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Thread: Leased public property rights. Hypothetical situation.

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    Leased public property rights. Hypothetical situation.

    Hypothetical situation is as follows:

    I have a petting zoo. This petting zoo is on land leased from the state gov't on a 20 year lease.

    Everything has been fine for the first 15 years, but this year some idiot shoots my $20,000 Al Paca for spitting on him. Insurance covers this, but my rates go up by several thousand per year.

    Seeing as times are tough and I'm not getting the business I used to, I can't afford the higher insurance. I work out a deal with the insurance company. Ban guns and I get my old rate back.

    Does the fact I'm leasing public property cause me to fall under preemption? Or do I have private property rights allowing me to ban guns?

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSzerdi View Post
    Hypothetical situation is as follows:

    I have a petting zoo. This petting zoo is on land leased from the state gov't on a 20 year lease.

    Everything has been fine for the first 15 years, but this year some idiot shoots my $20,000 Al Paca for spitting on him. Insurance covers this, but my rates go up by several thousand per year.

    Seeing as times are tough and I'm not getting the business I used to, I can't afford the higher insurance. I work out a deal with the insurance company. Ban guns and I get my old rate back.

    Does the fact I'm leasing public property cause me to fall under preemption? Or do I have private property rights allowing me to ban guns?


    Since I'm not a lawyer... it would seem to me that you only have (as in the ability to exercise) as many private property rights as your lease/contract/and the law allow. Sometimes the law trumps leases and contracts since an illegal lease/contract is......... illegal.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 08-07-2011 at 02:19 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    lol.

    That said, I would be too busy laughing at the guy who shot the alpaca for spitting on him to worry about anything else.

    If you get a zoo going, PLEASE put video surveillance on the Alpaca area, I would love to see that on youtube. Priceless, absolutely priceless.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-07-2011 at 02:38 PM.

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    Facepalm

    Its a hypothetical...

  5. #5
    Regular Member Greyh Seer's Avatar
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    IANAL -


    1st: Since you are leasing public property, you cannot circumvent the rights of the public on that property as set out in the US constitution:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    However, it is apparent in the US, that this is an area where the SCOTUS has been very careful to define as narrowly as possible, thus allowing many unconstitutional laws on the books...so, I guess we can't count on the US constitution...(though, I believe if you had the money to take such a case to the SCOTUS, you would win...

    2nd: Since you are leasing public property, you cannot circumvent the rights of the public on that property as set out in the MI constitution:

    6 Bearing of arms.
    Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
    Again, it seems apparent that one must take a case all the way to the SCOM in order to actually get anyone in the government to realize this right...





    Your example says you are leasing directly from the state (and not a local unit of government). If you were leasing from a local unit of government:

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

    Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    In a nutshell, I believe the US constitution, the MI constitution and MI law makes it clear that one cannot keep me from bearing arms on public land, despite its function. But the way this country works is with lawyers and money...

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    In the State of Michigan, on public property, IMHO no. Unless you can find some other law that grants private property rights to someone leasing public property then no you may not. And if you don't like it, get your zoo on private property and ban firearms and lose mine and many other peoples business, hypothetically.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  7. #7
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I posted this in another thread, I could have easily posted it here too.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh....php?p=1589052
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Then sue him hypothetically.
    Or Hypothetically threaten to put him in jail for a very hypothetically long time if he dosn't pay up....

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    In the State of Michigan, on public property, IMHO no. Unless you can find some other law that grants private property rights to someone leasing public property then no you may not. And if you don't like it, get your zoo on private property and ban firearms and lose mine and many other peoples business, hypothetically.
    You do know that this also answers the Calhoun county fair ground issue too don't you......
    Last edited by Sheldon; 08-09-2011 at 12:18 AM.

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    Arts Beats and Eats was held on public property ran by a private organization and charged an entrance fee, yet Royal Oak city attorney advised the city council firearms could NOT be legally banned.

    Same thing happened with WYCD using Hart Plaza for Downtown Hoedown and Muskegon Summer Celebration in Muskegon. More examples of firearms NOT able to be banned on public property even though festivals were ran by private organizations.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    st clair offshore races/riverfest did the same thing and i just ignored the "no guns" signs and OCd past multiple LEO agencies and past the rent-a-cops at the entrances (4 times). no one said a word.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    this whole thing got me thinking so i sent off an email to the 6 email addresses listed on the event website:

    To whom it may concern:I attended St Clair Riverfest event this year and was disappointed to see that, in violation of Michigan state law, there was a "no firearms" sign posted at the entrances. This "rule" was not listed on your event website with the other rules.
    This topic has been beaten to death in the news over the past couple years and it is widely understood in Michigan that even "private" events held on public property are not permitted to set rules that conflict with state law. Last year, Royal Oak was advised by their city attorney that they were not legally allowed to ban firearms from the Arts Beats and Eats Festival. More recently, the city of Detroit notified the organizers of the Downtown Hoedown that they, too were not allowed to ban firearms.
    I would imagine that part of your agreement with the City of St Clair included wording to the effect that you would abide by all state laws. Here is the applicable law which you attempted to violate:
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xre...e=mcl-123-1102
    Furthermore, I openly carried my sidearm past your entrance "security" 4 times and was not stopped in any way. This shows the effectiveness of a mere sign in preventing firearms. Within the festival I also walked past and was noticed by at least 4 law enforcement agencies who did not attempt to stop me.
    I invite your replies if you have any questions for me. I encourage you to remove the offending signs from all future events whether held in St Clair or elsewhere.
    Respectfully,
    Dan Edinger
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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