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Thread: Just turning his life around

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    Just turning his life around

    Another ‘just turning his life around’ fatality

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...round-fatality

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, is it your personal belief that a person convicted of a felony -- who has fully served his sentence and is not on probation -- should be bared from exercising his inalienable 2nd Amendment Rights?

    Also, since you seem to believe in the "Suicide by Cop theory," do you also believe some dead police committed "Suicide by Criminal?" After all, LEO tend to experience a slightly higher than average suicide rate compared to society at large (if you ignore the FOP issued liar statistics).
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-11-2011 at 02:22 PM.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Out of curiosity, is it your personal belief that a person convicted of a felony -- who has fully served his sentence and is not on probation -- should be bared from exercising his inalienable 2nd Amendment Rights?
    People like this guy are a good example of why felons shouldn't be allowed to possess firearms unless they have gone through all the hoops to have that right restored. Even if this guy had served his time it was apparent from his recent record couldn't make good decisions.

    One of the hoops should be, and most likely is, demonstrating that he/she no longer makes the same kind of decisions that got them the felony conviction to begin with. If you feel that it should be a "blanket" restoration of this right, perhaps you should invite them all to live in your neighborhood. Most of them I'd prefer not to be around.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Another ‘just turning his life around’ fatality

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...round-fatality
    Dave-

    Isn't that almost a universal statement-----after they are killed doing "same old, same old"?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Oh no, the Dave's are fighting...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Also, since you seem to believe in the "Suicide by Cop theory," do you also believe some dead police committed "Suicide by Criminal?"
    You don't know what suicide by cop is, do you?
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  6. #6
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Oh no, the Dave's are fighting...



    You don't know what suicide by cop is, do you?
    In some cases, a way to justify murder. In all cases, a puke inducing sound bite that cops and the media throw around.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-11-2011 at 04:45 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    People like this guy are a good example of why felons shouldn't be allowed to possess firearms unless they have gone through all the hoops to have that right restored. Even if this guy had served his time it was apparent from his recent record couldn't make good decisions.

    One of the hoops should be, and most likely is, demonstrating that he/she no longer makes the same kind of decisions that got them the felony conviction to begin with. If you feel that it should be a "blanket" restoration of this right, perhaps you should invite them all to live in your neighborhood. Most of them I'd prefer not to be around.
    If someone is that dangerous upon release, then his sentence should have been longer originally

    The idea of Inalienable Rights, and 'jump through hoops to have Rights restored' are fundamentally incompatible. It's a logical and philosophical contradiction.

    You're either a citizen with Rights, incarcerated without all Rights -- or you are a disenfranchised second tier 'quasi-citizen. If we have that last category in America, then we reap what we sow, and I lean towards having zero sympathy for those who support and enforce that quasi-citizenship status.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-11-2011 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Out of curiosity, is it your personal belief that a person convicted of a felony -- who has fully served his sentence and is not on probation -- should be bared from exercising his inalienable 2nd Amendment Rights?

    Also, since you seem to believe in the "Suicide by Cop theory," do you also believe some dead police committed "Suicide by Criminal?" After all, LEO tend to experience a slightly higher than average suicide rate compared to society at large (if you ignore the FOP issued liar statistics).
    Who said it is my personal belief?

    "Suicide by cop" is not a theory.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Dave-

    Isn't that almost a universal statement-----after they are killed doing "same old, same old"?
    Well, this guy was a train wreck, and his family and friends seem to have been more in the "enabler" column than in the "family and friends" column.

    One of his buds shows up with a bottle for this guy's birthday..right after he gets out of rehab. How stupid is that?

    He's at the home he shared with his girlfriend...despite the protection order requiring them to be at least 500 feet apart. WTF? Anybody but me see a problem with this?

    In addition to "he wuz turnin' his life aroun'" nonsense, some folks were insisting "you didn't have to shoot him."

    NEWS FLASH: Somebody comes toward me (or any of you, for that matter, and you know it) with a knife and a shotgun after being repeatedly told to drop the knife and the shotgun, and after his girlfriend comes out of the house with bloody hands from fighting with the "somebody" over possession of the knife, that guy IS going to get shot.

    It is a shame, no doubt about it. Nobody likes to see a life wasted, and nobody likes to see a wasted life, especially if that life belongs to a son, daughter, sibling, parent. That is horribly painful. We're all born with the same opportunity to make choices between right and wrong. Most of us handle that pretty well. Some do not. In my career, I've run across people who keep doing the same stupid stuff repeatedly, even when they KNOW it is wrong and they're going to take some lumps. You really cannot fix stupid.

    This kid was 22 years old. A convicted felon. Just out of rehab. Subject to a protection order. What a waste of a human being.

  10. #10
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    The greater majority of those who end up in prison, usually have worked hard to get there and often have committed many crimes prior to reaching their.
    They live their lives with justifying their actions to clear what little conscious they have and surround themselves with enablers.

    The statement of "Just turning his life around" is used to console their family or friends.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Another ‘just turning his life around’ fatality

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...round-fatality
    A very "workman-like" article. Meaning, gotta admire the writing skills.

    While I don't see a connection to OC, and I learned nothing insightful or new socially-speaking, the writing is done well.

  12. #12
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post


    I've run across people who keep doing the same stupid stuff repeatedly, even when they KNOW it is wrong and they're going to take some lumps. You really cannot fix stupid.

    This kid was 22 years old. A convicted felon. Just out of rehab. Subject to a protection order. What a waste of a human being.
    Yep you can't fix stupid people but we can fix a stupid system. These laws and restraining orders would and did nothing to prevent this, and they never if rarely ever do.

    All these laws do is give self righteous people the false sense that something has been done. Get rid of the dumb laws they don't work, but often do make criminals out of people who have turned around but want the basic natural right to defend themselves to the best of their abilities.

    And as far as I am concerned, the female is just as culpable in all this. Maybe the dudes family can sue her for not enforcing the restraining order. Yep silly, just like a stupid unenforceable TRO.

    Oh yea the guy probably would have been shot by me too. But I will only believe in suicide by cop because people know how effective and well it works.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  13. #13
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
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    as coming from someone who has spent a LOT of time with people in jail *i had a false charge back in 2005 that took 8 months in county lock up to clear up*. my PERSONAL opinion is that 99.9% of these scumbags should never own a weapon. Criminals have a way of driving the same roads if you know what i mean. i saw guys who went through counceling, drug therapy, DV assesments. who got released, and swore up and down they would NEVER return. but the next morning at breakfast there they were........like they never left.

    Crime truely is a pattern. especially in cases where the criminal has a long repeated history of violence and crime. its all they know. many life time criminals in prison state that they would rather not be released, because they have lost the ability and functionality to be a productive member of society. and know that if they are indeed released, that they will shortly be incarcerated again , simply because of the fact that the only way they know how to survive is THROUGH crime.

    with that said. 90% of felonys are convicted for a darn good reason. now beating up your neighbor is NOT a felony, those who are charged in most states are still allowed to have a firearm, unless of course it is a domestic. then they are barred. but MOST felonlys are charged as felonys because the crime is very violent or had a potential to create an extreme risk to life or limb of the general public.

    however SOME felonys do not warrant in my belief revocation of the right to bear arms. such as a stupid 18 year old hitting a mailbox with a rock. which is defined as damage of federal property and therefore classified as a felony. or a Jobcorps student punching another student who is classified as a "federal employee" who is then charged with said felony.

    so........i DO believe that 90% of felons should NOT be allowed to own a weapon because of the simple fact that they made a concious decision to commit a crime that was large and dangerous enough to be charged a felony in the first place, they should not be given the chance to commit another crime of equal or greater danger to the general public by way of gaining the freedom to own a deadly weapon. simple as that
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Who said it is my personal belief?

    "Suicide by cop" is not a theory.
    So you still can't read, or answer simple straight forward questions. Too bad Keep writing.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carry for myself View Post
    as coming from someone who has spent a LOT of time with people in jail *i had a false charge back in 2005 that took 8 months in county lock up to clear up*. my PERSONAL opinion is that 99.9% of these scumbags should never own a weapon. Criminals have a way of driving the same roads if you know what i mean. i saw guys who went through counceling, drug therapy, DV assesments. who got released, and swore up and down they would NEVER return. but the next morning at breakfast there they were........like they never left.

    Crime truely is a pattern. especially in cases where the criminal has a long repeated history of violence and crime. its all they know. many life time criminals in prison state that they would rather not be released, because they have lost the ability and functionality to be a productive member of society. and know that if they are indeed released, that they will shortly be incarcerated again , simply because of the fact that the only way they know how to survive is THROUGH crime.

    with that said. 90% of felonys are convicted for a darn good reason. now beating up your neighbor is NOT a felony, those who are charged in most states are still allowed to have a firearm, unless of course it is a domestic. then they are barred. but MOST felonlys are charged as felonys because the crime is very violent or had a potential to create an extreme risk to life or limb of the general public.

    however SOME felonys do not warrant in my belief revocation of the right to bear arms. such as a stupid 18 year old hitting a mailbox with a rock. which is defined as damage of federal property and therefore classified as a felony. or a Jobcorps student punching another student who is classified as a "federal employee" who is then charged with said felony.

    so........i DO believe that 90% of felons should NOT be allowed to own a weapon because of the simple fact that they made a concious decision to commit a crime that was large and dangerous enough to be charged a felony in the first place, they should not be given the chance to commit another crime of equal or greater danger to the general public by way of gaining the freedom to own a deadly weapon. simple as that
    Yeah, those god damned founding father's and their belief in Inalienable Rights. How dare they screw up this country with that legacy... until 1968.

    Cause you know how bad this country was when every free citizen could own a firearm. And you could buy a gun from Sears and get it shipped to your door. And if you wanted a machine gun you could simply go put cash on a table and walk out with one.

    Yeah, almost 200 years of hell -- until the GCA of 1968 baring felons from owning firearms -- and you from mailing them, and you from buying some deemed 'too dangerous' etc.

    WTH were those founding father idiots thinking? Free citizens: bah. Inalienable rights: phooey. That damn Constitution is a POS, we should scrap it and go with whatever some smart guy like you feels like doing to other citizens at any given moment. Genius idea, I love it.

    Legal positivism sis boom bah, rah rah rah. Down with Rights, up with privileges.

    And yes, let's make a second class of 'quasi-citizens' to ensure we have a large disenfranchised population that hates the government, and Full Citizens (umm, I don't mind them hating you, but I'd prefer they not hate me). What a AWESOME idea. Way better than that crappy pre-1968 approach.

    And while we're on the topic, thank God the good old US of A imprisons more people than any other country in the world (even though India and China has like three times as many people). Now that's just smart business. Create an inherently unjust legal system designed to feed the prison UNIONS, paid for by taxes we can't afford. Capital idea. After all, government jobs (which are pretty close to plain old welfare) drive the economy!

    Most of the above is sarcasm, this isn't: you and your ideas make me sick to my stomach.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-12-2011 at 12:32 AM.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    This kid was 22 years old. A convicted felon. Just out of rehab. Subject to a protection order. What a waste of a human being.
    You're a jewel of compassion Dave.

    And if you can't spot the problem of dismissing both the 'trying to turn his life around' statement and 'he attended rehab' statement then you have a thinking problem. BTW, adults do not receive involuntary court ordered drug and alcohol treatment -- only juveniles do. So his participation in treatment must have been voluntary in nature.

    Ditch the un-Constitutional WoD, treat addiction for what it is (a medical condition), and I bet the story of this kid's life would have had a different ending.

    As a bonus we'd also have millions fewer people in prison, billions of tax dollars returned to those who earned it, millions fewer felons, and less erosion of everyone's Constitutional rights.

    Edited to add -- I see the flaw in my idea. If we end the WoD, then who'd make cheap license plates? Oh wait... CHINA!
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-11-2011 at 11:06 PM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    "Suicide by cop" is not a theory.
    Well then Mr. Reporter, provide a cite from the DSM.

    Just find an actual instance of the phrase "suicide by cop" or even something close to that, in the actual manual used to diagnose mental illness and issues surrounding suicide.

    Prove me wrong. I'll even admit it might be in there, I'm just guessing it isn't.

    But for the sake of argument if it is there, if it's a real disorder, than it stands to reason that cops commit suicide by criminal too. In fact, they have a financial incentive to do that: their family gets a large payout if they die in the line of duty. And since cops are more suicidal than the average citizen,, well, draw whatever conclusions you want.

    Edited to add: It's not in there, good luck searching. That's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It's probably at the reference desk of your local library, and if not it's probably available via an inter-library loan from the UW. Suicide by Cop is a disgusting soundbite used by the MsM and the Police to control and manipulate public opinion -- imho.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-12-2011 at 02:28 AM.

  18. #18
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Live Free or Die!

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    Regular Member CEM's Avatar
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    I know I'm not the most liked person on the board, in regards my job, but I did want to weigh in on a few things.

    No contact orders are helpful in some cases but NOT all. I was trying to write out a post that explained what I see often but issues like this are too complicated to write small posts about. And as far as my view on parole/probation some know my view on that (even if it wasn't my job I would feel the same way.) (and I'm applying for a job with Border Patrol in the deserts of AZ anyway so this isn't me trying to keep my job).

    As far as drug/alcohol treatment being ordered only for juveniles, it is actually often apart of a court judgement in criminal trials that someone participate in a "rehab" program.

    As far as "suicide by cop" in regards to this particular person I don't think anyone could know what his reasoning was behind this whole incident.

    As I think someone posted on, I'm not sure how this is a "open carry" issue but here is my 2 cents anyway.

    Best to everyone

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEM View Post
    As far as drug/alcohol treatment being ordered only for juveniles, it is actually often apart of a court judgement in criminal trials that someone participate in a "rehab" program.
    No, I believe you are 100% wrong. It can be part of a voluntary plea bargain, but it is not part of a flat out sentence sans the defendant entering into a voluntary agreement (agreeing to plead guilty, in exchange for a his sentence to include specific things like treatment, less jail time, etc.) .

    That is a huge distinction, and if it is not one... then the current 'treatment' model is a farce. Take your pick: plea bargains are a voluntary agreement (thus participation in treatment is voluntary), or the modern court affiliated treatment mill system is a farce.

    Here's another way to look at it. Find a convicted felon who is serving time in prison, and being forced to go to treatment. Not even sex offenders on Mcneil Island can be forced into participating with treatment, iirc that's per a SCOTUS or State Supreme Court ruling.

    Now there are lots of felons who, as a stipulation to a reduced sentence, voluntarily agreed to attend treatment. But that is not being forced now is it.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-12-2011 at 12:14 AM.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    So many Dave's in this thread :-) Dave_pro2a, if you disagree with the article so fervently, why not write your own about the same topic. You can post it here, and we'll all critique it. I don't mean this negatively, it just seems there are two very differing viewpoints here.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  22. #22
    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEM View Post
    I know I'm not the most liked person on the board, in regards my job, but I did want to weigh in on a few things.

    No contact orders are helpful in some cases but NOT all. I was trying to write out a post that explained what I see often but issues like this are too complicated to write small posts about. And as far as my view on parole/probation some know my view on that (even if it wasn't my job I would feel the same way.) (and I'm applying for a job with Border Patrol in the deserts of AZ anyway so this isn't me trying to keep my job).

    As far as drug/alcohol treatment being ordered only for juveniles, it is actually often apart of a court judgement in criminal trials that someone participate in a "rehab" program.

    As far as "suicide by cop" in regards to this particular person I don't think anyone could know what his reasoning was behind this whole incident.

    As I think someone posted on, I'm not sure how this is a "open carry" issue but here is my 2 cents anyway.

    Best to everyone
    Here's another way to look at it.

    There is no one currently IN prison being forced to participate in drug and alcohol treatment.

    There are people on parole who have agreed to participate in drug and alcohol treatment. Here's how that works: they are sentenced to 9 years. At year 7 the parole board makes an offer kind of like this...

    "We will release you now, but only if you agree to waive your 4th and 5th amendment rights -- so you know, our parole officers can roust you without a warrant. Oh yeah, you also have to agree to participate in drug or alcohol treatment. Please be aware, you don't have to agree to any of this, you can serve the full 9 year sentence and not attend treatment, and not have a parole officer."

    So were they sentenced to treatment? No.

    Or here's another scenario:

    A lady gets arrested for DUI (breaking gender stereotypes here). She is facing a very tough trial: either by jury, or by bench.

    She's in jail awaiting trial. The judge says something like this...

    "You can rot in jail until your trial, or we can let you out if you agree to not drink alcohol, not drive a vehicle, and attend AA meetings. Of course, you're welcome to sit in jail."

    Bam! Voluntary agreement. She is waiving her rights to a large degree by consent.

    So she agrees, and later the DA comes to her and says...

    "We can take this to trial and you can take your chances. You could face FIVE years in prison for this DUI. Or you can plead guiltily, save me hours of work, make me look good in front of my boss, get me a raise, and my name in the paper... and in exchange for your voluntary agreement to plead guilty I will make sure you only serve 2 days in jail, but you have to also attend AA meetings, not drive a car, not drink alcohol in any form."

    BAM! Voluntary agreement. She could have faced trial and as a result she would have lost her case and been given a sentence that did NOT include treatment. Period.

    Find me someone who faced a real trial by jury, or by bench, where there was no plea agreement, and the full sentence was served, and who also was forced to go to treatment. Good luck. Anything short of that is voluntary participation in treatment, or the modern WoD criminal approach to drug abuse -- and the ensuing 'court ordered' treatment mills-- are a joke.

    Frankly, I win either way. Because if that "worthless human" was forced into treatment than he is a murder victim of the WoD. We failed him. And if he wasn't forced into treatment, then he was trying to turn his life around by definition.
    Last edited by Dave_pro2a; 08-12-2011 at 11:45 AM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_pro2a View Post
    Out of curiosity, is it your personal belief that a person convicted of a felony -- who has fully served his sentence and is not on probation -- should be bared from exercising his inalienable 2nd Amendment Rights?
    For a felony crime of violence, yes. Otherwise, no. I think permanently losing your RKBA for all felonies is unjustified, especially given the proliferation of felonies that we're suffering. For example, losing your RKBA for selling a lobster which is "too small" according to some other nation's laws is idiotic.

    Maybe we can get 18 USC 44 Sec 922 (d)(1) amended to:
    (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime of violence punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEM View Post
    I know I'm not the most liked person on the board, in regards my job, but I did want to weigh in on a few things.
    It's not you that isn't liked.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Regular Member CEM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It's not you that isn't liked.
    Thanks SVG.

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