Still waiting ...

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    "The term "ordinary sight of another person" means the casual and ordinary observation of another in the normal associations of life. Ordinary observation by a person other than a police officer..."
    ...
    "The critical question turns on whether an individual, standing near a person with a firearm or beside a vehicle in which a person with a firearm is seated, may by ordinary observation know the questioned object to be a firearm. The ultimate decision must rest upon the trier of fact under the circumstances of each case."
    Ensor v. State 1981


    "The officer observed a bulge in the suspect's waistband, which, from his training and experience, he believed was the butt of a pistol or handgun."
    ...
    "The gun in question was tucked in Regalado's waistband and covered by his shirt. Openly carrying a weapon is the opposite of carrying a concealed weapon, which is defined as to be "in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person."
    Regalado v. State 2009
    From these two cases it is clear that printing is legal as long as it is not obviously a gun to the untrained, casual, observer.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If I see this, I would suspect it to be a gun but most people would not even notice; and it could reasonably be his phone, PDA, or insulin pump.
    If you are printing and it could reasonably be something other than a firearm, you're fine.

    If you look like this...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yeah, you're doing it wrong. The untrained, casual, observer will take one look and say "GUN".

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    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post


    From these two cases it is clear that printing is legal as long as it is not obviously a gun to the untrained, casual, observer.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If I see this, I would suspect it to be a gun but most people would not even notice; and it could reasonably be his phone, PDA, or insulin pump.
    If you are printing and it could reasonably be something other than a firearm, you're fine.

    If you look like this...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yeah, you're doing it wrong. The untrained, casual, observer will take one look and say "GUN".
    I have personally been printing like the lower exampled for two year and sometimes worse than that and have never been question about it.
    yes. LEO have notice but never say nothing.
    Sometimes I even take off my t-shirt a drape it over my firearm and still nothing.
    I carry a S&W 40 model 411 in one of those Walker Texas Ranger Style holsters on my side and have never had a problem
    Last edited by Rick H; 08-09-2011 at 10:53 PM.
    God Bless America.

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    Violation of 1st Amendment Right

    The ban on open carry is not only a violation of the 2nd Amendment but the 1st Amendment as well. If we can legally carry a firearm, government has no business telling us we must keep it hidden. In Florida especially where it's hot, concealed carry of a firearm can physically be uncomfortable.

    For those who'd like to open carry, the next best thing is concealed carry with a button or t-shirt that states something like, "Lawfully Armed Citizen", or "Lawfully Concealing a Firearm".

    Here are my creations along those lines (computer graphics is a hobby of mine).

    http://www.zazzle.com/saturday_night...50475377405321

    http://www.zazzle.com/saturday_night...51974549523008

    If you do exercise your 1st Amendment right to peacefully wear words stating that you are lawfully armed, have your voice recorder with you and turned on in case your rights get violated.

    I'm a member of georgiapacking.org and OC my CZ-75B SA often in my state of Georgia.

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil1979 View Post
    The ban on open carry is not only a violation of the 2nd Amendment but the 1st Amendment as well.
    That's another reason this "law" in Fl is so offensive to me. It's no different than them telling me I can't put a political bumper sticker on my car. Everyone would have a cow if they required a license to display bumper stickers, much less ban it. When you OC, you express your appreciation of the right to bear arms and celebrate what little freedom we have left.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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