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OC at Cashman Field

wrightme

Regular Member
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Oct 19, 2008
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Fallon, Nevada, USA
What I am getting at is this. Public facilitys are sometimes leased to private events, this helps with maintenence costs etc. whether a concert at the Henderson pavillion or a gunshow at Cashman, the promoter signs a contract. Once they pay, and adhere to the rules of the contract the facility is under the promoters direct control. this limits the liability of the political subdivision in question.

Now to the ugly part. In the rules that the promoter signs there most likely will be a clause that says there will be no loaded firearms on the premises, or something to that effect, unless he is willing to come up with a billion dollar umbrella. that I believe is what we are fighting, and I do not think we can win that on its face.

Since we are dealing directly with a private party, we can encourage them to either rent out one of the vacent Vons stores in town, or take our business elswhere. But I do not think our Fourth is being violated. We voluntarily go down there, same as a rock concert, or Harley run, you will be asked to open your jacket and wanded for weapons, do I like it? no.

If the promoter is in charge of the event, and signs such agreement, there should NOT be LE performing the security to check. Once the promoter takes control under the agreement, unless that promoter calls LE in to handle an incident, such control should be a function of the promoter.
 

wrightme

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Fallon, Nevada, USA
Although, for various events around town (i.e.; Conventions, Fights, etc.) , the promoter will hire Metro for LEO activities such as traffic control. You will also see LEO's escorting the fighters to the ring so I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that Metro would be hired by a promoter for a Cashman event.

"Hire Metro," or "hire officers?"

In other words, is the city being contracted to perform Law Enforcement activity, or are the officers being hired to perform security guard functions?
 

wrightme

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Fallon, Nevada, USA
They pay Metro to provide officers, so the overtime that the officers are earning is not on the taxpayer's dime.

Then, the activities that the officers are engaged in are NOT paid for by the taxpayers, so they should NOT be enforcing law, but would then be acting as agents of the promoter. Running serial numbers does not fit that paradigm, IMHO.
 
2

28kfps

Guest
This is kind of working its way back to the original question are they enforcing a law or rules. If laws which one? It would appear most are thinking rules. To go along with what wrightme is saying it would appear they are using law enforcement to enforce a promoter or property rules not laws. If that is correct and a gun owner who is legally carrying can only be asked to leave if they choose not to follow their rules.
 

AnakinsKid

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
129
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
We do have precedent for police not being allowed to act as an agent of the venue.

http://wyominggunowners.org/opencarry-case/
In a nutshell: Mathew St. John paid and went into the movie theater to enjoy a movie and he happened to be wearing his holstered firearm in plain view, reacting to a call from the manager of the theater, the police physically removed him from the theater, disarmed him, searched him and removed from his person his identification.
...
Judge Black concluded that as a matter of law the police officers violated Mr. St. John’s Constitutional Fourth Amendment Rights because they physically seized and disarmed him.

If the police are hired by a venue as security, (as mentioned above) then they are acting as agents of the venue, but are still law enforcement. If they arrest or search anyone for violating venue rules (not laws), they're opening a legal can of worms, since they're being paid directly by their agency, as a paid service to the venue. They're still there as police officers, and must follow the same rules as always.
 

wrightme

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Fallon, Nevada, USA
We do have precedent for police not being allowed to act as an agent of the venue.

http://wyominggunowners.org/opencarry-case/


If the police are hired by a venue as security, (as mentioned above) then they are acting as agents of the venue, but are still law enforcement. If they arrest or search anyone for violating venue rules (not laws), they're opening a legal can of worms, since they're being paid directly by their agency, as a paid service to the venue. They're still there as police officers, and must follow the same rules as always.

So, each serial number check sounds like an illegal search.
 

timf343

Campaign Veteran
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Oct 3, 2007
Messages
1,409
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, United States
If the promoter is in charge of the event, and signs such agreement, there should NOT be LE performing the security to check. Once the promoter takes control under the agreement, unless that promoter calls LE in to handle an incident, such control should be a function of the promoter.

I would tend to think that any attempt by the city or county to enter into such an agreement in which firearms are regulated would be a clear and blatant violation of the relevant state preemption statute. Sounds like we need to NRS 239 a copy of the agreement.
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
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1,231
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Then, the activities that the officers are engaged in are NOT paid for by the taxpayers, so they should NOT be enforcing law, but would then be acting as agents of the promoter. Running serial numbers does not fit that paradigm, IMHO.

Wrightme:

My Atty. friend would call that a wormhole, and a nice one at that.. I am giddy at your thought, and will do everything in my power to exploite this idea.
 

AnakinsKid

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
129
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
So, each serial number check sounds like an illegal search.

I've read from the California OC guys on here that some (or maybe just one) put tape over the serial numbers on their guns while OCing. That way, when they get stopped by an officer to do a "loaded weapon" check, the officers can't see the numbers to run them. They'd have to remove the tape, which would definitely constitute an unwarranted search.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
We do have precedent for police not being allowed to act as an agent of the venue.

http://wyominggunowners.org/opencarry-case/


If the police are hired by a venue as security, (as mentioned above) then they are acting as agents of the venue, but are still law enforcement. If they arrest or search anyone for violating venue rules (not laws), they're opening a legal can of worms, since they're being paid directly by their agency, as a paid service to the venue. They're still there as police officers, and must follow the same rules as always.

In that a movie theater is private property, I don't think the "venue" definition applies.

Further, this was not simply a matter of enforcing a rule vs a law, but rather the actions of the LEOs in that enforcement.

"Judge Black concluded that as a matter of law the police officers violated Mr. St. John’s Constitutional Fourth Amendment Rights because they physically seized and disarmed him."
http://wyominggunowners.org/opencarry-case/

Had they just caused him to leave or charged him with trespass they would have been no Constitutional violation. What am I missing here?
 
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