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Leased public property rights. Hypothetical situation.

TheSzerdi

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
287
Location
Melvindale, Michigan, USA
Hypothetical situation is as follows:

I have a petting zoo. This petting zoo is on land leased from the state gov't on a 20 year lease.

Everything has been fine for the first 15 years, but this year some idiot shoots my $20,000 Al Paca for spitting on him. Insurance covers this, but my rates go up by several thousand per year.

Seeing as times are tough and I'm not getting the business I used to, I can't afford the higher insurance. I work out a deal with the insurance company. Ban guns and I get my old rate back.

Does the fact I'm leasing public property cause me to fall under preemption? Or do I have private property rights allowing me to ban guns?
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
Hypothetical situation is as follows:

I have a petting zoo. This petting zoo is on land leased from the state gov't on a 20 year lease.

Everything has been fine for the first 15 years, but this year some idiot shoots my $20,000 Al Paca for spitting on him. Insurance covers this, but my rates go up by several thousand per year.

Seeing as times are tough and I'm not getting the business I used to, I can't afford the higher insurance. I work out a deal with the insurance company. Ban guns and I get my old rate back.

Does the fact I'm leasing public property cause me to fall under preemption? Or do I have private property rights allowing me to ban guns?
:)

Since I'm not a lawyer... it would seem to me that you only have (as in the ability to exercise) as many private property rights as your lease/contract/and the law allow. Sometimes the law trumps leases and contracts since an illegal lease/contract is......... illegal.
 
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stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
lol.

That said, I would be too busy laughing at the guy who shot the alpaca for spitting on him to worry about anything else.

If you get a zoo going, PLEASE put video surveillance on the Alpaca area, I would love to see that on youtube. Priceless, absolutely priceless.
 
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Greyh Seer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
58
Location
Michigan
IANAL -


1st: Since you are leasing public property, you cannot circumvent the rights of the public on that property as set out in the US constitution:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However, it is apparent in the US, that this is an area where the SCOTUS has been very careful to define as narrowly as possible, thus allowing many unconstitutional laws on the books...so, I guess we can't count on the US constitution...(though, I believe if you had the money to take such a case to the SCOTUS, you would win...

2nd: Since you are leasing public property, you cannot circumvent the rights of the public on that property as set out in the MI constitution:

§ 6 Bearing of arms.
Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

Again, it seems apparent that one must take a case all the way to the SCOM in order to actually get anyone in the government to realize this right...





Your example says you are leasing directly from the state (and not a local unit of government). If you were leasing from a local unit of government:

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

In a nutshell, I believe the US constitution, the MI constitution and MI law makes it clear that one cannot keep me from bearing arms on public land, despite its function. But the way this country works is with lawyers and money...
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
In the State of Michigan, on public property, IMHO no. Unless you can find some other law that grants private property rights to someone leasing public property then no you may not. And if you don't like it, get your zoo on private property and ban firearms and lose mine and many other peoples business, hypothetically.
 

Sheldon

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
556
Location
Battle Creek, ,
Then sue him hypothetically.

Or Hypothetically threaten to put him in jail for a very hypothetically long time if he dosn't pay up....

In the State of Michigan, on public property, IMHO no. Unless you can find some other law that grants private property rights to someone leasing public property then no you may not. And if you don't like it, get your zoo on private property and ban firearms and lose mine and many other peoples business, hypothetically.

You do know that this also answers the Calhoun county fair ground issue too don't you......
 
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scot623

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
1,421
Location
Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
Arts Beats and Eats was held on public property ran by a private organization and charged an entrance fee, yet Royal Oak city attorney advised the city council firearms could NOT be legally banned.

Same thing happened with WYCD using Hart Plaza for Downtown Hoedown and Muskegon Summer Celebration in Muskegon. More examples of firearms NOT able to be banned on public property even though festivals were ran by private organizations.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
st clair offshore races/riverfest did the same thing and i just ignored the "no guns" signs and OCd past multiple LEO agencies and past the rent-a-cops at the entrances (4 times). no one said a word.
 

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
this whole thing got me thinking so i sent off an email to the 6 email addresses listed on the event website:

To whom it may concern:I attended St Clair Riverfest event this year and was disappointed to see that, in violation of Michigan state law, there was a "no firearms" sign posted at the entrances. This "rule" was not listed on your event website with the other rules.
This topic has been beaten to death in the news over the past couple years and it is widely understood in Michigan that even "private" events held on public property are not permitted to set rules that conflict with state law. Last year, Royal Oak was advised by their city attorney that they were not legally allowed to ban firearms from the Arts Beats and Eats Festival. More recently, the city of Detroit notified the organizers of the Downtown Hoedown that they, too were not allowed to ban firearms.
I would imagine that part of your agreement with the City of St Clair included wording to the effect that you would abide by all state laws. Here is the applicable law which you attempted to violate:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xr...g.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-123-1102
Furthermore, I openly carried my sidearm past your entrance "security" 4 times and was not stopped in any way. This shows the effectiveness of a mere sign in preventing firearms. Within the festival I also walked past and was noticed by at least 4 law enforcement agencies who did not attempt to stop me.
I invite your replies if you have any questions for me. I encourage you to remove the offending signs from all future events whether held in St Clair or elsewhere.
Respectfully,
Dan Edinger
 
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