OC at Cashman Field

So I have learned A LOT in these past couple of weeks on this forum. So now I'm wondering about the Cashman Field gun shows. They have a sign on the outside of the building that such-and-such state law says no loaded firearms or weapons inside, or something to that effect. If I had realized then that I was going to ask about it, I would have taken much better notes, sorry.

So I can understand that there may be a state law at work here, which of course wouldn't be preempted.

But is it really kosher that they require you to submit your firearm at the door for registration and serial number check?

I am not clear on the laws for Cashman Field. It is not clear to me as to what they use to enforce their policy. However, I have in the past tried to open carry at the gun shows.

Each time I was directed to a table where there was Metro officers setting. The past norm was they would look at your firearm if it was loaded they would ask you to leave and store it locked up in your car, or empty it and bring it back which seams asinine sending people out into the parking lot to handle their loaded firearms. Once back with the empty firearm they would verify it is empty, put a zip tie through the action, and hand it back.

For some reason I cannot remember for sure if they did an ID, permit, or blue card check at that time. I do not believe they did. I would like to think I would have left before showing them anything. Other posters will correct me if I am wrong as to if they did ask. Of course, if one is going to purchase a firearm be ready to show a ID or two.

I should specify that I believe Cashman Field is owned by the State, though I find it odd that we can OC without hassle at the DMV at not at Cashman Field.

Also, today, the two guys doing the registration and ID checks were not wearing any kind of uniform. I know at some point in the past it was uniformed Metro LEO's doing these checks, but it's actually been a while since I bothered OC'ing at the gun show there. They did punch the numbers into a Panasonic Toughbook.

And for those who don't know, this is UOC on the premises during the gun show. They zip-tie your firearm before handing it back to you.

Since my county already has a handgun registration scheme, I'm not really having my gun de facto "registered" to me at this check. They are only verifying its registration. I still would, of course object if they have no reason to do so, but I need to be armed with information first. It is a well-established procedure to stand in line to have this registration check performed at these gun shows.

What do they do at the gun shows at the Las Vegas Sport Park, which I assume is privately owned?

Interestingly, they had a magnifying glass at the time and were trying to read the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame of a very old single-action revolver. They were thinking there was a digit that could have been a 9, so they were telling some guy that he MIGHT be able to take his gun home. Which makes me wonder what they do when they run across a old pre-1968 firearm that might not have a serial number.

They have ZERO reason to run your gun. What if you were a peson from any other county in NV or any other state that does not have the reg scheme? It really is one more notch in metros belt of control over the citizen. I would have told them to pound sand before I let them run my gun. And then I would have left. Keep in mind that anything you can get at the show you can get cheaper here in town from folks like new frontier or lock and load etc. No parking fee or entrance fee from them and they allow loaded open carry as well.

Vegassteve said:

They have ZERO reason to run your gun. What if you were a peson from any other county in NV or any other state that does not have the reg scheme? It really is one more notch in metros belt of control over the citizen. I would have told them to pound sand before I let them run my gun. And then I would have left. Keep in mind that anything you can get at the show you can get cheaper here in town from folks like new frontier or lock and load etc. No parking fee or entrance fee from them and they allow loaded open carry as well.

Click to expand...

Registration of course is only required of Clark County residents, so a resident of another county would be exempt. But you make a good point, would they still run the serial number if it would not be for the purpose of verifying a registration? And while they demand to see the blue registration card, they do not accept it as proof that the sidearm is currently registered to you and they run the number anyway.

As for them having "ZERO reason," are you able to state that as a matter of law? We are talking about a State run facility citing a state statute. As much as I am inclined to agree with you, and that it SHOULD be that way legally, I'd like to know for sure. What would happen if I gave my ticket to the ticket lady and when she told me I had to go to the gun check desk I just said "no thanks" and kept walking? And this test should be performed with both loaded and unloaded OC, depending on what the law actually reads. Has anybody tried to be a test case yet? I should have taken notes about what NRS was cited at the doors (which are posted there at all times, not just for gun shows, BTW.) Next time I drive through that part of town I will swing through the parking lot and take note.

Snow Jam was there last year but there was no gun check desk. And we aren't prohibited from OC'ing at the gun show, but told that we are restricted to UOC after a registration verification. The more you think about it, the more insane it seems. Maybe we form a line and swarm the door at the same time, refusing to submit to anything more than the law allows.

As for gun shows, I don't go there to buy things unless it is a old item that I don't run across at normal gun shops, it's mostly for the show. My most recent 1898 Krag rifle came from the Cashman gun show a couple years ago.

BTW, we probably know each other from ViMBAR or from the couple of times I've shot at the SubGun match. I recognize your handle from VegasShooters, I think. But there are a couple of Steves out there.

Here is what comes to my mind, you are right about the comparison between Cashman and the DMV to a point, however that would only be for a public Building that is being used to serve the public. Once that facility is temporarily leased to the gun show promoter, I think it would become his "house" so to speak (private business). I agree with Steve. Gun shows are not always the best deal.

MAC702 said:

As for them having "ZERO reason," are you able to state that as a matter of law? We are talking about a State run facility citing a state statute. As much as I am inclined to agree with you, and that it SHOULD be that way legally, I'd like to know for sure.

Click to expand...

They would not be able to just stop you on the street and do that for one thing. They have no RAS. There is no law on the books in this state or county that says they can check you like that. This is the continued trample of gun owners rights by this rogue sheriff. And there is ZERO requirement to have your blue card on you. I shred mine. Keep a couple for buying from a FFL so I dont have to wait. So they could demand all day from me a blue card and they wouldnt get one.

They're not running them to see if they are registered. They are running them to see if it's stolen. I like to mess with those guys. So one time I OC'ed my S&W j-frame with a full size Hogue grip on it. For those that don't know. The J-frame has the SN on the bottom of the butt and the Hogue covers it. So they called in to see if I did have a J-frame which I did. I usually walk away with some sort of lecher about how I should carry my blue card or some other nonsense.

Vegassteve said:

They would not be able to just stop you on the street and do that for one thing. They have no RAS. There is no law on the books in this state or county that says they can check you like that. This is the continued trample of gun owners rights by this rogue sheriff. And there is ZERO requirement to have your blue card on you. I shred mine. Keep a couple for buying from a FFL so I dont have to wait. So they could demand all day from me a blue card and they wouldnt get one.

Click to expand...

Well, technically, I don't HAVE to let them check me. I can choose to turn around and leave and not enjoy the gun show. So, it's a little different than a stop on the street with no RAS. BTW, what exactly does RAS stand for? I searched and of course only find the thousands of times we mention it, but not what it stands for. Context has told me the gist, but what exactly is it?

And while I have zero love for this sheriff, I'm pretty sure this policy predates him. However, I was especially concerned that the two guys doing the checks this time were not in any kind of uniform or identified in any way.

While I certainly agree the registration scheme is useless and burdensome, knowing that it is settled law (for now), why do we not have to have our blue cards on us like they say? Does it not specify that in the law? I agree it is absolutely silly for them to require to see your blue card, and then immediately ignore it and call in the numbers anyway.

The worst part about the registration scheme is that when I take a new handgun (say, one mailed to me on my C&R FFL), I have to walk the lady through all the numbers on the gun to make sure it gets registered correctly. The first card they write out is almost always wrong. Did you know I own a handgun chambered in 25mm? It says so on my registration card. It's actually a Yugo Tokarev in 7.62x25mm, of course. She also used the serial number on the slide, not the one on the frame which does not have the added letter. In the old days, when I took a handgun down, it was registered by a uniformed desk sergeant. Now it's a group of ladies who know nothing about firearms.

MAC702 said:

While I certainly agree the registration scheme is useless and burdensome, knowing that it is settled law (for now), why do we not have to have our blue cards on us like they say? Does it not specify that in the law? I agree it is absolutely silly for them to require to see your blue card, and then immediately ignore it and call in the numbers anyway.

Click to expand...

There is no law saying it must be carried. No where. That is just another example of these costumed men in blue or brown fooling the public.

MAC702 said:

Well, technically, I don't HAVE to let them check me. I can choose to turn around and leave and not enjoy the gun show. So, it's a little different than a stop on the street with no RAS. BTW, what exactly does RAS stand for? I searched and of course only find the thousands of times we mention it, but not what it stands for. Context has told me the gist, but what exactly is it?

Click to expand...

Well no it really is no different it is still a violation of your 4th Amendment rights. Unwarranted search. And as long as you allow them to do it they will. If you stand up and say no and turn around and leave, then call or write the owners of the gun show. Let them know why they didnt get your money. Call and write the dealers let them know why they didnt make a sale that day. If you do those things then you make a impact.

RAS= Reasonable articulate suspicion. Just going into a gun show is not RAS. What crime was committed? About to be committed? etc..

This is all actually pretty simple. It is a public facility (not affiliated with a school) so they have no right to stop you from entering with a loaded firearm on your hip. They can't show that you committed a crime, are committing a crime or are about to commit a crime, therefore they have no right to put so much as a finger on your property. Bottom line, they don't respect your human rights, don't give them your money.

TBG

If it is indeed a public facility, as opposed to a public owned facility. Why do we have to pay to get into our own building?

What I am getting at is this. Public facilitys are sometimes leased to private events, this helps with maintenence costs etc. whether a concert at the Henderson pavillion or a gunshow at Cashman, the promoter signs a contract. Once they pay, and adhere to the rules of the contract the facility is under the promoters direct control. this limits the liability of the political subdivision in question.

Now to the ugly part. In the rules that the promoter signs there most likely will be a clause that says there will be no loaded firearms on the premises, or something to that effect, unless he is willing to come up with a billion dollar umbrella. that I believe is what we are fighting, and I do not think we can win that on its face.

Since we are dealing directly with a private party, we can encourage them to either rent out one of the vacent Vons stores in town, or take our business elswhere. But I do not think our Fourth is being violated. We voluntarily go down there, same as a rock concert, or Harley run, you will be asked to open your jacket and wanded for weapons, do I like it? no.

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:

What I am getting at is this. Public facilitys are sometimes leased to private events, this helps with maintenence costs etc. whether a concert at the Henderson pavillion or a gunshow at Cashman, the promoter signs a contract. Once they pay, and adhere to the rules of the contract the facility is under the promoters direct control. this limits the liability of the political subdivision in question.

Now to the ugly part. In the rules that the promoter signs there most likely will be a clause that says there will be no loaded firearms on the premises, or something to that effect, unless he is willing to come up with a billion dollar umbrella. that I believe is what we are fighting, and I do not think we can win that on its face.

Since we are dealing directly with a private party, we can encourage them to either rent out one of the vacent Vons stores in town, or take our business elswhere. But I do not think our Fourth is being violated. We voluntarily go down there, same as a rock concert, or Harley run, you will be asked to open your jacket and wanded for weapons, do I like it? no.

Click to expand...

Make sense it would be more of a rule or contract issue than a law issue. However, it would appear they can spin their entrenched rules to support whichever side of the fence they stand. I was run out of Sheplers in Sam’s Town a year or so ago. I purposely went straight in from the parking garage to avoid the casino.

I e-mailed Sheplers main office, the stores can put in place their own rules however for the most part they follow the State laws. Since this Sheplers leases space from and is in a Sam’s Town, they said they have to adhere to Sam’s Town rules.

I do like the idea of trying to encourage the gun show promoters to rent from a gun carry friendly facility. Probably less of an uphill battle.

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:

What I am getting at is this. Public facilitys are sometimes leased to private events, this helps with maintenence costs etc. whether a concert at the Henderson pavillion or a gunshow at Cashman, the promoter signs a contract. Once they pay, and adhere to the rules of the contract the facility is under the promoters direct control. this limits the liability of the political subdivision in question.

Now to the ugly part. In the rules that the promoter signs there most likely will be a clause that says there will be no loaded firearms on the premises, or something to that effect, unless he is willing to come up with a billion dollar umbrella. that I believe is what we are fighting, and I do not think we can win that on its face.

Since we are dealing directly with a private party, we can encourage them to either rent out one of the vacent Vons stores in town, or take our business elswhere. But I do not think our Fourth is being violated. We voluntarily go down there, same as a rock concert, or Harley run, you will be asked to open your jacket and wanded for weapons, do I like it? no.

Click to expand...

Okay, this is along the lines of what I was thinking. Regardless, I am armed with more information now, and will be armed with even more information next time. I still like to go to gun shows a couple times a year for the window shopping. I will be finding out who the two guys in plain clothes were that were checking registrations.

Vegassteve said:

There is no law saying it must be carried. No where. That is just another example of these costumed men in blue or brown fooling the public.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I will be informing more people of this.

Most all dealings can be boiled down to "Power and Control". If you give them your money they have it. If you refuse to give them your money you wrestle from them their power over you and it puts you in control. When attendance dwindles and revenues dry up, P&C reverts to you, where it belongs. At this point you can make demands that meet your needs in which case as a business they will either meet them, or go out of business.
If Tread is correct, and I think he most likely is, then by the public (customers) putting pressure on the promoters, they the promoters, can then put pressure on the owner of the facility. Faced with losing continuing
revenue from the loss of the event, they might even change their "contract rules". If they don't, the facility sits idle. This is called the Free Market System and it works pretty well.

TBG

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:

But I do not think our Fourth is being violated. We voluntarily go down there, same as a rock concert, or Harley run, you will be asked to open your jacket and wanded for weapons, do I like it? no.

Click to expand...

I was thinking more along the lines of the 4th being violated in regards to the running of the numbers of the gun.

MAC702 said:

As for them having "ZERO reason," are you able to state that as a matter of law? We are talking about a State run facility citing a state statute. As much as I am inclined to agree with you, and that it SHOULD be that way legally, I'd like to know for sure. What would happen if I gave my ticket to the ticket lady and when she told me I had to go to the gun check desk I just said "no thanks" and kept walking? And this test should be performed with both loaded and unloaded OC, depending on what the law actually reads. Has anybody tried to be a test case yet? I should have taken notes about what NRS was cited at the doors (which are posted there at all times, not just for gun shows, BTW.) Next time I drive through that part of town I will swing through the parking lot and take note.

Click to expand...

If they cite a statute, the answer is in that statute. And, we don't have to prove it is legal, THEY have to prove it is not legal.