Let's talk ammo. What do you carry?

hvtopiwala said:

i carry winchester 9mm+p bullets in my m&p and hornadys critical defense for my 45. question for u guys though, i recently had to use my m&p with the 9mm +p hollow points, and when i shot my front door the bullet continued to travel through my door into the door across the hall. i thought hollow points were supposed to stop? lol

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That sounds like a very serious situation... I hope nobody was hurt. Did you record the event in the "True Tales of Self Defense" section of our forum? If so I'm interested in reading the thread.

Yes, hollowpoints are designed to expand and stop, but they are designed to do so in specific substances. Most commonly this is the soft tissue of an animal or human. That's why ballistic jelly is engineered to match the characteristics of human tissue. And even when travelling through/into soft tissue, it takes a while for the bullet to expand and to lose all of its velocity. When many HPs are fired into a thin piece of metal or plywood they commonly cut a hole and keep going without much expansion because they aren't designed to expand upon impacting a hard surface. 9mm is a fast load to begin with, and a +P load is even faster. It sounds like the load you've chosen to carry provides more penetration that you desire.

One last thought... the use of "lol" at the end of what sounds like an account of a self defense shooting is a little disturbing.

Hollow points are designed to expand when they hit a mostly liquid substance. Think of it this way. Water is an incompressible substance, so when a shockwave goes through it, the full force of the wave is going to hit whatever is in the immediate vicinity of the explosion. That's why fishing with dynamite is so effective, or why dropping an M-80 in a water filled container is going to do more damage to the container than if it were empty.

It's difficult to relate this to wood, but realize that wood is very porous, and is therefore compressible. If you take a hammer to a piece of wood, you put a dent in the wood-the wood doesn't get longer to make up for the loss in volume. The air inside the wood is displaced.

Now think of the hollow point in the bullet as a container. If that container is filled with water (or watery flesh), and the bullet continues to travel into watery flesh, this action is going to attempt to compress the flesh. However, the bullet is designed to give way, which it does. If you fill that cup up with wood, running in to more wood is just going to compress the wood, ejecting the air out of it.

TL;DR: wood is compressible, flesh is not. wood can't transfer energy to the bullet in sufficient amounts to deform it.

This is why one should take a serious look at their home defense weapon if OP is an issue. You can have the best deforming bullet in the industry, but if it's coming from a .357 magnum, it's going to go through several walls before it loses its energy-even if it does deform. A .45, IMO would be the ideal HD round (ignoring shotguns), as it has sufficient stopping power, but is also a slow round with a large surface area, making it less likely to penetrate as many walls. I'll stick with my 9mm until I can afford either-I don't live in an apartment or have kids.

cbpeck said:

That sounds like a very serious situation... I hope nobody was hurt. Did you record the event in the "True Tales of Self Defense" section of our forum? If so I'm interested in reading the thread.

Yes, hollowpoints are designed to expand and stop, but they are designed to do so in specific substances. Most commonly this is the soft tissue of an animal or human. That's why ballistic jelly is engineered to match the characteristics of human tissue. And even when travelling through/into soft tissue, it takes a while for the bullet to expand and to lose all of its velocity. When many HPs are fired into a thin piece of metal or plywood they commonly cut a hole and keep going without much expansion because they aren't designed to expand upon impacting a hard surface. 9mm is a fast load to begin with, and a +P load is even faster. It sounds like the load you've chosen to carry provides more penetration that you desire.

One last thought... the use of "lol" at the end of what sounds like an account of a self defense shooting is a little disturbing.

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I'd say that was more of a nervous laughter.

I use 230 grain FMJ for general target shooting and practice in my .45 (1911) (TulAmmo, Fiocchi, Remington UMC), and Hornady Critical Defense, or Magtech JHP for daily open carry ammo in my mags.

I don't always carry the 1911 because it is sooo heavy at 2 lbs, 10.5 oz and on a 120lb frame like mine that accounts for a lot of strong side lean, lol ;o). But, I have to agree with the email poster in Sept. 2011 Guns&Ammo that said stop complaining about the weight of a gun that can potentially save your life! So I suck it up because that is very true.

I use 129 grain copper-plated Fiocchi FMJ for target/practice in my .38 super auto, and will be getting some JHP from Able Ammo to fill my personal protection ammo void with the .38 Super. I carry the .38 super which is an all steel frame but still a lot lighter (it feels) than the 1911. But I love the 1911 for it's frame and the .45 round for stopping power. Guess I need to find and purchase a lighter, yet accurate and reliable .45 to carry daily.

Dang, I thought .380 was kind of scarce when I first bought a .380 in May, eventhough it is now readily available (compared to 09-2010); but now I get this .38 Super and some ammo/gun sites do not carry it AT ALL! Guess I will be saving all the brass I can catch and getting this guy to reload for me, which should save me a bit on market price. I will need to build up my .38 super and .45 stash to at least 1,000 rounds each to feel comfortable.

Anything with soft lead and a hollow point, jacketed in copper.

hvtopiwala said:

i carry winchester 9mm+p bullets in my m&p and hornadys critical defense for my 45. question for u guys though, i recently had to use my m&p with the 9mm +p hollow points, and when i shot my front door the bullet continued to travel through my door into the door across the hall. i thought hollow points were supposed to stop? lol

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Why did you shoot at your door? If there is a door between me and the BG, there is no threat. Yes, HP will expand. If your round went into the next door, it means you live in an apartment. Those doors are pretty flimsy. I hope your legal troubles are minimal. But anyway Hornady Critical Defense is what I carry.

.45 R-P hollowpoints,. My old boss handed me a couple said if your gonna be carrying that here put these in it. Next time I go in for ammo going to grab some gold dots and cci shot shells are on the list too.

I just went back and read my post on page one (#5) and boy did I screw up a sentence. Hope it didn't mislead anyone or show that I don't know what I'm talking about. For reference, here is that sentence corrected:

"For .40S&W, I use Federal 165gr HST in a Glock 23 or its 155gr variant in shorter barrels."

I had written 154gr instead of 165gr and 135gr instead of 155gr. I know better... and I wasn't smoking the cheap stuff (don't do that anyway).

SovereignAxe mentioned wood and bullet performance. When hitting a fair amount of wood, a hollow point bullet tends to deform rather than expand, but that deformity can include expansion. The thing is, you don't know how it's going to deform and what direction it will take if and when it exits the wood.. and of course whether or not it will still be sufficiently effective against a human target once exiting. Too many variables.

Years ago, I ran some tests shooting into 2x4's I had nailed upright, separated by around three inches. The two cartridges I was testing were the Remington Core-Lock (I thing 170gr) .30-30 rifle round and a handload for my Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum which was a Sierra 240gr JHC (Jacketed Hollow Cavity) over 23 grains of 2400 Hercules. The .30-30 penetrated six 2x4's, hitting the seventh. The .44 Magnum penetrated seven 2x4's.

How was the .44 Magnum able to outdo the .30-30 rifle round? Velocity and weight. The .44 was moving at a slower velocity which also slowed down expansion because material in front of it did not compress as quickly (thereby as densely) as did the rifle round which expanded more quickly. I know of a test like this against slaughter cows and the rifle was a .30-06. The .44 Magnum penetrated an average of four inches further into the animal. All shots were in the head.

What this means for people interested in self defense loads is several things. Heavier bullets tend to penetrate deeper. Hollow point designs are not guaranteed to expand every time. You never really know how a given load is going to act in a human target.

I carry Federal Hydrashok 230gr .45acp's in the summer, and Winchester PDX-1 230gr .45acp's in the winter...

I'm not stuck on any particular loading. I typically cycle my ammo every 6 months. Right now I'm carrying 230gr Speer Gold Dots in my 1911 (my EDC). I've got a Glock 23 loaded with 140gr Corbon DPX & a SR40 with 155gr Hornady XTP.

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SovereignAxe said:

This is why one should take a serious look at their home defense weapon if OP is an issue. You can have the best deforming bullet in the industry, but if it's coming from a .357 magnum, it's going to go through several walls before it loses its energy-even if it does deform. A .45, IMO would be the ideal HD round (ignoring shotguns), as it has sufficient stopping power, but is also a slow round with a large surface area, making it less likely to penetrate as many walls. I'll stick with my 9mm until I can afford either-I don't live in an apartment or have kids.

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Even a .22lr will go through multiple layers of dry wall. Pretty much nothing that is going to be effective at stopping a human will fail to penetrate many walls.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Found this idea in a personal and home defense magazine a few months ago.

get in your car and drive to the local sheriffs office. find the nearest desk clerk/officer and ask for a receipt displaying what ammo your local deputies use in their guns.

then, should you have to shoot anybody in defense of yourself or others, and the prosecuting attorney (if it comes to that) attempts to bash your ammo, you and your lawyer can say "i/my client used ammunition approved by a law enforcement agency, not some homecookede "super-deadly-designed-to-kill" concoction" and that should be the end of that. (and you should have presented your sheriffs receipt as evidence of course)

And of course before you carry anything make sure it works.

165gr Federal HST in my Springfield XD sub-compact (.40S&W). Some online research (go ahead, chuckle) showed that these did well in tests, and they're supposedly a great improvement over the Hydra-Shoks I used to carry. Plus they were $33/50 when I bought them a few years ago, whereas every other JHP I could find was >$1 per round.
230gr Winchester PDX-1 in my RIA 1911 (.45ACP, of course!). Mostly because this was easily available, reasonably cheap (again, compared to other JHPs), and is said to be very good.

I don't get too hung up on the ammo I carry... there are more opinions and tests out there than I have time to sift through. What I carry will feed and fire consistently in my pistols, and will hopefully expand reasonably well in a target if the worst happens.

And just for the hell of it... my home defense loadout is currently Winchester Super-X #3 buck (20ga) in a Remington 870 20 gauge.

silver said:

Found this idea in a personal and home defense magazine a few months ago.

get in your car and drive to the local sheriffs office. find the nearest desk clerk/officer and ask for a receipt displaying what ammo your local deputies use in their guns.

then, should you have to shoot anybody in defense of yourself or others, and the prosecuting attorney (if it comes to that) attempts to bash your ammo, you and your lawyer can say "i/my client used ammunition approved by a law enforcement agency, not some homecookede "super-deadly-designed-to-kill" concoction" and that should be the end of that. (and you should have presented your sheriffs receipt as evidence of course)

And of course before you carry anything make sure it works.

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This is a pretty good idea. Only problem with my application is that the city cops use .45 USPs, and I don't have a .45. THP uses .357 SIG Glocks, and I certainly don't have a .357 SIG. I'm not sure what the SO uses but I'm sure the brand/model line would be good enough.

I'm really looking for some 147gr Gold Dots, but nobody around me seems to carry them. I've looked in several places and have only been able to find Hornady Critical Defence and Winchester PDX-1. Those are only available in 115gr and +P loadings (winchester apparently has a 147gr load for PDX-1, but I haven't seen them either), and I'd rather something heavier than the lightest load, but don't really want to use +Ps since my Walther technically isn't rated for it (It's used in several organizations in a few NATO countries, and I'm sure some of them use 9mm NATO in it, but idk for sure).

4angrybadgers said:

165gr Federal HST in my Springfield XD sub-compact (.40S&W). Some online research (go ahead, chuckle) showed that these did well in tests, and they're supposedly a great improvement over the Hydra-Shoks I used to carry. Plus they were $33/50 when I bought them a few years ago, whereas every other JHP I could find was >$1 per round.
230gr Winchester PDX-1 in my RIA 1911 (.45ACP, of course!). Mostly because this was easily available, reasonably cheap (again, compared to other JHPs), and is said to be very good.

I don't get too hung up on the ammo I carry... there are more opinions and tests out there than I have time to sift through. What I carry will feed and fire consistently in my pistols, and will hopefully expand reasonably well in a target if the worst happens.

And just for the hell of it... my home defense loadout is currently Winchester Super-X #3 buck (20ga) in a Remington 870 20 gauge.

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This is the conclusion I have come to as a result of this thread's discussion. I'd like to try some factory loads so that I can get some more if I ever need to and either my grandfather can't give me some or I don't have access to his reloading equipment. The loads he's made for me shoot splendidly, so I'll stick with them for the time being, but it'll be nice to know what factory loads shoot the best for me if I ever need to buy some.

45 ACP 230 gr Federal Hydra-Shok out of a Glock 21

I carry Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr. in a G19

Hornady 200gr. XTP.

In G19/ Kahr PM9 (9mm): I switch between a few different loads (depending on what's available/cheapest): Hornady Critical Defense 115 grain, Speer 124 gr +p, Winchester Ranger 124 +p, Corbon 125 grain +p, Federal 124 grain HST. I pretty much use whatever hollow point cycles best in my gun (I'm not adverse to using 147 grain either, if they cycle). Stick to the major brands and you'll be okay (again, as long as it cycles in your gun).

In G33 (.357 SIG): Winchester Ranger 125 Grain, Speer 125 Grain, Hornady 147 Grain XTP, Corbon 125 Grain.

In G36 and/or 1911 (.45 ACP): I don't worry too much. Whatever major brand I'm able to buy at the moment: Winchester Ranger 230 grain +p, Speer GD 200 grain +p, Remington Golden saber (bonded) 185 grain +p or not, Corbon 185 or 230 grain +p, Hornady Critical Defense 185 grain, Speer GD 185 or 230 grain.

il probably just use the ammo i plan to use for hunting.

its been a while sence i looked at the info on them, so correct me if im mistaken, but i believe these were the stats on them.
its a bonded 230gr +p load advertised as pushing around 1100 fps from a 5 inch barrel so maby around 1000fps out of my 4.something inch barrel?

seems to me like it should do the trick.

"These are more warm then warm heaters.."



rly? Would they be warmer than, say, a 230 grain TMJ entering your failed marketing attempt's head?