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Thread: !Asking the OC Question at CT police Commission Hearings Across the State!

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    !Asking the OC Question at CT police Commission Hearings Across the State!

    I was wondering how many members would be willing to attend local Police Comission Hearings and ask the OC question and post the transcript from the Minutes under this thread!


    We can Post dates and times of the hearing's for diffrent dept's on this thread, and the more that show up the merrier, I'd go to every one just to hear what "Management" Has to say, and let them know "What's Up!" The Chief from the towns is Usually there and could be asked to respond, on the record!

    It's free fun on the record and does not cost anything but time, and I'm sure some cool and Pompass Comissioners will be met, & and for the latter, put in their place for the record, and informed on the LAW!

    Here's how it Went Down in Berlin Last June 2010 Strait from the record!


    Exert from th Berlin, CT PD Police Comission Minutes listed on the Berlin Town Web Site PAGE 3 of 10 Paragraph #3:::: June 16, 2010 minutes::

    "Mr. GOOD CITIZEN stated that he would like to know what type of training Police Officers and Disbatchers had with carrying firearms in the open. Commissioner Peters stated that it was legal to carry a gun openly in public; however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "


    What do you got to say about that opencarry.org U bunch of trouble Makers, SOUND OFF

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    Fairfeild PD

    Fairfeild, CT

    THE POLICE COMMISSION WILL HOLD ITS MONTHLY MEETINGS AT POLICE HEADQUARTERS, 100 REEF ROAD, TRAINING ROOM. AT 4:30 P.M. ON THE SECOND WEDNESDAY OF THE MONTH.

    Meetings are held at 4:30 p.m. at Police Headquarters

    From the website

    They make rules and regulations consistent with the General Statutes and the Charter for the governance of the Police Department and its personnel, and may prescribe penalties for violations of its rules and regulations;

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    Hamden, PD

    HAMDEN, CT PD


    The following is a list of dates for meetings for the Hamden Police Commission for the balance o the calendar year 2011. The meetings are held on the second Wednesday of each month at 6:30 p.m. in the Miller Library Complex Activity Room.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011
    Wednesday, October 12, 2011
    Wednesday, November 9, 2011
    Wednesday, December 14, 2011

    CURRENT MEMBERS (UPDATED 6/30/11)

    Judith Kozak
    Gerald Migliaro
    Raenne Curtis
    Michael Iezzi
    Reginald A. Higgins

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    Trumbell

    Trumbell, CT PD

    POLICE COMMISSION
    JACK TESTANI, CHAIRMAN
    ANNA HENRY, VICE CHAIRMAN
    ALFRED LIGGINS, SECRETARY
    PHILIP DIGENNARO, COMMISSIONEr

    WILLIAM MURPHY, COMMISSIONER
    ALBERT ZAMARY, COMMISSIONER
    THOMAS H. KIELY
    CHIEF OF POLICE
    TRUMBULL POLICE DEPARTMENT
    POLICE COMMISSION MEETING SCHEDULE
    2011

    SEPTEMBER 13TH
    OCTOBER 11TH
    NOVEMBER 8TH
    DECEMBER 13TH
    ALL POLICE COMMISSION MEETINGS ARE HELD ON THE SECOND TUESDAY
    OF THE MONTH AT TRUMBULL TOWN HALL, LONGHILL CONFERENCE
    ROOM. CALL TO ORDER IS 7:00PM.

    From the website

    B. Powers and duties. The Commission shall have general management and control of the Police Department and all apparatus, equipment and premises owned or used by the Town for police purposes, and shall have the powers conferred or imposed by law on Police Commissions.
    The Commission shall fix the number of members of the Department and designate one who shall be Chief of Police. The Chief of Police shall be the chief administrative officer of the Department and shall be responsible to the Commission for the efficiency of the Department and the execution of all laws, rules and regulations prescribed by statute or Town ordinance, or by the Commission. The Commission shall make such rules for the government of the Police Department as it may deem necessary consistent with the provisions hereto.

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    New Canaan

    New Canaan


    Police Commission meetings are held the third Wednesday of each month at 6:00P.M. at police headquarters, 174 South Avenue.

    Except for executive sessions, meetings are open to the public. The meetings allow the Commissioners to review monthly departmental reports and address requests from the townspeople. Updates on the state of the Police Department are reviewed, and the Commissioners are informed of the accomplishments of the police officers, letters of appreciation or condemnation, training received and other issues pertinent to the internal order of the Department.

    Anyone who would like to address the Police Commission should contact the Chief's Secretary at 203-594-3512.

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    Stonington, CT

    Stonington, CT

    Bd. of Police Comm.
    Thursday, September 8 at 5:00 PM
    Police Dept. Community Room, 173 So. Broad St., Pawcatuck

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    Simsbury

    Simsbury

    Police Commission
    4th Tuesday
    7:30PM
    Police Dept. Training Room

    NAME
    TERM
    Mr. Carl D. Eisenman
    2015
    Mr. Edward M. Cosgrove
    2013
    Mr. Michael T. Long, Chair
    2015
    Mr. Harvey J. Goodfriend
    2013
    Mr. Brendan M. Walsh, Clerk
    2012
    Chief Peter Ingvertsen

    Mr. Robert S. Hensley, BOS Liaison



    4-Year Term - January - 5 Regular Members

    Created by Charter in 1992, the Commission has direct responsibility for citizen matters, budgetary concerns, personnel matters, and collective bargaining matters. The Commission serves as the final authority for all personnel and disciplinary matters within the Police Department. The Commission is also charged with the responsibility of investigating all citizen complaints against members of the Police Department.

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    North Haven

    North Haven


    Police Commission Aug 23rd 2011

    No other info provided would have to call and find out when it is?

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    Watertown

    Watertown



    Title
    Police Commission
    Start Time 7:00 PM
    Location
    Watertown Police Department
    Occurs
    9/14/2011

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    Madison, CT

    Madison


    Board of Police Commissioners
    Time: 5:30pm EST
    Location: Training / Community Room @ The Dept of Police Services

    AGENDA
    http://www.madisonct.org/Police_Dept/agenda.htm

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    New Britain

    New Britain



    Members of the Board of Police Commissioners:
    Michael W. Wanik , Chair
    Edwin B. Mercier, Jr., Vice Chair
    Roger F. Coyle


    Howard B. Dyson
    Marco A. Villa

    The Board of Police Commissioners meets at 7:00PM on the 3rd Tuesday of each month at 125 Columbus Blvd.

    *Please note that meetings are subject to change. Verify meeting dates and locations with the Town Clerk's Office, located on the 1st Floor of City Hall or at (860) 826-3344.

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    Bristol

    Bristol



    Title
    Police Board 6:00
    Start Time 6:00 PM
    End Time 7:00 PM (1 hour)
    Location
    City Hall Meeting Room 1
    Occurs
    The third Tuesday of every month from 11/15/2010 to 12/31/2011


    ???Looks like Aug 16th????

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    Newington, Ct

    Newington, Ct


    5. Tuesday, September 12, 2011
    6. Monday, October 3, 2011
    7. Monday, November 7, 2011
    8. Monday, December 5, 2011
    9. Tuesday, January 9, 2012
    10. Monday, February 6, 2012
    11. Monday, March 5, 2012
    12. Monday, April 2, 2012 (Organizational Meeting)
    NOTE: All meetings are at 4:00 p.m. at the Newington Police Station unless otherwise indicated

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    Southington

    Southington

    Title
    Board of Police Commissioners
    Start Time 6:00 PM
    Location
    Police Headquarters Community Room, 69 Lazy Lane
    Occurs
    The second Thursday of every month from 1/13/2011 to 12/8/2011
    Extra Details for entire event
    This is a regularly scheduled meeting.
    ________________________________________

    9-8-11

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    I am not really opposed to this, but I think it could be a little sketchy and not sure it is going to produce results.

    I am of the opinion that if this is going to be done, we should write a formal document asserting the legality, what is to be expected based on the law (essentially the DPS -> State Police memo) and request it is read during the meeting.

    It should not be left to the people who don't know the law to state their opinion. That is already what we are fighting against.

    This can also have the feel of 'asking permission', which is not the case. No 'permission' is needed.

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    I am not really opposed to this, but I think it could be a little sketchy and not sure it is going to produce results.

    Any officer Who reads the Minutes Will Be informed.


    EX. If Department X has 100 officers & those officers read the police minutes for the month, and information is put on record, information that they may not know or never viewed in the context that will be presented of unconditional legality, including the disproving of the Breech of Peace myth, I think the impact could be measured in that way, directly impacting any front line employee’s that read it and make the decisions to exercise powers of arrest in the field

    I don’t know how a bigger impact could be made “NOW” for free, with the potential to reach 1000’s of front line officers, other than a court case or cases that are years off & 10 of thousands of dollars away, this will get buzz in the Department going and will probably piss some people off, some of these are very small meeting’s where the commissions and the police way out number the public, in the back of the police station, they will gang up, and try to bully their opinions.


    I am of the opinion that if this is going to be done, we should write a formal document asserting the legality, what is to be expected based on the law (essentially the DPS -> State Police memo) and request it is read during the meeting.


    I am in full agreement, a Formal letter could be written referencing State statues, any State Police Memo's, and current BOFE hearing transcript in pertinent part, and put on the record!

    It should not be left to the people who don't know the law to state their opinion. That is already what we are fighting against.

    I fully agree, I do not plan on asking, but asserting legal documents onto the record, and “combating opinion” that is in control of 1000’s of officers with powers of arrest, across the state.


    [CENTER]This can also have the feel of 'asking permission', which is not the case. No 'permission' is needed.[/CENTER]

    Just the opposite, There is no permission being asked, just a particular action being taken to correct the record and officially brief ,"Management" on the law, and get it on record so officers of those departments can get the facts (if the minutes are viewed), & not rely solely on supervisors biased thwarted opinions. This record that would be created would leave no wiggling room for the persecution of OC’ers going forward. It would create “evidence” of Departmental awareness that is undeniable, and the recognition of illegal action, based on “no Law” the next time someone is arrested for open carry.

    Furthermore it is a “demand” saying I don’t care about your opinion, or what you have to say, to some people with some pretty big ego’s, and that’s normally all that matters is their opinions, you are walking into there house where there in charge of 100’s of officers and multimillion dollar budgets, and have direct control, & probably a strong opinion about the subject (usually all former officers of those departments), and “LAYING DOWN THE LAW LITERALLY”, You are entering the proverbial dragons layer!

    If I had the Dough I would retain Attny Doug Hall as the former XO of the firearms unit, to go in and brief, the legality, as one of there own he may be better received. His former colleague Det Mattson is in constant contact with Local dept.’s She is the subject matter “Bais” expert according to Hall’s memo, what I witnessed first hand and she is anti gun to the Max!


    I’m willing to attend any town meeting with anyone!
    Last edited by Good Citizen; 08-15-2011 at 08:59 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I hope you do not mind an outsider stepping in for a quick comment.

    Looking at
    Mr. GOOD CITIZEN stated that he would like to know what type of training Police Officers and Disbatchers had with carrying firearms in the open.
    I would suggest a slight editing so that it reads: "Given that Connecticutt law states <insert appropriate citation(s)> and the published opinion(s) of the <insert name of firearms board and date of the opinion(s) they published> that open carry of handguns by persons <insert list of all hoops necessary and permits/papers needed> is not illegal, I ask what training the members of X Police Department - both sworn officers, dispatchers, and other support staff - are given, both during initial training and during mandatory in-service or informal training such as roll-call briefings, regarding the practice of open carry of handguns by law-abiding citizens. I would like to know what policies control the training as well as the general content of the training, and how to obtain a copy of the specific lesson plans used in each type of training session. If this information cannot be provided at this time, I request that it be made a part of this body's official record as an amendment to the minutes of this meeting at the time it is provided."

    Put them on the spot as needing to refute your citations if they disagree that they apply. Put them on the spot about needing to address in-service and roll-call-type training as well as whatever is done at the police academy. Put them on the spot for revealing and documenting the exact training they are providing to the line staff, dispatchers, and all the other employees. Put them on the spot by making it a part of the minutes no matter how long it takes to gather up the materials needed to respond.

    Just a thought.

    stay safe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    Any officer Who reads the Minutes Will Be informed.
    But of what? The Chief's opinion on the law? They are hopefully already well informed of this. It does us no good if the Chief is as opposed to freedom as Wallingford's Chief Dortenzio and insists that every OCer be harassed and investigated for crimes.



    I don’t know how a bigger impact could be made “NOW” for free, with the potential to reach 1000’s of front line officers, other than a court case or cases that are years off & 10 of thousands of dollars away, this will get buzz in the Department going and will probably piss some people off, some of these are very small meeting’s where the commissions and the police way out number the public, in the back of the police station, they will gang up, and try to bully their opinions.
    Again, I am not opposed, but I did provide my opinion on how this should be done if people are going to do it. Court cases will mandate that LEOs follow the law, but education in the meantime is not a bad thing. Again, my concern is that all it is doing is giving the Chief a platform to express his ignorance or arrogance in some cases. We saw the kind of document Chief Dortenzio put out, is that what you want all the Chiefs to be giving to their officers?

    I fully agree, I do not plan on asking, but asserting legal documents onto the record, and “combating opinion” that is in control of 1000’s of officers with powers of arrest, across the state.
    I think if the document is well constructed and written, then we don't need any other comment. If the chiefs decide to ignore it or state contrary opinions to it, that is fine. That will be on the record for any future legal dealings. Courts will not look kindly upon officers or chiefs who were informed of the laws and chose to ignore them or go against them.

    Just the opposite, There is no permission being asked, just a particular action being taken to correct the record and officially brief ,"Management" on the law, and get it on record so officers of those departments can get the facts (if the minutes are viewed), & not rely solely on supervisors biased thwarted opinions. This record that would be created would leave no wiggling room for the persecution of OC’ers going forward. It would create “evidence” of Departmental awareness that is undeniable, and the recognition of illegal action, based on “no Law” the next time someone is arrested for open carry.
    Meh, I think you are being overly optimistic here. The Chiefs and the towns already have a duty to train their officers. Most of them know the laws as they are stated, but some don't 'like' OC and will harass an OCer. That is always going to be the case. The only way to prevent that is to make sure they understand the penalties for doing so. And right now, there are none on record. After one of the current cases is set down as case law, that will be the time to really get the word out.

    If I had the Dough I would retain Attny Doug Hall as the former XO of the firearms unit, to go in and brief, the legality, as one of there own he may be better received. His former colleague Det Mattson is in constant contact with Local dept.’s She is the subject matter “Bais” expert according to Hall’s memo, what I witnessed first hand and she is anti gun to the Max!
    It would be interesting to have a LEO firearms law class in CT, but it would not be easy to get LEOs on board and listening.

  19. #19
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    It would be interesting to have a LEO firearms law class in CT, but it would not be easy to get LEOs on board and listening.
    It would be interesting. Though I think, like school teachers, they tune out after a certain age and can't "learn" anything or relearn anything.

    I know some that would probably think it a good idea, but I know A LOT more that think they know the law (wrong or otherwise) and would want to have nothing of it.

    I do like Skidmarks comment though.

    I know the Secretary of the BFPE was thinking of addressing the issue at the police chiefs association (I think in a workshop). I'll try to get his feedback after I address the board in the coming weeks. I'm taking data from my suitability study and showing them where there are tons of issues in the local "fiefdoms".

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    But of what? The Chief's opinion on the law? They are hopefully already well informed of this. It does us no good if the Chief is as opposed to freedom as Wallingford's Chief Dortenzio and insists that every OCer be harassed and investigated for crimes.
    Rich - A police chief stating on the record that open carry is legal and that he/she has informed the troops of this fact builds the case at least for a claim that an officer cannot take advantage of qualified immunity in the event that he is sued for violating the civil rights of an open carrier. That would leave the offending officer open to personal civil suit as opposed to a suit against the municipality only.
    Last edited by GunTotingLawyer; 08-15-2011 at 05:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GunTotingLawyer View Post
    Rich - A police chief stating on the record that open carry is legal and that he/she has informed the troops of this fact builds the case at least for a claim that an officer cannot take advantage of qualified immunity in the event that he is sued for violating the civil rights of an open carrier. That would leave the offending officer open to personal civil suit as opposed to a suit against the municipality only.
    You are assuming that the Chief is going to state that OC is legal on the record. In my experience, they usually give the same hand waving nonsense that we get from Lt. Vance. "OC maybe legal, but if it alarms someone, it could be a breach of peace".


    And I don't think our skirmish line is still anywhere near 'Is OC legal or not'. We all know it is. The PDs know it is. The state know it is. The BFPE knows it is.

    The line is now at "Does disorderly conduct or breach of peace ever apply to a lawfully carried firearm?" and "Do the police have the right to detain or harass OCers?". We all know the answer to both questions is 'no', but the Chiefs are not yet going to agree to that. They certainly will not state it on record.

    The skirmish line has been moved, IMO we need to concentrate in the right areas to keep it moving.
    Last edited by Rich B; 08-15-2011 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    But of what? The Chief's opinion on the law? They are hopefully already well informed of this. It does us no good if the Chief is as opposed to freedom as Wallingford's Chief Dortenzio and insists that every OCer be harassed and investigated for crimes.


    [B]A comission meeting is a public hearing not only will the Cheif go on record but who ever is there, and what they have to say. If you go on record and bullet point BOFE's latest, State Police Memo, and state statue, your facts will be presented, and any thing the Cheif says can be recorded, and rebuted, offically! Like you said who care's what he says, it's OC it's legal. Could going to these meeting's "bring persicution" to oc'er's in these towns, well sure, but let's stop being theif's of virute and getting lucky while ocing that were not stoped by the wrong As* Ho*e. It's legal!B]


    Again, I am not opposed, but I did provide my opinion on how this should be done if people are going to do it. Court cases will mandate that LEOs follow the law, but education in the meantime is not a bad thing. Again, my concern is that all it is doing is giving the Chief a platform to express his ignorance or arrogance in some cases. We saw the kind of document Chief Dortenzio put out, is that what you want all the Chiefs to be giving to their officers?



    I plan on putting offical documents, on file, I dont care what the Cheif puts out afterward, A memo to arrest after offical records and documnets are presented, showing a total disregard for State Statue. If this draws a line in the sand then it is long over due, & in the end will get worked out. Like you say if it's legal who cares what he saids to his officers, I know tons of officers who HATE their Cheif, and other that Kiss his As* to get ahead!


    I think if the document is well constructed and written, then we don't need any other comment. If the chiefs decide to ignore it or state contrary opinions to it, that is fine. That will be on the record for any future legal dealings. Courts will not look kindly upon officers or chiefs who were informed of the laws and chose to ignore them or go against them.

    True

    Meh, I think you are being overly optimistic here. The Chiefs and the towns already have a duty to train their officers. Most of them know the laws as they are stated, but some don't 'like' OC and will harass an OCer. That is always going to be the case. The only way to prevent that is to make sure they understand the penalties for doing so. And right now, there are none on record. After one of the current cases is set down as case law, that will be the time to really get the word out.

    When the law is plainly presented and allow to be veiwed by officers to make their own decisions, in most cases it will be well recived not every LEO is an AS* HO*E, and Rouge. From a Social Engenerrinsg standpoint ALOT of cops hate their cheifs, especially in unionized depatments, he's the AS* HO*E, ball buster, and decideds to send out memo's of arrest based on a commission meeting, he may have just signed his own mutiny, I know LEO's that cant wait to throw there Cheif under the bus!


    It would be interesting to have a LEO firearms law class in CT, but it would not be easy to get LEOs on board and listening.
    I said nothing about an LEO class, i was Talking about retaing The former XO of the State Police firearms unit to go on record at the Police comission hearing, to set strait, from a subject matter expert, the law for the record, and to Piss in "Adolph Mattsons Cherios".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    You are assuming that the Chief is going to state that OC is legal on the record.
    I am not assuming but certainly hoping that a chief would admit such. If a police chief fails to admit what the law plainly is, then we have to go back to square one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    In my experience, they usually give the same hand waving nonsense that we get from Lt. Vance. "OC maybe legal, but if it alarms someone, it could be a breach of peace".
    The part about it being legal is good enough for me at least to make an argument that they knew that it was a legal activity and cannot shield themselves behind a shielf of immunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    The line is now at "Does disorderly conduct or breach of peace ever apply to a lawfully carried firearm?" and "Do the police have the right to detain or harass OCers?".
    I completely agree with you on this point. As you now know, however, the law moves slowly and in this area and state, painfully so. I am suggesting that we advance that cause by making detentions/arrests for open carry financially painful for officers. The best way to do that may be to chip away at the shield of immunity little by little by getting admissions from chiefs that the law allows open carrry. Even if they engage in "hand waiving" vis-a-vis BOP, we can start to show the absurdity of a detention and arrest for engaging in a legal activity.

    We have to advance the cause that you stated but think that the only way to do so is in court. Now if we could only find a test case.... hmmmm.... Chief after chief admiting at least that the action of open carry is not itself illegal, provides you with one more brick to build your wall against illegal action by the police -- i.e. detaining and arresting an open carrier for carrying only. The whole strategy is about piling evidence on top of evidence so that no LEO can, in good faith, claim that the BOP arrest was based solely on open carry and if he does so, he cannot be entitled to immunity in a subsequent lawsuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GunTotingLawyer View Post
    The part about it being legal is good enough for me at least to make an argument that they knew that it was a legal activity and cannot shield themselves behind a shielf of immunity.

    Chief after chief admiting at least that the action of open carry is not itself illegal, provides you with one more brick to build your wall against illegal action by the police -- i.e. detaining and arresting an open carrier for carrying only. The whole strategy is about piling evidence on top of evidence so that no LEO can, in good faith, claim that the BOP arrest was based solely on open carry and if he does so, he cannot be entitled to immunity in a subsequent lawsuit.
    Admission #1

    This Statement Was Made on Record by

    Berlin Police Chairman Robert Peters,

    Former State Senator,
    Multiple Term Berlin Mayor and
    30 yr Berlin Police Officer, & Chairman of the Berlin Police Commission



    Exert from the Berlin, CT PD Police Commission Minutes listed on the Berlin Town Web Site PAGE 3 of 10 Paragraph #3:::: June 16, 2010 minutes::

    "Mr. GOOD CITIZEN stated that he would like to know what type of training Police Officers and Dispatchers had with carrying firearms in the open. Commissioner Peters stated that it was legal to carry a gun openly in public; however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "


    That Last Statement can be interpreted a lot of different ways! ??Experience, A Threat??

    Pretty Powerful statement by an Established, Member of the Community (Mayor, State Senator, 30 yr officer,)…… if you are taken down for OC’in in Berlin, CT, I bet any lawyer would love to have a statement like this, if representing an OC’er Arrested in Berlin! Or for some type of Suit Somewhere in the State!

  25. #25
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Citizen View Post
    [/B] however, he would not do it. He stated that any average citizen seeing someone carrying a gun in the open that wasn't wearing a badge would be: nervous and that a prudent person wouldn't carry openly unless they were looking for trouble„ "
    After being on the range with some of 'em.... I'm more scared of them than the average citizen!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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