lapeer20m
Regular Member
I would also like to point out that there are likely establishments licensed to sell alcohol that do not actually sell any.
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Questions about Open Carrying. Please Help.
- Thread starter Ranard The Fox
- Start date
Get2DahChopper
Regular Member
Use this link!
As pointed out by Lapeer20m there maybe places that don't sell booze but, have a license. The cops know these traps and are more than willing to jam up a poorly informed OCer. Good luck and carry on! :dude:
http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/
As pointed out by Lapeer20m there maybe places that don't sell booze but, have a license. The cops know these traps and are more than willing to jam up a poorly informed OCer. Good luck and carry on! :dude:
http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/
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Venator
Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
He meant you can conceal carry on your own property, but have to OC in other areas allowed by law. Besides state and federal law you can OC in all areas not listed in .234d. Keep in mind that businesses can ban firearms.
See what we mean by there is a lot to this and it's confusing at first. Learn, study and ask questions.
SpringerXDacp
New member
Ranard, the method(s) I used in the beginning to aid in understanding (or attempting to do so) he laws was to use the Michigan Legislature website or just Google to locate the pertinent statutes. I would then copy and paste the statute into a Word.doc, print and save the doc to my desktop for later reference. The statutes I'd print would be those such as MCL's: 28.425o (for CPL holders), 750.234d, 750.231a, and so on. Refer to the printed docs often and make notes on them as necessary. In other words, create a portfolio of the relevant MCL's.
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rjaf0b55bmlsxv45aimvfoze))/mileg.aspx?page=home
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DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
Get2DahChopper
Regular Member
stainless1911
Banned
Good call with that answer.
No, dont ask, just carry, as long as they dont have a liquor license.
If you are at a mall for instance, the property is going to be owned by the mall, which probably does not have a liquor license. If one of the stores in the mall has a liquor license, this does not prohibit you from carrying at the mall, but it does prohibit carry in that particular store.
BTW, welcome to OCDO, and OC. You are in the right place, and by asking questions, youre doing the right thing. Ask all the questions you want, even the "stupid" questions. Ask them over and over again if you need to.
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Shadow Bear
Michigan Moderator
Hmmmm- if a bicycle could be considered a 'vehicle', what about a long board? I understand there's no case law, but, what think ye?
TheQ
Regular Member
Except your car -- no such thing as OC in a car. Car Carry = CC in MI and they'll send you to "pound-me-in-the-a** state Penn for up to 5 years...
lapeer20m
Regular Member
almost.....
A gun is not legally or magically concealed simply because it is "in a vehicle." While unlawful without a cpl or other exemption, the law recognizes that it is possible to carry concealed or not concealed in a vehicle.
mcl 750.227:
NHCGRPR45
Regular Member
Hmmmm- if a bicycle could be considered a 'vehicle', what about a long board? I understand there's no case law, but, what think ye?
OK so heres a question. Yes this is a real question of mine. I get that riding a bike and being drunk can get you a DUI, and that you can be ticketed for doing something stupid on a bike and that we maybe are not clear about OC on a bike, Pedal type not a motorcycle. What about a skate board, this might apply if more and more of our responseable youth start to OC? Its powered by the person useing it same as a bike but could it be considered a vehicle like a bike. I ask this because my daughter just asked me about, she can be very astute at times, and it IMO could be concievable so I put it to you the OC experts. Leagl yes, no, maybe?
Also has the OC on a bike question been answered?
Bronson
Regular Member
While I highly doubt it would happen the fact that 750.227 doesn't define vehicle nor does it reference another statute or other definition leaves the possibility on the table.
I imaging that if it were to go to court each side would be trying to convince the judge/jury to use their definition. Defense would be trying to sell the definition of vehicle as defined in Section 257.79 of the MI vehicle code while the prosecution would be going for the broader dictionary definition which would include any device that is used to convey people or things.
Bronson
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stainless1911
Banned
In other words, it would deteriorate into a he said / she said.
PDinDetroit
Regular Member
Welcome to OCDO!
I find it very interesting that the MI State Police sent you here for information on Open Carry (OC) when MSP Legal Update #86 addresses OC pretty well.
As others have stated, please READ-READ-READ the Stickies and MI Laws pertaining to Open Carry. For the first time OC'ing, you may also wish to join someone else who OC's in your local area if possible or attend an OC Event. My first OC Experience was walking around the block in my neighborhood (and I was very self-conscious of it). Now, I do not even think twice about OC'ing and the past 2 years have been many posts of "no issues"...
Onnie
Regular Member
Note: Monroe Michigan has an old law on the books that says you may not ride a bicycle in the city limits with a weapon. I cant remember if it states a handgun, gun, weapon, or rifle but basically if you are underarms you can not ride a bicycle. I am sure its preempted but for now its still there
I think why the law MAY clump a bicycle in the same category as a car (vehicle) and not a skateboard is back in the 1880's bicycle were extremely popular and people in cities owned them for TRANSPORTATION in places you could not own a horse. say like in downtown Detroit, Chicago or NYC..
Bicycles were not designed in the beginning for FUN as much as a way to get from one place to another and mostly adults rode bicycles.
As cars took over, the bicycles become a toy for kids to ride around the neighborhood, yet laws for them remained on the books. Run a stop sign on a bike and you COULD find yourself with a traffic ticket for running a stop sign. I have seen one for a 12 year old.
I guess if you have a 12 year old run a stop sign on a skateboard, he could get a ticket but skateboards today while seen in streets everyday, you still don't often see someone go on a 20 mile trip to the store on a skateboard.
Bicycles have a stigma still left over from their heyday that they are vehicles because there were laws for and about bicycles, as cars became the main mode of transportation many laws were removed but not the idea of it being a vehicle. I remember as a young boy in the 50s, being told ALL vehicle laws pertained to you as you rode your bike. And in a state where its still on the books that a wife must get her husband's permission to cut her hair, they are not going to quickly change their state of mind~
anyways that my take on WHY a bicycle MAY be considered a vehicle and not a skateboard
I think why the law MAY clump a bicycle in the same category as a car (vehicle) and not a skateboard is back in the 1880's bicycle were extremely popular and people in cities owned them for TRANSPORTATION in places you could not own a horse. say like in downtown Detroit, Chicago or NYC..
Bicycles were not designed in the beginning for FUN as much as a way to get from one place to another and mostly adults rode bicycles.
As cars took over, the bicycles become a toy for kids to ride around the neighborhood, yet laws for them remained on the books. Run a stop sign on a bike and you COULD find yourself with a traffic ticket for running a stop sign. I have seen one for a 12 year old.
I guess if you have a 12 year old run a stop sign on a skateboard, he could get a ticket but skateboards today while seen in streets everyday, you still don't often see someone go on a 20 mile trip to the store on a skateboard.
Bicycles have a stigma still left over from their heyday that they are vehicles because there were laws for and about bicycles, as cars became the main mode of transportation many laws were removed but not the idea of it being a vehicle. I remember as a young boy in the 50s, being told ALL vehicle laws pertained to you as you rode your bike. And in a state where its still on the books that a wife must get her husband's permission to cut her hair, they are not going to quickly change their state of mind~
anyways that my take on WHY a bicycle MAY be considered a vehicle and not a skateboard
DrTodd
Michigan Moderator
My only comment here is what I have gleaned by reading the law and some Michigan court cases. As it has been said many times before, the statute in question refers to "vehicle". Since the term is not defined in the actual mcl, judges have some options. One option is to defines it using the vehicle code, which I believe would make riding OC on a bicycle or a skateboard legal without a cpl.
Lacking a definition in the MCL, the judge could decide to define it using a dictionary of his/her choosing. A vehicle implies that it is a contrivance that moves people or goods from one place to another; a definition which appears to cover bicycles and skateboards.
There was a Michigan case, which I don't have handy, that talks about a trailer being a vehicle in an issue that concerned governmental immunity. On the other hand, I have seen many cases in my research that, when charges are actually laid against a person, the charge often is cited as "carrying a pistol in a motor vehicle". Note the use of the word "motor".
So, in essence, some cases would be a point for the notion of skateboards and bicycles being a vehicle and some cases would seem to indicate carry without a cpl on a bike or skateboard would be legal. So, I guess until we have a clear court case where either it is deemed either legal or illegal, the safe thing to do would be to consider that the word "vehicle" includes skateboards and bicycles. To those here who posess a cpl, it really is a non-issue as it only affects those without a cpl.
* Before I had my cpl, I was actually stopped by the DNR while handgun hunting and riding my bike. The officer checked my license and let me go on my way. Would I use this as indication of its legality? Probably not, though I sure am happy I wasn't cited... although maybe I could have become the "testcase" for the state of Michigan. lol
Lacking a definition in the MCL, the judge could decide to define it using a dictionary of his/her choosing. A vehicle implies that it is a contrivance that moves people or goods from one place to another; a definition which appears to cover bicycles and skateboards.
There was a Michigan case, which I don't have handy, that talks about a trailer being a vehicle in an issue that concerned governmental immunity. On the other hand, I have seen many cases in my research that, when charges are actually laid against a person, the charge often is cited as "carrying a pistol in a motor vehicle". Note the use of the word "motor".
So, in essence, some cases would be a point for the notion of skateboards and bicycles being a vehicle and some cases would seem to indicate carry without a cpl on a bike or skateboard would be legal. So, I guess until we have a clear court case where either it is deemed either legal or illegal, the safe thing to do would be to consider that the word "vehicle" includes skateboards and bicycles. To those here who posess a cpl, it really is a non-issue as it only affects those without a cpl.
* Before I had my cpl, I was actually stopped by the DNR while handgun hunting and riding my bike. The officer checked my license and let me go on my way. Would I use this as indication of its legality? Probably not, though I sure am happy I wasn't cited... although maybe I could have become the "testcase" for the state of Michigan. lol
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NHCGRPR45
Regular Member
Ok sounds good. The benefits do not outweigh the risks, CPL when OC'ing on bikes and skateboards. My daughter says thank you as well.