A Query For Those That Might Know - 4473 Rejection.

I have been working hard in the Eastern Kentucky area to promote a positive public image for Open Carry and while I have encountered a rare few that are still totally opposed to it or disapprove of the fact that I carry daily, I have not laid down the fight. In the beginning, I had met with some resistance from thos in my workplace and had been "warned off" even though there are no signs posted but I never let this hinder my efforts and just went about it in a different fashion till now, I have won over the minds of some of those that had been strictly opposed to open carry.

Here's the issue and the situation, perhaps someone on here that might know more about this issue can enlighten me. One of my manager's, the one that strictly warned me off previously, is slowly becoming a convert to the OC lifestyle. He has warmed up to the idea of carrying and what it really means to be armed and self-defense. Alot of this happened though after his house was robbed a few weeks back! If I remember the timeline of all this correctly, his house got robbed and a few days later is when he decided to purchase a weapon for self-defense. Though it's definitely not the best choice, definitely not my first choice, he purchased a Hi-Point .380 for a great price though. The purchase was through an FFL dealer and the 4473 was done with no problems.

A couple of days ago he went out and was looking at a Phoenix .22 for plinking. Well, when they went to run the 4473, it was rejected! I know all the reasons that this could've happened but he doesn't fit any of those red flags, NONE! Besides, had he had any issues, they would've been encountered when they ran his initial paperwork on the .380 about 2 weeks ago. The FFL dealer told him to come back on the 16th and they could sell it to him. This DOES NOT sound like any BATFE issue to me but something about the dealer, wouldn't you tend to agree? He said that the dealer had told him that they had no idea why it was rejected this time but that they had had their shipments held up in delivery due to the ATF. Due to the nature of this, I will not mention the name of the dealer but I'll just say that I have refused to deal with them since the change in ownership some years back and the outrageous prices they over charge on their weapons.

So, if anyone has any insight into the possibilities why his paperwork would've been rejected please post. This gentleman has a clean record with the exception of a public intoxication over some 35 years ago and perhaps a random speeding ticket in his youth. But definitely none of the issues that would cause his 4473 to be rejected.

Maybe because since he has never purchased a firearm before and now he has tried to purchase 2 "Saturday Night Special" style handguns, they're delaying it.

Other than that, I have no idea.

Phoenix Arms

When my wife bought her HP22a last year the ffl guy told me in passing that if we wanted to buy more than one pistol it'd be best to get them at the same time. Seems as though the atf folks will hem you up if you try to buy more than one on seperate occasions within a 30 day period. He said something about them thinking you might be straw purchasing etc.

Thank you gentlemen for your input. I had thought about that possibility as well as the fact that he had made a police report about his house being robbed shortly before and it possibly causeing a flag of sort there. I don;t know but I guess we'll see what comes of it. In the mean time,, since he has to wait for it, he's just decided to have them order a stainless over the blued version. *LOL*

neuroblades said:

Well, when they went to run the 4473, it was rejected! . . . . The FFL dealer told him to come back on the 16th and they could sell it to him. This DOES NOT sound like any BATFE issue to me but something about the dealer, wouldn't you tend to agree?

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No, this is not a dealer issue. Or, let me say that while it could be a dealer issue, I don't know any dealers that want to sit there on a sale when they could get the money instead, for a perfectly legal sale.

All NICS checks in Kentucky go through the FBI NICS center. When the dealer calls in the 4473, he gets one of three answers: 1) Proceed; 2) Delay; 3) Deny.

If it's #1, he receives a confirmation code that he writes on the 4473, and proceeds with the sale. If it's #3, he can't proceed with that sale, nor any other to that same customer, unless the customer receives a successful voluntary appeal (the dealer has no part in that process).

What your friend received was #2, "Delay". From the FBI:

If potentially prohibitive criteria exists and more information is required in order to make the determination, the NICS Examiner will advise the FFL to DELAY the firearm transaction and the FFL will receive the following instructions:

“. . .NTN ___ will be delayed while the NICS continues its research. If you do not receive a final response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on day/date.”

The NICS Examiner will provide the FFL with the date of the third business day after the firearm check was initiated. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated, Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed. If the FFL has not received from the NICS a final determination after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473. It is recommended the FFL record the date provided in the delay response on which the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS.

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Oh, and it doesn't have to be "potentially prohibitive criteria"; it could simply be that the computers were down. It happens.

If he attempted the purchase on Wednesday 8/10, the three full business days would be Thursday, Friday, and Monday. Tuesday the 16th would be the day he could legally complete the transfer, unless NICS called the dealer back and denied it. Since he already had one NICS approval, that's not going to happen.

WOW! Thanks for the heads-up, KBCraig! That was exactly the info I was looking for. I thought it strange that that happened on his second purchase and I know that Kentucky doesn't have a monthly limit so I was stumped on this one.

I've bought two handguns the same day, as well as two handguns at one time--a cased set of Blackhawk 50th Ann. models. No problem either time. I would guess the problem to be at the other end, as well. It is like any other computer system: has gremlins from time to time. That's why they have the 3 day rule.

Gunslinger said:

That's why they have the 3 day rule.

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Not in free states like Kentucky and Texas. I can look at, pay for and walk out with any pistol with no waiting period whatsoever.

You must have a concealed carry permit. I had to wait 3 days for my firearm.

Knock On Wood.

I've NEVER had a waiting period on any of my weapons purchases since the computer system went live. Recently when I picked up my new Rock River Arms LAR-15 CAR A4, I didn't even have the 4473 called in thanks to the CCDW. It was literally a cash & carry deal!

That's was a great feeling! Granted, this is at the shop's discretion though (whether or not they call in the 4473 then or later) and the 4473 will be submitted later as per BATFE rules.

I've dealt exclusively with this same gun shop for most of my "gun years" and they know me pretty well, especially after all that we've been through together over this new rifle! *LMBO*

flb_78 said:

Not in free states like Kentucky and Texas. I can look at, pay for and walk out with any pistol with no waiting period whatsoever.

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I was talking about the batfe allowing the sale if they (batfe) don't respond in 3 days after the 4473 submission. I can do the same in Colorado, of course, as in any of the Free States, but you still need the 4473 to be not be disapproved.

Ive walked in to a store and had the gun in my car in literally 5 minutes time. No waiting period here in KY.

Here is a little more info about being "delayed". My first, third, and forth runs on the NICS were delayed. I asked the guy the first time why it was taking mine so long when I was sitting there for hours watching others go in and out. He told me there are some factors that add time.

Your last name can prompt them to run it longer. Also what state you were born as well. When I called the lady at the state police to ask them how much longer I would be sitting here she told me since I was born in CA it will take longer, especially if its your first three NICS runs.

A friend of mine's son filed for a hand gun and his paperwork came back rejected because he was a 'felon'. Big case of misinformation and ID theft but after submitting a thumb print at the local KSP post his request went right through......immediately.

Update - 8-17-11

I just found out yesterday afternoon that they have DENIED his 4473! The shop store gave him two addresses for the BATFE, one in Louisville & one in Washington D.C. They didn't provide him with any reason for the 4473 being denied (the gun store), all they'd tell him is that he'd have to contact them (BATFE) for more information. Needless to say he was extremely upset and aggrovated by this turn of events, especailly being that he had just purchased a .380 about 2 weeks prior.

As I learn more, I'll keep everyone updated.

neuroblades said:

I just found out yesterday afternoon that they have DENIED his 4473! The shop store gave him two addresses for the BATFE, one in Louisville & one in Washington D.C. They didn't provide him with any reason for the 4473 being denied (the gun store), all they'd tell him is that he'd have to contact them (BATFE) for more information. Needless to say he was extremely upset and aggrovated by this turn of events, especailly being that he had just purchased a .380 about 2 weeks prior.

As I learn more, I'll keep everyone updated.

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Wow!

Thanks, and please do keep us updated.

One of the main reasons for my friend looking to purchase this new weapon is that he's working on getting his CCDW in the near future. Knowing this, I suggested taht he contact KSP and see if they might be able to shine any light upon what might've caused this issue.

He contacted them, I didn't get the name of the supervisor that he talked with but he said that they were very nice and understanding of the situation and even did a general overview (NICS) check on him to see if anything showed up and just as he had repaeatedly told me, it was clean with the exception his reporting of a break-in which of course wouldn't cause them to deny his 4473 for the new weapon. The trooper even went as far as to suggest taht my friend go to another gun store and try to make a purchase, hinting that perhaps it was something about the gun shop he had gone to.

He still needs to go through the voluntary appeal process, or at least start it. If the store pulled something hinky (like realizing they had underpriced the gun and wanting to back out), this would turn up quickly. Not to the buyer, perhaps, but to the ATF.

I can assure you this has nothing to do with the dealer, it is the feds system or some other problem. If the dealer wanted to raise the price, all they will say is we are raising the price, there is no law that says just cause they say a price that it is legally binding. As far as purchasing two guns in a short amount of time has nothing to do with it, i have bought handguns 2 or 3 days in a row on a couple different ocassions and my 4473 was never denied, nor has it ever been. I always put my social on the form, because if you do not put it on it is very easy to be mistaken for someone else...if you share a name with any felon, etc. thats an automatic wait. The best way around this is to get your cdwl, in KY there is no excuse not to get one, and now that nevada and soon to be wisconsin honors our license, that brings the total number of states that honor our licenses up to 37 or 38, which is great. I have always wanted to go to vegas but never have because i would never go and be unable to protect myself, now I can, yeaaa. Ask him if he put his social on the form, if he did then he will have to go through the trouble of getting this resolved....

UPDATE - 08-26-11:

My friend has attempted to make contact and resolve this issue with the agency that he was given but to only learn that his appeal would take in excess of 370 days! *LOL* Typical government fast-track. *LOL*

At my urging, I strongly suggested that he go to a different gun shop and try again, he did and it went through! Apparently, the other gun shop was reckless in their hurry to process his paperwork and therefore made a serious error.

neuroblades said:

At my urging, I strongly suggested that he go to a different gun shop and try again, he did and it went through! Apparently, the other gun shop was reckless in their hurry to process his paperwork and therefore made a serious error.

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Thanks for the update. I'm glad your buddy got the peace of mind that came with successfully completing the NICS check at a different store.

That tells me that there was a mistake made. If he correctly filled out the 4473 that was rejected, then either the clerk calling it in, or the person on the other end, made a mistake. People simply don't go from approved, to denied, to approved. Whoever was "denied" was someone other than your friend. Transposing numbers or making a mistake when reading out the name can result in mistakes like that.