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Thread: Anyone know the facts of this old case?

  1. #1
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    Anyone know the facts of this old case?

    I was on another forum discussing OC when I got this old case thrown up as proof of the "tactical advantage" of CC. I realize it is an old case but does anyone know any of the facts or how it turned out.

    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/...wtonPatton.htm


    Thanks for any info.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    First I've even heard of this one.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
    -- George Washington

  3. #3
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The news release is from 2006 - do not recall this one at all.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  4. #4
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Well there you have it, OCing will just get your gun stolen. We should outlaw OC. Good thing there aren't any car crashes, we'd have to outlaw cars. Or armed robberies, we'd have to outlaw weapons. Or drownings, we'd have to outlaw swimming.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  5. #5
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Well there you have it, OCing will just get your gun stolen. We should outlaw OC. Good thing there aren't any car crashes, we'd have to outlaw cars. Or armed robberies, we'd have to outlaw weapons. Or drownings, we'd have to outlaw swimming.
    Don't give 2A4All any ideas
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ter-quot/page3

  6. #6
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I fully realize that most of us are "choir", but for those who are sitting in the back, or who may be dropping by for a visit, here are the "facts" of this case:

    A gun used as a self-defense tools is not a magic wand that makes crime and criminals go away. It is exactly that, a tool.

    If it were a magic wand, then no LEOs would ever be killed in the line of duty. No legally carrying, law-abiding citizens would ever need to use their gun in actual self-defense.

    Unfortunately, the evil ones in the world we live (which dictates that we need these tools for our self-defense) sometimes prevail no matter what we do. Does that mean we should just stop trying? Of course not.

    The simple fact in this case is that the victim was not maintaining sufficient situational awareness. He likely would have been just as robbed if he had been carrying concealed, so that certainly isn't the solution. If he had been walking along with a fully armed police officer who was not paying any more attention than he was, then they would have both been robbed.

    Case in point, just a few years back, we had a police officer killed in an ambush here in Fredericksburg. Not only was he open carrying, he was looking for the bad guy. If a LEO on the hunt can sometimes lose to a bad guy, you certainly can't make any sort of generic policy decisions for the general populations about OC vs. CC.

    TFred

  7. #7
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    To extend or FredT's excellent summary:

    In any physical endeavor, people keep thinking that the way to win is by being big, tough, strong, knowing a 'secret', or having 'gear' or a weapon.

    The real answer is:
    1. Training method. You must have an effective training method to use your skill or tool, be it a physical tool or a skill (tool). Your training must be "alive" (resistance, timing, footwork and unrehearsed (force-on-force, plus).
    2. Your ability to 'fight' with the 'weapon' (or skill). People with a gun who do not know how to fight with that gun will not be (as) effective.
    3. Your mental approach - can you do it, can you react
    4. Moral highground - If you are a somewhat moral person and you enter into a 'fight'/confrontation and you are not sure if you have the moral highground, you will not be able to fully react and fully engage.
    5. Functionalizing your skill. You may know 20 ways to throw, shoot or armbar an opponent but unless you can bring that to bear during a fully resisting opponent, you will not have functionalized your skill. You will not 'remember it' under the stress of combat. You can teach a person who is not a fighter how to jab, cross and uppercut on the bag, but put him/her in the ring and they slap wildly at the opponent when being hit at the same time.
    ...and so forth. Attributes only mean so much. A big strong Arnold, with training, STILL could not swing a sword effectively in the first Conan movie.

    $.02
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 08-13-2011 at 02:25 PM.
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    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

  8. #8
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    My thoughts,

    He should have had a back up gun. ( If he had a CHP )
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    My thoughts,

    He should have had a back up gun. ( If he had a CHP )
    I am seriously having a difficult time understanding how the presence of a back-up gun would have changed the outcome of the incident. I ask that you explain to me how having a back-up gun would have changed the outcome - except that possibly two guns would have been stolen instead of only one.

    Thanks in advance.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  10. #10
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I am seriously having a difficult time understanding how the presence of a back-up gun would have changed the outcome of the incident. I ask that you explain to me how having a back-up gun would have changed the outcome - except that possibly two guns would have been stolen instead of only one.

    Thanks in advance.

    stay safe.
    with CHP back up gun is hiden, he could have stopped them when they turned around and walked off. He was then was defenseless.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  11. #11
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I am seriously having a difficult time understanding how the presence of a back-up gun would have changed the outcome of the incident. I ask that you explain to me how having a back-up gun would have changed the outcome - except that possibly two guns would have been stolen instead of only one.

    Thanks in advance.

    stay safe.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    with CHP back up gun is hiden, he could have stopped them when they turned around and walked off. He was then was defenseless.
    So he pulls his BUG (and points it at them) after they turn their backs and start to walk away?

    Now he's the threat, and could be shot with his own weapon as they act in self defense. Not good.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  12. #12
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Well there you have it, OCing will just get your gun stolen. We should outlaw OC. Good thing there aren't any car crashes, we'd have to outlaw cars. Or armed robberies, we'd have to outlaw weapons. Or drownings, we'd have to outlaw swimming.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Well, here's an idea: Fire the life guards!
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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