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Thread: NO Firearms allowed at Calhoun county fair

  1. #1
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    NO Firearms allowed at Calhoun county fair

    Well the anti's have come out of the closet, thats great now we know where NOT to attend.

    Time to go elsewhere, the progunners, people who really believe in our Rights will not attend, or spend our money, and support the AG Commies and their agenda.
    This anti's hide in organizations committee's, anywhere they can make laws, to deny the common person a right to exist in pease.


    http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/a...nty-fair-board

    Control & deny we the people.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    County Fairground = Preemption applies. Signs and ordinance unlawful.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 08-08-2011 at 08:07 PM.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    According to the fairground website, it is owned by "Calhoun County Fairgrounds (a 501 C-3 Non Profit Organization)".
    http://www.calhouncountyfair.org/?page_id=6

    In Michigan law, there is a "Nonprofit Corporation Act" Act 162 of 1982. MCL 450.2261 lists the powers granted to nonprofits, none of which grant regulation of firearms or have general language so loose as to be a loophole to give themselves power to regulate firearms. All of the granted powers are fairly specific, and the most general still reference "in furtherance of its corporate purposes".
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%2...e=mcl-450-2261

    I do not believe CCF could legitimately claim that among its corporate purposes is the regulation of lawful open carry and licensed concealed carry.

    Although a corporation may be private, in return for nonprofit privileges they must accept the limits of power as the law prescribes, among other things they must accept. I think there is a case that CCF, being a nonprofit, does not have the power to regulate firearms as perhaps another private corporation may, who does not enjoy nonprofit privileges but also is not restricted by nonprofit corporation law.
    Last edited by DanM; 08-08-2011 at 11:54 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    My understanding is that the fairgrounds are county property, that the Mi AG society in effect runs the fair for the week. There are multiple members on their board (yes we belonged at one time anyone can join) and most of them and this is personal experience speaking here think them self as a demi god of the fair, and are flat out ass holes. Bumped into them more than once when the kids were 4 H.

    If you want to raise hell for them, here is a sword of Damocles for you, check out the state laws they violate in the camp grounds just to make a little extra money for their group (hint spacing, minimum isle width, and density)..... Yes they can be closed down for these violations......

    Bottom line is they do not own but only manage an event for one week a year.......

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    According to the fairground website, it is owned by "Calhoun County Fairgrounds (a 501 C-3 Non Profit Organization)".
    http://www.calhouncountyfair.org/?page_id=6

    In Michigan law, there is a "Nonprofit Corporation Act" Act 162 of 1982. MCL 450.2261 lists the powers granted to nonprofits, none of which grant regulation of firearms or have general language so loose as to be a loophole to give themselves power to regulate firearms. All of the granted powers are fairly specific, and the most general still reference "in furtherance of its corporate purposes".
    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(w1u...e=mcl-450-2261

    I do not believe CCF could legitimately claim that among its corporate purposes is the regulation of lawful open carry and licensed concealed carry.

    Although a corporation may be private, in return for nonprofit privileges they must accept the limits of power as the law prescribes, among other things they must accept. I think there is a case that CCF, being a nonprofit, does not have the power to regulate firearms as perhaps another private corporation may, who does not enjoy nonprofit privileges but also is not restricted by nonprofit corporation law.
    I want more info.

    In my town they have a non profit Bath Days festival org.. The festival is on a public park. Because of my having a booth there for the 2nd Amd. March (2009) where they tried to get me banned (those nasty guns) from setting up. Since they couldn't stop me, they have since made a condition of agreement for vendors that if they want to set up a booth the vender's can't have firearms (and dogs). They can't stop the public from bearing arms, but can they make the no firearm stipulation for the vendors???
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I want more info.

    In my town they have a non profit Bath Days festival org.. The festival is on a public park. Because of my having a booth there for the 2nd Amd. March (2009) where they tried to get me banned (those nasty guns) from setting up. Since they couldn't stop me, they have since made a condition of agreement for vendors that if they want to set up a booth the vender's can't have firearms (and dogs). They can't stop the public from bearing arms, but can they make the no firearm stipulation for the vendors???
    If it is on Public Property, then a Use Permit has most likely been granted. I would seek that Use Permit out, along with applicable City Ordinances for the same. You know the rest of the drill, probably best to start a new thread about it.

    I cannot see how any organization would be allowed to violate State Law on Public Property because they have a "Use Permit", otherwise None Of Our Rights are properly protected. If the City is aware of this, then I would believe it is "regulating in any other manner" wrt MCL 123.1102.

  8. #8
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    If it is on Public Property, then a Use Permit has most likely been granted. I would seek that Use Permit out, along with applicable City Ordinances for the same. You know the rest of the drill, probably best to start a new thread about it.

    I cannot see how any organization would be allowed to violate State Law on Public Property because they have a "Use Permit", otherwise None Of Our Rights are properly protected. If the City is aware of this, then I would believe it is "regulating in any other manner" wrt MCL 123.1102.
    The restriction is only between the BDF non-profit and the vendors. The public are allowed to bear arms at the festival, the vendors can't.

    They think this will stop pro-gun groups from buying a booth at their event and OC. Silly, since the vendor can be my wife (She won't carry) and I can carry as a visitor, as can any of my friends that want to hang around and visit.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    My understanding is that the fairgrounds are county property, that the Mi AG society in effect runs the fair for the week. There are multiple members on their board (yes we belonged at one time anyone can join) and most of them and this is personal experience speaking here think them self as a demi god of the fair, and are flat out ass holes. Bumped into them more than once when the kids were 4 H.

    If you want to raise hell for them, here is a sword of Damocles for you, check out the state laws they violate in the camp grounds just to make a little extra money for their group (hint spacing, minimum isle width, and density)..... Yes they can be closed down for these violations......

    Bottom line is they do not own but only manage an event for one week a year.......
    Exactly. There is no law that allows them to regulate firearms on that property. Just like any other festival, like some other ones mentioned here on OCDO, the contract between the county(city, state etc,) cannot violate constitutionally protected rights.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Exactly. There is no law that allows them to regulate firearms on that property. Just like any other festival, like some other ones mentioned here on OCDO, the contract between the county(city, state etc,) cannot violate constitutionally protected rights.
    IANAL, but couldn't someone get an court injunction prohibiting them from violating state law & constitutional rights in advance of the event? Is that even an option?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    IANAL, but couldn't someone get an court injunction prohibiting them from violating state law & constitutional rights in advance of the event? Is that even an option?
    Yes
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    My son is getting married that week so I will be up to my eyes in alligators and will likely not go, but a protest out side the gate could be held, or do what I do...

    A just don't go as there are a whole lot better fairs than that one

    B. remember what I was told..... "Concealed means concealed, if you do not need it no one will know you have it, and if you do it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"...

    Get this straight, I am in no way telling or encouraging anyone to break the law but be it know in this case it is just a misnomer at the very worst...

    Also a letter to them at calhounfair@aol.com could be of use, a massive letter writhing campaign should be enacted..... here is one example...

    To whom it may concern:

    Your position on posting 'NO legally concealed firearms' allowed on fair grounds property is terribly misguided.

    You've made a mountain out of a mole hill and drawn unnecessary scrutiny to yourself and your position. Your best position would have been to remain silent and allow law abiding citizens to exercise their legal and constitutional right as per Michigan law.

    Certainly a few people who normally attend, but won't this year, may be disappointed. However the major loss will be to you and the Calhoun County Fair in general.

    After reading about the issue in the newspaper, I've talked to at least three different people who will not attend the fair this year. And that's in just the last three days. One family is normally heavily involved with 4-H and is pulling out of attending the fair this year.

    Myself and my family will not attend the fair this year. We fear the publicity you've created by your position, and the fact that no law abiding citizens will be allowed to carry their concealed firearms could result in giving someone with ill-intent a green light to create carnage at the fair.

    We will never again attend the fair until you change your policy. My right to personal self defense of myself and my family is far more valuable than attending the fair.

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    I hit the soap box today....

    My letter to them, the Enquirer, and I plan on sending hard copy's to each and everyone of the board members as soon as I can get their address.... I did not include the link to the paper...

    My kids an myself have long been a part of the Calhoun County Fair. We were part of the committee, had season passes, week fair passes, camped out there for the entire event, and were very proactive in 4 H. As my kids grew 4 H was a positive growing experience for them, even continuing after they were too old for 4 H they registered in open class, became 4 H leaders.

    When Michigan became an shall issue state approximately 10 years ago (my children) they, as well as myself took the time, went through the classes, certifications, FBI background checks, paid out the expensive fees and obtained our licenses. In short we have been carrying concealed at the Calhoun County fair the entire time, Look around; we were not the only ones.

    As a direct result of the new law, Crime (robbery, rape, and assault per FBI crime statics) has lowered. There are at present well in excess of two hundred thousand concealed weapon permit holders in Michigan. In Calhoun County alone 1 in 22 adults are licensed are licensed to carry and this number is growing, many of them fair attendees. Facts are less than a tenth of a percentile of law abiding citizens that have gone to the trouble have had their permits revoked for any reason.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_343621_7.pdf


    Now along came your no guns sign… Do you honestly think a sign is going to stop crime, are you delusional and think a criminal will even take note? Have signs actually stopped any crimes in the history of this country? Just in case you are not sure of the answer it is NO! That is statically a fact, and according to criminal law they are not obligated to obey the law, as it is counter to their being, and considered self incrimination!

    The police cannot be everywhere, further they have no legal obligation to “Protect or Serve”. So in your decision is to make the fairgrounds unsafe for myself, my family, my friends, by disarming us but openly allowing criminals free access to a weapon free zone is ill thought, ill placed, and simply does not show any reflection on possible outcomes at all. So unless you rescind this atrocity post haste, as a law abiding citizen none of us will be there, we will not go willingly and be sheep for some wolf!
    Last edited by Sheldon; 08-10-2011 at 02:09 PM.

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    hear hear sheldon my thought exactly,
    my wife and I both stopped going 3+ yrs ago becouse of there ignorant rules that we will not put up with.....

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    I wish I could be there with you all for this one. Good luck.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    My kids and myself have long been a part of the Calhoun County Fair. We were part of the committee, had season passes, week fair passes, camped out there for the entire event, and were very proactive in 4 H. As my kids grew 4 H was a positive growing experience for them, even continuing after they were too old for 4 H they registered in open class, became 4 H leaders.

    When Michigan became a shall issue state for concealed pistol licenses (CPL), approximately 10 years ago, they (my children), as well as myself took the time, went through the classes, certifications, FBI background checks, paid out the expensive fees and obtained our licenses. In short we have been carrying concealed at the Calhoun County fair the entire time, Look around; we were not the only ones.

    As a direct result of the new law, Crime (robbery, rape, and assault per FBI crime statics) has lowered. There are at present well in excess of two hundred thousand concealed weapon permit holders in Michigan. In Calhoun County alone 1 in 22 adults are licensed to carry a concealed pistol and this number is growing, many of them fair attendees. The fact is less than a tenth of a percentile of law abiding citizens that have gone to the trouble have had their permits revoked for any reason.
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...t_343621_7.pdf


    Now along comes your no guns sign… Do you honestly think a sign is going to stop crime, are you delusional and think a criminal will even take note? Have signs actually stopped any crimes in the history of this country? Just in case you are not sure of the answer it is NO! That is statistically a fact (can you cite this? Bronson), and according to criminal law they are not obligated to obey the law, as it is counter to their being, and considered self incrimination!

    The police cannot be everywhere, further they have no legal obligation to “Protect or Serve”. So in your decision is to make the fairgrounds unsafe for myself, my family, and my friends, by disarming us but openly allowing criminals free access to a weapon free zone is ill thought, ill placed, and simply does not show any reflection on possible outcomes at all. So unless you rescind this atrocity post haste, as a law abiding citizen none of us will be there, we will not go willingly and be sheep for some wolf!

    My letter to them, the Enquirer, and I plan on sending hard copy's to each and everyone of the board members as soon as I can get their address.... I did not include the link to the paper...
    Just a few suggestions in red.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 08-11-2011 at 04:57 AM.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    [Criminals] are not obligated to obey the law, as it is counter to their being, and considered self incrimination!
    Good on ya for writing in support, but be careful to sound reasonably intelligent. While it is true that criminals don't obey the law, they are obligated to do so. And self-incrimination has nothing to do with any of that.

    I'm sure you are a smart person but--let's be honest--a lot of readers are going to go "WTF?" and think you don't make sense. When we publicly communicate, let's reflect well on all gun owners by triple-checking our message.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Good on ya for writing in support, but be careful to sound reasonably intelligent. While it is true that criminals don't obey the law, they are obligated to do so. And self-incrimination has nothing to do with any of that.

    I'm sure you are a smart person but--let's be honest--a lot of readers are going to go "WTF?" and think you don't make sense. When we publicly communicate, let's reflect well on all gun owners by triple-checking our message.
    This is correct. Remember that the average reader has something like a sixth-grade reading level and is not going to ponder the definition of "criminal" in relation to "laws".
    I would also change "percentile" to "percent". Two different things; one does not equal the other. Otherwise good.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Angry

    Actually the revoke rate is something like .001% hence a percentile, the paper has a maximum word count and this is pushing it to the limit and then some, but I have been told they will publish it within the next few days....

    some time back (couple of years?) in a different forum I read a story of a criminal that sued the court, damn nothing new there, but the bottom line was that he as a criminal was not legally obligated to obey the law as it wasn't not in his nature, and any admission or discussion to the same was self incrimination, yet another judge strikes with an opinion....

    So anyone read in todays rag the response from Cheryl Easterday this will p you off....
    "Mr Fulton you are not being banned from the Calhoun county fair-your concealed potentially deadly weapon is....
    "If you are so concerned for your personal safety during the few hours at a local fair that you feel you must be armed, then it would be in everyones best interest that you an your gun stay home".....

    Can you say arrogant, ignorant bimbo.....
    Last edited by Sheldon; 08-12-2011 at 11:55 PM.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon View Post
    Actually the revoke rate is something like .001% hence a percentile, the paper has a maximum word count and this is pushing it to the limit and then some, but I have been told they will publish it within the next few days....

    some time back (couple of years?) in a different forum I read a story of a criminal that sued the court, damn nothing new there, but the bottom line was that he as a criminal was not legally obligated to obey the law as it wasn't not in his nature, and any admission or discussion to the same was self incrimination, yet another judge strikes with an opinion....

    So anyone read in todays rag the response from Cheryl Easterday this will p you off....
    "Mr Fulton you are not being banned from the Calhoun county fair-your concealed potentially deadly weapon is....
    "If you are so concerned for your personal safety during the few hours at a local fair that you feel you must be armed, then it would be in everyones best interest that you an your gun stay home".....

    Can you say arrogant, ignorant bimbo.....
    What I was trying to say was that the word "percentile" has a different meaning than the one you have given it. The word percentile refers to data in which one ranks scores.
    BTW, the revoke rate can't be .001%. That would mean that out of every 100,000 cpls issued, only one has been revoked. Assuming Michigan has between 200,000 and 300,000 persons with a cpl, it has only revoked between 2 and 3 CPLs? Yes, cpl holders are law abiding, but not to that degree. Just sayin'...

    What always surprises me is the number if people who can rattle off a list of locations that they believe are so safe that carrying a firearm is unnecessary. But, at the same time, if one does a very small amount of research, these are exactly the types of places that people hell bent on amassing casualties have chosen to find victims. It would be almost comical if it weren't such a serious issue.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-13-2011 at 01:01 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
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    If you guys face book stop by here and hammer them... the fair has a FB page..

    http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref...30319590378830

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    What I was trying to say was that the word "percentile" has a different meaning than the one you have given it. The word percentile refers to data in which one ranks scores.
    BTW, the revoke rate can't be .001%. That would mean that out of every 100,000 cpls issued, only one has been revoked. Assuming Michigan has between 200,000 and 300,000 persons with a cpl, it has only revoked between 2 and 3 CPLs? Yes, cpl holders are law abiding, but not to that degree. Just sayin'...

    What always surprises me is the number if people who can rattle off a list of locations that they believe are so safe that carrying a firearm is unnecessary. But, at the same time, if one does a very small amount of research, these are exactly the types of places that people hell bent on amassing casualties have chosen to find victims. It would be almost comical if it weren't such a serious issue.
    Tucson, the mall shooting about 3 years back (where was that now?), Columbine, GR just a few weeks back, which happened again in was it Indiana, even army bases, college campus's, work places, damn there is a huge list.....

    I get your point, but the word percentile has been used in multiple gun publications WRT the excessively low revoke rate of CPL's N I think I may be off a decimal point but statically it is so low that any way you look it that less than 1% is a very low number for any event....
    Last edited by Sheldon; 08-14-2011 at 12:22 AM.

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