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Thread: Getting a Haircut While OCing

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    Regular Member Smurfologist's Avatar
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    Getting a Haircut While OCing

    I don't know if this has been asked and answered before; I apologize in advance if it has :-}

    If I were OCing in a barbershop and my barber put the long sheet around my neck, which covers my weapon, would I be in violation of the OC or CC laws of VA as written?!? I got my hair cut the other day and thought about this while I was there.

    Please let me know (this scenario is for those that OC and do not have a CCW). Thanks in advance and have a great day!
    The 2nd Amendment... brought to you by Beretta and the number 1791!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfologist View Post
    I don't know if this has been asked and answered before; I apologize in advance if it has :-}

    If I were OCing in a barbershop and my barber put the long sheet around my neck, which covers my weapon, would I be in violation of the OC or CC laws of VA as written?!? I got my hair cut the other day and thought about this while I was there.

    Please let me know (this scenario is for those that OC and do not have a CCW). Thanks in advance and have a great day!
    Well, here is the statute language, bold by me:

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308


    Looks to me like a gun hidden under a barber's cape would be hidden from common observation.
    Last edited by Citizen; 08-08-2011 at 02:55 AM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't think there is an answer to this question.

    The condition is obviously temporary, and due to the circumstances of the moment. The covering is for protective purposes, obviously small bits of cut hair would pose a risk to a gun, much like sand or other inclement weather circumstances. Everyone who was present at the time the hair cut began would know that the person was openly carrying. The person is not going to move from the chair until after the haircut is done, and the sheet is removed.

    There is a provision in the law for covering the gun in times of inclement weather, although that section is specifically aimed at hunting.

    The argument could be made that the spirit of the law allows for protection of a gun when it is reasonably believed that it is necessary. The letter of the law would seem to not allow for this particular circumstance. It is probably not reasonable for one to expect the law to explicitly cover every conceivable circumstance.

    The only way to get a definitive answer is to try it in court. No thanks, but it would be a very interesting case.

    Perhaps Peter Nap can put it on his long list of questions to ask the Attorney General!

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    SNIP The only way to get a definitive answer is to try it in court. No thanks, but it would be a very interesting case.
    It would be especially interesting for the defendant.

    You know, I gave up thinking government would play fair. Now, besides any other consideration I might give to a legal question, I also try to guess how a cop might use the statute to his advantage, regardless of what the statute actually says. How might an anti-gun cop play unfair?

    In this case, I think an anti-gun cop could run with it. Add an anti-gun magistrate and judge, here comes the fine, minimum.

    Remember all the grief about the guy who locked his gun in his console instants before exiting the vehicle right after an accident? The statute says "carries". Locking his gun in his console moments before leaving the vehicle is not "carries", but he ended up having to defend against charges.

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    Regular Member M-Taliesin's Avatar
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    Howdy Folks!
    While the law may be spelled out clearly enough, there is that whole issue of private property.
    The barber shop would be private property. If you haven't been asked to remove your sidearm, or stow it in your car, by the proprietor, I would guess your patronage while armed is acceptable to the barber. Being private property, I don't see what business a cop has coming onto private property to infringe on your 2a right.

    I do not know the language regarding private property in regard to carrying a sidearm in the jurisdiction being considered, but here in Colorado, there is language about folks who do not have a CCW being able to carry concealed on their own property or in their own home. It also applies when you are in the home of another if you are permitted by the resident to carry your sidearm. I do not recall language about doing so on a business, but just like another's home, you are on their private property with permission.

    This might be an interesting avenue to explore.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    OC to CC

    It doesn't matter that a barber shop is private property. If you are not in curtilage then you have just gone from OC to CC. If you go get a haircut make sure that you are carrying the CC card and a recorder. The law is very clear on this point, once your gun is covered and hidden (the law doesn't care that your barber hid it, you allowed it to happen) from common observation you are now CCing.

    Maybe a judge would have some sympathy and toss it based on circumstance and reason-ability but as the law is currently written you are guilty. Another reason for constitutional carry.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Taliesin View Post
    Howdy Folks!
    While the law may be spelled out clearly enough, there is that whole issue of private property.
    The barber shop would be private property. If you haven't been asked to remove your sidearm, or stow it in your car, by the proprietor, I would guess your patronage while armed is acceptable to the barber. Being private property, I don't see what business a cop has coming onto private property to infringe on your 2a right.

    I do not know the language regarding private property in regard to carrying a sidearm in the jurisdiction being considered, but here in Colorado, there is language about folks who do not have a CCW being able to carry concealed on their own property or in their own home. It also applies when you are in the home of another if you are permitted by the resident to carry your sidearm. I do not recall language about doing so on a business, but just like another's home, you are on their private property with permission.

    This might be an interesting avenue to explore.

    Blessings,
    M-Taliesin
    Which is why the law was cited above. Here's the money quote regarding private property:
    B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.
    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:
    1. Any person while in his own place of business;
    Which means that while the barber can CCW without a CHP in the shop, you can not.

    And while barber shops are clearly private property, they are also places of public accommodation, which means that there are several legal reasons why a cop might be able to come in "on official business" without first securing a warrant. The cop would not necessarily be there to specifically infringe on your 2A rights, but if, for example, while he was there on other business and observed you as you got out of the chair the "plain view" theory would probably hold up as to establishing probable cause to cite you for illegal CCW.

    For the paranoid amonst the crowd, I recommend you bring a clear plastic bag of some sort with you and cover your handgun with it after tucking the barber's drape behind it.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    yet another reason VA needs to join other states with constitutional carry.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    It doesn't matter that a barber shop is private property. If you are not in curtilage then you have just gone from OC to CC. If you go get a haircut make sure that you are carrying the CC card and a recorder. The law is very clear on this point, once your gun is covered and hidden (the law doesn't care that your barber hid it, you allowed it to happen) from common observation you are now CCing.

    Maybe a judge would have some sympathy and toss it based on circumstance and reason-ability but as the law is currently written you are guilty. Another reason for constitutional carry.
    While a bit messy, you could decline the drape.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    While a bit messy, you could decline the drape.
    Or get a clear plastic drop cloth from the hardware store, and have the barber use it to cover you.

    Seriously though unlike OC in a car, or in a booth at a restaurant, when covered by the barber drape it is now concealed, unless the drape is see through.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_shadow View Post
    Or get a clear plastic drop cloth from the hardware store, and have the barber use it to cover you.

    Seriously though unlike OC in a car, or in a booth at a restaurant, when covered by the barber drape it is now concealed, unless the drape is see through.
    Or you could tuck the drape behind your gun as he puts it on. Just keep your hand near it under the drape.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member Jay's Avatar
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    I never even gave this a thought I always go to the barber with my firearm, and I do no have a CCW permit. I figured as well private property owner doesn't care so it shouldn't matter. Just like if I were to conceal at my home residance it is private.
    "Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again"

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Similar Situations

    I was late reading the posts today, and Skid beat me to the "plastic bag/Virginia tuck" suggestion at the barbershop. But, that set me to thinking about similar situations which OCers might encounter, where the law is ... shall we say ... fuzzy:
    • The stall in a public restroom. My OC gun is certainly hidden from common observation, even though I have taken no action to conceal it, other than closing the stall door. The public can know that I am in there, but cannot see my gun. Is it or is it not concealed in the eyes of the law?
    • Same idea with the fitting room in a clothing store ... ones with slatted doors or pull curtains.
    I am sure that creative minds can come up with other situations like these two.

    Here is one for USER: If an element of being concealed is "hidden from common view", does that not imply that there must be a second party, who would be the "viewer"? Put another way, does the term "concealed carry" have any meaning, if there is no other person present from whom it could be concealed? If I am standing alone in a treeless pasture, and I have no CWP, and there is no person within eyesight, and I cover my gun, am I guilty of the offense?


    IANAL, but I loved "Paper Chase" and Professor Kingsfield and "skulls full of mush".
    Last edited by USNA69; 08-08-2011 at 09:59 PM. Reason: syntax error

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    I think this is really simple. You are not concealing, the barber is.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    If an element of being concealed is "hidden from common view", does that not imply that there must be a second party, who would be the "viewer"? Put another way, does the term "concealed carry" have any meaning, if there is no other person present from whom it could is concealed? If I am standing alone in a treeless pasture, and I have no CWP, and there is no person within eyesight, and I cover my gun, am I guilty of the offense?

    If you hide something, you know where it is hidden, but can you see it?
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    This is one of the reasons (technicalities like this) why i have my CHP, but OC.

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    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJEEPER View Post
    This is one of the reasons (technicalities like this) why i have my CHP, but OC.
    I'll second that sentiment. I open carry most of the time, probably 95%. There are a few places or situations where I CC, but that's for my convenience rather than the comfort of anyone else.

    The barber shop is one example of why I got my CC in the first place. I don't want to deal with any trouble that might arise should my weapon become covered, either by my actions or the actions of another.

    Getting my CHP, and submitting to the government scrutiny associated with applying for it, was worth it for me since I have neither the time nor money to "submit" to a court trial.


    Lawful, constitutional carry ANYWHERE for the win! Until then, my CHP has its purpose.

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    well, the truth is i got my CHP so i could carry into the buildings during Lobby Day.... but it is just another perk

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    I was late reading the posts today, and Skid beat me to the "plastic bag/Virginia tuck" suggestion at the barbershop. But, that set me to thinking about similar situations which OCers might encounter, where the law is ... shall we say ... fuzzy:
    • The stall in a public restroom. My OC gun is certainly hidden from common observation, even though I have taken no action to conceal it, other than closing the stall door. The public can know that I am in there, but cannot see my gun. Is it or is it not concealed in the eyes of the law?
    • Same idea with the fitting room in a clothing store ... ones with slatted doors or pull curtains.
    "If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation..." -- from 18.2-308(A) The key is "about his person," I think. The restroom stall or fitting room is not something you're wearing. They're just very small rooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    Here is one for USER: If an element of being concealed is "hidden from common view", does that not imply that there must be a second party, who would be the "viewer"? Put another way, does the term "concealed carry" have any meaning, if there is no other person present from whom it could be concealed? If I am standing alone in a treeless pasture, and I have no CWP, and there is no person within eyesight, and I cover my gun, am I guilty of the offense?
    I'm not user and don't purport to be his equal either. I just think I have your answers.

    Again from 18.2-308(A) -- "a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature." I think the key there is "observable." Your question of a presumed observer would be true if that word was "observed" instead. Like, "when it is observed but is of such deceptive appearance..."

  20. #20
    Regular Member Smurfologist's Avatar
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    Very Interesting Answers........

    Thanks to everyone for their answers. For the record, I have a CCW (VA and PA). But, this question just came to mind when I went to the barber shop to get a cut, shave, and wash. The owner and barbers have never had a problem with me carrying in their establishment, which is why I go there (on Fairfax Drive in the Arlington/Ballston area). I also OC most of the time (I make a point of doing so to support the cause).

    Everything that I heard made sense to me and I took it to heart. I grew up in Chicago and most cops (there are good cops in Chicago and they are in a class by themselves) there that I have had experience with, operate on what they believe to be the law (arrest first and let the courts figure it out); the Virginia cops that I have dealt with seems to only deal with people when there is no doubt (in their mind) that a crime has been commited (I know that other people have experienced something different). I say that to say that my experiences in Virginia have been good ones when it comes to carrying a firearm (except for getting kicked out of the Consolidated Theaters in Kingstowne after going there over 30 times and being harrased by 3 Alexandria cops in McDonalds after using the restroom).

    I love Virginia!! I would like it more if they had gun laws similar to VT, AZ, AK, and that other state that I missed (is it WY?!?) :-}

    I will do whatever I can to educate myself about the law and abide accordingly because I do not want to catch a case doing something stupid :-}

    Again, I want to thank everyone for their input. Stay safe!!
    The 2nd Amendment... brought to you by Beretta and the number 1791!!

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    Had my hair cut today. My stylist and I struck up quite a conversation as she buzzed my head to spec. When i stood up and went to have my hair washed (i usually pass, but was riding my motorcycle and didnt want hair bits in my helmet), she saw my XDm and asked if I had a gun (curious tone, not scared or anything). I explained that it was and talked to her about why i have it and how i pray to never have to use it again. She inquired about that when i told her about my incident at the bowling alley in Yorktown.
    She was very shocked to hear that something bad could happen in yorktown, which is such a nice place. I explained how bad people can migrate to good places, so you just never know. I used the seatbelt analogy.

    After she was finished, I paid, tipped and left.

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