Wife and Conceal Carry

I need some suggestions. No, IK and MKEgal I won't do that.

My wife is interested in getting a conceal carry permit when they become available. She has not had hunters safety training so will have to take a commercial course. I am hoping online courses will be approved but right now that looks iffy. I, however, have a concern with most of the commercial courses I have researched. Most seem to be obsessed with the legal consequences of firearm self defense. I don't mean to imply that those consequences are not serious but it seems to be the prevailing attitude of the instructors I have talked with. Some using words similar too "In Wisconsin if you shoot someone which is in the opinion of the courts not justified your a$$ is gra$$". While I know those words are true, at least until we have "stand your ground" legislation, I am concerned with the impact they will have on my wife. I have been married to her for 50 years. I know how she thinks and perceives things. I'm concerned that if the rubber ever hits the road that the memory of those words will give her second thoughts about using deadly force, seconds that could risk her life. With 25 years as a FFL holder, part time gunsmith and tenure on this forum I feel I am qualified to instruct her on the risks involved with using deadly force. Explain it without giving her indelible doubt of using a firearm for self defense at the moment she may need to. So to cut to the quick. I am looking for an instructor in the Central Western part of Wisconsin that will not use "scare tactics" as part of their instruction. Any recommendations?

Hello Mr. Nemo,

May I recommend that you schedule your wife for the NRA's Basic Pistol Course. 1) If I am reading AB-35 correctly, any NRA Course that results in an NRA Certificate being issued will qualify as training for a WI Concealed Weapons Permit. and 2) no discussions of legal or tactical matters takes place in the course. This is a basic firearms safety and handling course that is specific to handguns and goes well beyond any Hunter Safety Course. NRA courses are ideally suited to those who have never handled a firearm and/or those with marginal or limited experience. However, even experienced shooters often appreciate the refresher.

I will be returning to WI to conduct the UT Concealed Carry Course and NRA Basic Pistol Course. I should know by the end of the week whether I will be returning over the Labor Day weekend or in mid- to late September.

We're developing a "ladies only" class. Should be up an running within a week or two.

NRA basic pistol is good too.

and 2) no discussions of legal or tactical matters takes place in the course.



For the Newby.....that's just scary & irresponsible... That's why I tell people the diff between NRA classes & AACFI classes...in the AACFI classes you get everything, Safe handling instruction & the legal aspects..not just showing people how to hold a pistol & pull a trigger... when people apply for that permit they will be signing their name on a application form that requires them to know the Wisconsin Law & signing your name to it means that you do know the law ....& just having the NRA certificate does not satisfy that requirement... I hope the state does not approve the NRA course because Everyone that spends money on a CCW permit class should be taught the LAW & what happens to you when you have to shoot someone in self defense.

Most states that have a "required" education requirement for obtaining a concealed carry license/permit are focusing on the legal aspects of handgun ownership and use. The powers that be do not care very much if you know which end the bullets come out of. (Yeah, some require you to show you can hit the target most of the time from something like 7 or 10 yards, but most folks can do that without much trouble.)

What you are talking about is handgun use training, where your wife will learn how to use te handgun safely and within the confines of the law. Check out some of the folks who are currently offering "tactical" training and see what their first-level courses offer. If you are savvy you might get your wife to talk it up amongst her friends and aquaintences so that you can offer a ready-made group to whoever you find to increase their interest in doing a session for more-mature students. (Maybe some of the menfolk in your agegroup might be just as interested as your wife is about getting that CCW permit and have the same concerns.)

I'll return you to the Wisconson folks for specific suggestions of who to contact.

stay safe.

Glock34 said:

.... I hope the state does not approve the NRA course because Everyone that spends money on a CCW permit class should be taught the LAW & what happens to you when you have to shoot someone in self defense.

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"Should" is simply your personal opinion. The intention of the training is simply ensure that the person applying for the permit is familiar with the safe handling and use of firearms... That's it... I hope the DOJ follows the letter of the law and approves ALL training so long as it is:

A firearms safety or training course that is conducted by a national or state organization that certifies firearms instructors.

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I don't see anything in the Statute which requires MANDATORY training regarding the laws or the legal implications of using deadly force. These things are up to the individual to seek OPTIONAL training on... I believe that all responsible persons will do so.

Interceptor_Knight said:

"Should" is simply your personal opinion. The intention of the training is simply ensure that the person applying for the permit is familiar with the safe handling and use of firearms... That's it... I hope the DOJ follows the letter of the law and approves ALL training so long as it is:
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I don't see anything in the Statute which requires MANDATORY training regarding the laws or the legal implications of using deadly force. These things are up to the individual to seek OPTIONAL training on... I believe that all responsible persons will do so.

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of course it's just my opinion...

Glock34 said:

and 2) no discussions of legal or tactical matters takes place in the course.



For the Newby.....that's just scary & irresponsible... That's why I tell people the diff between NRA classes & AACFI classes...in the AACFI classes you get everything, Safe handling instruction & the legal aspects..not just showing people how to hold a pistol & pull a trigger... when people apply for that permit they will be signing their name on a application form that requires them to know the Wisconsin Law & signing your name to it means that you do know the law ....& just having the NRA certificate does not satisfy that requirement... I hope the state does not approve the NRA course because Everyone that spends money on a CCW permit class should be taught the LAW & what happens to you when you have to shoot someone in self defense.

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Glock34, all the laws that you are required to know will be part of the application. One has to read it all and sign that they know and understand the laws so you do not have to take a class for that. I have not taken the class and I know all the laws I need to know.

The laws on self defense will change when AB69 is passed. I speculate that the DOJ is putting off making applications available with inside knowledge that AB69 will pass and become law by 11/1/11.

BROKENSPROKET said:

Glock34, all the laws that you are required to know will be part of the application. One has to read it all and sign that they know and understand the laws so you do not have to take a class for that. ...

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From what I understand, text of the "laws" themselves will not be on the application but you will have to sign indicating that you understand all applicable laws...

Glock34 said:

Everyone that spends money on a CCW permit class should be taught the LAW & what happens to you when you have to shoot someone in self defense.

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Why? The laws and consequences of using force to defend yourself don't only apply to people with guns. They apply to everyone, whether your raise your fist, let alone a gun, against another person. You ought to know this stuff long before you buy your first gun.

There ain't no class or course you can take that's going to turn you into a gunfighter. Takes a hell of a lot more than that.

Interceptor_Knight said:

From what I understand, text of the "laws" themselves will not be on the application but you will have to sign indicating that you understand all applicable laws...

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this is what i was trying to get at...thanks for posting it !

Why not sign her up for a hunter safety course cheap, safe, easy. Then get her some frist rate hand gun training.

Interceptor_Knight said:

From what I understand, text of the "laws" themselves will not be on the application but you will have to sign indicating that you understand all applicable laws...

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Respectfully disagree. Maybe not on the application itself, but in the application documents.

175.60 (5)(a) 2. A statement explaining self−defense and defense of others under s. 939.48, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read and understands the statement.
3. A statement, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name, to indicate that the applicant has read and understands the requirements of this section.
6. A statement of the places under sub. (16) where a licensee is prohibited from carrying a weapon, as well as an explanation of the provisions under sub. (15m) and ss. 943.13 (1m) (c) and 948.605 (2) (b) 1r. that could limit the places where the licensee may carry a weapon, with a place for the applicant to sign his or her name to indicate that he or she has read and understands the statement.

I see the anti's "logic" has worked its way into some peoples thoughts here. No, without any training required AT ALL, blood does not flow in the streets on the grand State of Washington...been that way since statehood...actually we went backwards in 1961 (black panther knee jerk reaction) when they BEGAN a must issue no training required, CPL program. Before that there were no permits required OC or CC. After '61, CPL was required for CC only.

A law abiding citizen, is a law abiding citizen, training; or not, permit; or not. If you are in fear of your life you do not think, you react, even if a bit more slowly at 70 than at 20. If you know what is "right" and what is "wrong" (I mean as per your free relations with you fellow man. not per some written law) you are good to go. You may have some difficulty because of some DA's ego, but if you did "right" the jury will not go with that DA.

Consider a few years back....Bernard Goetz in NYC...after shooting those 4 boys He was not conviced of assault, or attempted murder, however, unfortunately, he was convicted of possessing a firearm without a permit. The moral of the story is: If you are in danger, protect yourself and don't worry about it. If you feel the least bit hesitant, don't shoot...honest gut reaction is usually pretty good for normal law abiding citizens.

BROKENSPROKET said:

The laws on self defense will change when AB69 is passed. I speculate that the DOJ is putting off making applications available with inside knowledge that AB69 will pass and become law by 11/1/11.

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Whooo Hoo - I hope you are right. Castle doctrine with "stand your ground" language would make SB-93 as amended a much better law and will make Wisconsin a much safer place to visit or to live in.

As for those who want to see tactical training and extensive legal training in every course, whose side are you on? Is tactical training a good idea? - Yes ! Should it be mandatory? - NO ! Will reasonable people seek to begin training to meet their own personal status (newbie - beginner - intermediate - advanced)? - I hope so. Remember, we are the folks who want "Constitutional Carry" in Wisconsin (training optional - permit optional).

Here is a thought for you given that the National Rifle Association (NRA) is the nation's only nationally recognized firearms training organization that certifies it's instructors using a format that is standardized and that is consistent across the USA and the world. The scenario is a defensive shoot that results in the bad guy being alive at the end and suing because the defendant left him injured for life and not dead. (This is based on an actual suit against my partner (Rock County Sheriff's Office) in 1980 after an armed bad guy survived a police shooting.) This is before POST (Police Officer Standardized Training).

Attorney: Were you trained by an instructor certified by the NRA?

Defendant: (Fill in the blank - and in doing so, the outcome of the civil trial). That incident was one of many that led to "standardized Police Officer Standardized Training" or POST.)

Every State that I know of that requires training will ONLY accept training conducted by the US Military, an instructor who is certified under the P.O.S.T. Certification program, or training that is conducted by a firearms instructor certified by the National Rifle Association. There is a reason for that. (Exception: Utah - must be POST or NRA Certified - AND - attend the UT class in SLC to get the UT BCI CFP Instructor Certification.) Examples: NV qualification shoots must be witnessed by an NRA Certified Pistol Instructor - FL requires either Military, POST, or NRA Pistol Course - AZ now allows Military qualification with a pistol as proven on a DD-214, any pistol qualification under POST, and of course, any NRA Course to qualify for firearms training. No State that I know of will allow a course conducted by "Joe's Gun Shop", unless Joe is an NRA Instructor.

I am not trying to promote the NRA. Indeed, I am trying to promote the concept that Constitutional Carry is what we expect throughout the United States of America. That means training is a matter of personal choice, permits are a matter of personal choice, and whether some folks on this forum like it or not, the NRA is the ONLY organization that is recognized by all 50 states as being competent to certify Firearms Instructors.

Captain Nemo said:

I need some suggestions. No, IK and MKEgal I won't do that.

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Huh? I don't even know what I'm being preempted from suggesting.

I'm concerned that if the rubber ever hits the road that the memory of those words will give her second thoughts about using deadly force, seconds that could risk her life.

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And that's why I'm leery of people who emphasize their opinions, rather than explaining what the law says is legal self-defense & helping the other person to understand
a) what they're allowed to do, & under what conditions
b) what the penalties can be if a court finds they overstepped

There's a difference between "your donkey is fodder" and "the maximum penalty in WI for manslaughter is X, so be sure you can articulate, through your lawyer, exactly what led you to be in fear for your life or bodily integrity".

With 25 years as a FFL holder, part time gunsmith and tenure on this forum I feel I am qualified to instruct her on the risks involved with using deadly force.

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No offense, but the first 2 have no relation to knowing laws about self-defense, or the aftermath thereof,
and reading posts has very little relation unless you've clicked through & read the laws, and more importantly understood them. Discussion here can help clarify things, but you have to read & understand on your own.

I am looking for an instructor in the Central Western part of Wisconsin that will not use "scare tactics" as part of their instruction.

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I wish I knew someone to recommend.

No offense MKEgal, but your post answered your first question. Picking fly poop out of the pepper. As to my qualifications to know he consequences of using deadly force. Many people have no idea what it entails to be a FFL holder. First you must know the myriad of federal laws. Second you must know all the BATF interpretations of those laws, any FFL holder will tell you those are plentiful and sometimes questionable but never the less lawful. Third you must be aware of the firearm laws of numerous states in the event you may sell a long gun to someone out-of-state. As a minimum you must know the state laws in the contiguous states. Many of those laws, federal and state, cover much more than just the legalities of the sale. They also cover consequences of mis-use of firearms. A scrupulous firearms dealer with a FFL will know those consequences. I received many questions regarding consequential use of deadly force. So don't presume that I or any other FFL holder does not know the laws and consequences regarding use of deadly force in this state or any number of other states.

For one example: Wisconsin has a good samaritan law 939.48(4). It allows one to use deadly force to protect a 3rd person from imminent danger of great bodily harm or death. Some other states forbid interference by a third party. In fact a person doing so can be subject to prosecution. A good FFL holder will be aware of that.

As to my tenure on this forum (2007). In spite of the wrangling and name calling this forum has been a treasure trove of information concerning state law and case law. There are many intelligent people on this forum, including yourself, that have been gracious enough to share their knowledge and experiences. One can not help but become educated on the the numerous firearm laws and the courts interpretation of those laws. I believe I have demonstrated in my posts that I have a modicum of knowledge in that regard.

Finally I was talking about MY qualifications not those of others.

Firearms Instructor:

I think you are right. The more I look into it the more interested I get in signing the wife up for the DNR hunter safety course. I notice on the DNR web site that classes will start pretty much statewide during late August Early September.

I believe there is a NRA certified female trainer by the name of Annette Olson, with her husband(also a NRA-certified trainer) that are in the central western part of WI. I don't have their contact information, but I know Annette is on the Wisconsin Carry group on Facebook. They are busy trying to keep the republicans in office who are up for recall, but I'll PM you her facebook profile so you can go about contacting her. Maybe someone on her who knows her can provide better information than I can.

Just to be certified for the CCW lic hunter safety is the way to go. Cheap easy.

That doesn't mean seeking other training isn't a good idea. Tactis,law, firearm selection, use of force issues ect are all things a good instructor can help a person with.