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Thread: OT: shariah in Leesburg today

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    Regular Member nemo's Avatar
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    OT: shariah in Leesburg today


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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Well, I don't live in the Town of Leesburg, or Loudoun County; however, I'll state for the record that I don't care. There is no such thing as Shariah "law" in the United States. And it's become a bit of a pet peeve that the news faces keep saying that Shariah is "Islamic law", which is hogwash.

    Islamic law is contained within the books of Leviticus, Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Most folks don't know that the Kor'an is basically a commentary on the Bible (Old and New testaments - it was written about three hundred years after the Canon was complete, and Mohammed had been a student of Christianity in Europe before he became disgusted and took "The Book" to "the other sons of Abraham"). The Kor'an incorporates the Bible by reference, and makes the law of the OT the law for Muslims.

    Shariah, on the other hand, is Arab tribal custom. It is neither "law", nor "Islamic", except that within the kind of seminomadic patriarchal tribes of the region, most of the folks are "Muslim" (sort of the way most folks here are "Christian"), and whatever Big Daddy in the clan says, is "law". You try cutting off someone's hand here because they're guilty of theft, and the thief will not be charged with any crime, and the people who cut off the hand will go to jail for assault, battery, mayhem (the common law crime of severing any body part of another person) and/or malicious wounding, and conspiracy and/or attempt to commit all of the above.

    I wonder what all those folks in England are so worked up about?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    .....

    I wonder what all those folks in England are so worked up about?
    Would seem that the problem is that the weak knee'd, diversity driven government officials allow for the court system to be exchanged for a sharia court, in which English law has no standing or is not followed at all.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4749183.ece

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    First, I have consumed no unlawfully intoxicating substance for over thirty years. The S.O.L. was up on all that stuff long before my certificate of good character was filed with the Virginia Supreme Court. ("If you can remember 1968, you weren't there.")

    Saying that because predominantly Islamic countries have a legal system based on traditional Arab culture (which existed long before, like several thousand years, before Islam was invented) that the legal system is Islamic is like saying that the Constitution of the United States is "Christian law". It happens that many of the people who participated in the drafting would have called themselves, "Christians", but that don't make the Constitution "Christian law". That system they're calling, "Shariah", was first codified during the reign of Hammurabi, and it was "common law" way before that. We're talking five to seven thousand years before the invention of Islam.

    But my point wasn't about the abstractions of distinctions that can be drawn between the base culture of a people and the more recent religious overlays adopting and reinforcing that culture; it was about the irrelevance of Shariah to the legal systems of the United States. We define crimes and torts without regard to how traditional Arabic cultures would have defined them, and it don't make a spit's worth of difference in the U.S. what Hammurabi OR Mohammed (or Moses; or His Holiness, the Supreme Holy Father, Pope Sixtus IV, for that matter - that wonderful guy who brought you The Holy Inquisition) would have done to a thief. In the U.S., Shariah represents a purely personal system of thought about what the law ought to be, and is therefore irrelevant to the systems of law and laws presently in effect.

    Here's another point about the distinction between Shariah and Islam: no one can claim to be exercising "religious freedom" by acting on the basis of traditional Arab culture which pre-dated Islam by thousands of years. You can't bring aspects of your native culture to the United States that are inconsistent with U.S. law and the law of the state in which you settle down, and expect to be given diplomatic extraterritorial rights in the exercise of your cultural norms. Stone your daughter for sleeping with her boyfriend and you go to prison, 'cause it ain't about the free exercise of religion in the slightest.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    User, Wow!
    That’s some defense to Shariah. I don’t know whether you’re a scholar in Islamic studies, a proponent of the introduction and takeover of, or, if you simply cut and pasted. But what I do know is that not caring fits right in to the plans of the liberals granting what you say cannot happen.

    I’m no scholar, I’m total against Shariah, and here’s a few cut and pastes:


    http://shariahthethreat.org/a-short-...at-is-shariah/

    “Shariah commands both Islamic terrorism and pre-violent, “civilizational jihad” or “stealth jihad,” depending on necessity and circumstances. Those who work to insinuate shariah into the United States are conspiring to subvert and replace the Constitution, because under shariah, freedom of religion and other civil liberties enshrined in the Constitution – and the very concept of man-made law – are incompatible with Islam.
    Any system of man-made law is considered illicit under shariah, where Allah and only Allah has provided the law. This is not a radical concept in Islam, but a fundamental tenet of the faith”

    The Wikipedia thing says; “Sharīah is the code of conduct or religious law of Islam”

    See Shariah in the UK. http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2011/...in-england.php

    It's happening and I think you know it user, just be honest!
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/...in_americ.html

    I find more idea and fact pointing to your bias acceptance. Those with thoughts as you in the UK allowed the very thing they thought could not happen, or did they allowed it, and you say could not happen here. I find your words deceptive and alarmingly dangerous to our future. Do you wish this, but cover its arrival with dismissal?
    Last edited by jbone; 08-10-2011 at 12:58 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I don't see User defending Shariah law. He is simply stating what Shariah actually is as opposed to what most Americans percieve it to be. When it comes to User, I trust his authority when it comes to the law opposed to your reference to Wikipedia.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    Glad I don';t live in Virginia is that is how people see sharia! I'll stay in the Midwest where we know what sharia is and is not. It's not welcome here.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I don't see User defending Shariah law. He is simply stating what Shariah actually is as opposed to what most Americans percieve it to be. When it comes to User, I trust his authority when it comes to the law opposed to your reference to Wikipedia.
    He is too, and no he's not, look I posted three references, he posted zero, and you oppose the more liberal reference I used?

    user may very well be the authority you suggest, but never-the-less he communicates a position, a stance on how he perceives Shariah. I've done the same with references; what’s your position, if you care to share. A position is something we will all be faced with taking on concering this subject sooner or later, but, I don't care is a pathway to Shariah in the U.S.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Well, JBone and Tony are entitled to their opinions. I'm not sure why either of them thinks that Shariah is legally significant in the U.S., myself. Crime is crime, and if a defendant claims justification on the basis of Shariah, well, he's probably leaving though the side door. Now, I've only been practicing law a little over twenty years, myself, and I'm sure they've both got more experience with legal systems than I do, and I respect their opinion.

    On the other hand, by reacting to what they see as a negative, they give it credibility and significance that it would not have, otherwise. A reaction to evil is the realization of that evil.

    "Shariah is legally irrelevant" is a different statement from "I don't care", however. Moslems make up a tiny percentage of the population. I see the bigger threat coming from states like Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Massachussetts, Illinois, California, and Hawaii, in which the dominant culture feels a strong need to disarm the citizenry (Roman Catholics occupy six of the nine seats on the U.S. Sup. Ct., and Islam has none.).
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member VW_Factor's Avatar
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    Something more to chew on.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VW_Factor View Post


    Something more to chew on.
    What a gem!

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    Playing the sharia card is a fear mongering tactic used to try and scare uninformed voters into coming out and participating. There is no and will never be sharia law in the US.

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    Stating that Shariah "law" is irrelevant and non-existent in the US is naive. I remember reading a case a few months back about a Federal Judge allowing Shariah "law" within the court. A short google search and TWO other issues were found....

    1st

    Sharia Law in the United States
    The U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri, Richard Callahan, assured Muslims on April 29th that “the Obama Administration would likely step in on behalf of Sharia law should any state try to ban it.” This may be of interest because various laws are pending in many states to prohibit or limit the application of Sharia Law in their courts.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/...united-states/

    2nd
    Shariah law is already here: Judge allows spousal rape on Islamic grounds...The American judge dismissed the woman's charges of sexual assault and criminal sexual conduct on the grounds that her husband should not be punished for spousal rape because Islam permits it.

    http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/100725

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Playing the sharia card is a fear mongering tactic used to try and scare uninformed voters into coming out and participating. There is no and will never be sharia law in the US.
    Unless the Christians impose it, with anti-women, anti-gay, anti-other religious votes.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    "fear mongering" I never saw the likes of such tactics until the Obama administration and distasteful liberal 111th turned it into a daily practice.

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    "Death Panels"

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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    jbone, please change your icon, it gives me the willies every time I see your posts ... it is terrorizing me
    cheers - okboomer
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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okboomer View Post
    jbone, please change your icon, it gives me the willies every time I see your posts ... it is terrorizing me
    I hear yah! It's like that chain mail were you stare at something and then that crazy thing from the movie the Ring jumps out. Terrorizing is a good association of picture to person. Just like when I see Pelosi my brain associates with Water Moccasin.


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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    "Death Panels"
    “Harry Reid Kicks The Fear Mongering Up A Couple Hundred Notches: No Debt Deal Means “No Schools For Our Children”

    “Pelosi Not Done Fear Mongering: Tells Seniors They Can “Kiss Their Medicare Good-Bye”


    This Chupacabra and Water Moccasin do it while speaking for and to the American people from elected positions, as for Palin she did it from face book as a non-politician. You compare apples and oranges. I know I only give you recent examples but easy searches reveal tons of such BS, and Anti America rhetoric from these trash talkers on the left.


    Should you ask, I will agree that both party's love doing it, both no party masters the deceit and usse's it for such dispecible reason and gain as do the liberal/socialists . IMO.
    Last edited by jbone; 08-11-2011 at 06:59 PM.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    The recommendation by McCain would be enough to make me vote for the other candidate, if I were a Virginia Republican.
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    And it's become a bit of a pet peeve that the news faces keep saying that Shariah is "Islamic law", which is hogwash.
    It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine that some folks aren't as well versed in the facts as they should be:

    Sharīʿah (Arabic: شريعة‎ šarīʿah, IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa], "way" or "path") is the code of conduct or religious law of Islam. - Source More: Otto, Jan Michiel. Sharia and National Law in Muslim Countries: Tensions and Opportunities for Dutch and EU Foreign Policy . Amsterdam University Press, 2008, p. 7.

    It is neither "law", nor "Islamic"
    Both Muslims and cultural experts say otherwise.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    I love the facts that are being posted showing that Sharia Law is in fact fallowed by Muslim countries and that states are fighting to prevent it from becoming a law of the land here,yet some here blindly sit by and insist it's not a law nor Islamic ( ). I guess the rest of us that see it for what it really is are just a bunch of fear mongering racists lmao.

    If you feel that Sharia is not a law and that Muslim countries do not fallow it. Feel free to move to an Islamic country for 3 months and than come back and see if your tune hasn't changed.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Radical Lefties and radical Islamists will institute this despicable Trojan Law right under our noses if America doesn’t shake off this PC sickness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    Radical Lefties and radical Islamists will institute this despicable Trojan Law right under our noses if America doesn’t shake off this PC sickness.
    Indeed, they'll ban gay marriage, say women are subservient to men, say that the will of god is contained within their holy book (and it is supreme), non-followers are doomed to eternity of torment, or that their divine being should be invoked in both national pledges and on currency, that churches are exempt from paying government taxes, that women are not to have abortions, and all those other terribly anti-freedom, anti-choice things.

    It's soooo different than fundamentalist christians. How could anyone mistake the two?
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
    Indeed, they'll ban gay marriage, say women are subservient to men, say that the will of god is contained within their holy book (and it is supreme), non-followers are doomed to eternity of torment, or that their divine being should be invoked in both national pledges and on currency, that churches are exempt from paying government taxes, that women are not to have abortions, and all those other terribly anti-freedom, anti-choice things.
    Wow. You just described the beliefs of the vast majority of our Founding Fathers.

    It's soooo different than fundamentalist christians. How could anyone mistake the two?
    Lol, I get it now - yours was a parody...

    On a more serious note, those set against Christianity love to paint it's followers like the paragraph above...

    Those who actually follow it, however, know that women help the men while the men serve the women.

    They know that God's will was revealed to men, which is contained in a book that actually lays the foundation for women helping the men while the men serve the women.

    They know that those who reject God, where heaven is, are simultaneously choosing an afterlife without God, where heaven isn't, that the lake of fire represents their shame while the lake of ice (see Revelations) represents an existence without God.

    They know since God would love for us all to get along, why not invoke remembrances of him and what he espouses: love, on our country's currency and pledge?

    They know as our Founding Fathers knew of Jesus' "render under Caesar what is Caesar's" statement with respect to taxes and said, "We won't be like Godless Caesar. We'll exempt God's churches from paying taxes."

    They know of the horrible subterfuge surrounding abortion, namely, that all this business surrounding "choice" denies the unborn baby any choice at all in the matter, denying all three of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" while the consensual (i.e. non-rape/incest) abortions are carried out as an afterthought because no forethought was involved in a consensual act of sex.

    I'm not sure who you're attempting to fool with those "terribly anti-freedom, anti-choice things" which are terrible in the way they strangle both freedom and choice in our country to the detriment of our society as a whole. They're little more than putrid twists of illogic turned upside down and re-labeled as "good" while remaining the epitome of the Biblical verse which says in the end times "they call good evil, and evil good."

    Interestingly, most of Shariah law is based on the old testament!

    What I find equally interesting, however, is where Shariah law departs from the canons accepted by Catholics, Orthodox, and Christians today, and the principle ingredients are Jesus and God's grace.

    No, folks - I am NOT preaching. I am, however, playing the devil's advocate, as there is so much anti-Islamic rhetoric out there which is ignorant of being anti-Judeo-Christian as well. Perhaps we should trash all religions as nonsense, but the question then becomes "what forms the basis of society?" Various psychological experiments have repeatedly shown that without an internal locus of control, a group of people in an unforgiving environment will devolve into animalistic tendencies within a couple of days, while a group with an internal locus of control will band together around that locus and continue behaving like humans, even unto their deaths.

    Equally interesting is that the latter course of action takes weeks, not days, and is much more conducive to long-term survival.

    On that point, I would argue that while many horrible things have been errantly committed in the name of religion/god, a great many more noble things have been done which separate us from our animal brethren by DNA.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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