• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

well need help writing a letter to emagin in canton

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
Hello oc world, today I decided to get myself an audio recorder and boy I’m glad I did. First the day started with me ocing to radio shack for a recorder that cost $41 and a mic that cost 25. When I went to pay I noticed that the prices were missed tagged for 19 and 18. “Winning” they gave me the items for that price.
Now on to Emagine theater in canton. As I entered the theater I scanned for a sign that said it is Pfz/ no weapons allowed. I did not see any of them. I was able to by my ticket and make my way to the concession stand before a manager approached me. As he approached me he told me I was breaking the law, being that the theater seats more than 2500 people. I explained to him that it was not against the law to Oc w/Cpl. He stated that he was unsure of the law so I handed him a tri fold. He looked it over before saying he would have to call the police to verify the information I gave him was correct. I then asked him if he wanted me to leave because he was concerned that I was breaking the law or because it was private property. He said because he thinks I’m breaking the law. I ensured him I was not breaking the law but if he wanted me to leave because of his private property rules I could not stop him. He then said well it’s because of private property rules. He refunded my money and told me to call his dm to get this handled the correct way: this is because I informed him that there must be a weapons free sign post at the front entrance of the movie’s. As I left I was stopped by another manager who said that I was wrong and to look at the law, he looked up mcl28.425o I explained to him that Mcl 28.425o and Mcl 750.234d sec 2-c works together. He said ok and returned back inside.

All and all it went ok. I’m glad I was able to leave without the police being called.

I need help loading the audio it’s too staticy is there a program that can extract just the talking.
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
i fixed it now the problem im haveing is converting it ffrom wav to mp3.. or a web site that lets me upload wav
 

Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
He refunded my money and told me to call his dm to get this handled the correct way: this is because I informed him that there must be a weapons free sign post at the front entrance of the movie’s. As I left I was stopped by another manager who said that I was wrong and to look at the law, he looked up mcl28.425o I explained to him that Mcl 28.425o and Mcl 750.234d sec 2-c works together. He said ok and returned back inside.

Good report and glad to see you got a recorder to use when OC-ing.

But...

1. I'm opposed to 'informing' these managers on how to make their theater or place of business a GFZ. Why tell them how to prevent others from coming in and maybe prevent CC-ing? Let them figure it out and don't HELP THEM. Sheesh.

2. The second manager stopped you on the way out. STOPPED YOU? He's not a LEO. IGNORE HIM. Instead you helped him. Why? They're a-holes who won't defend the constitution which people have died to defend. Stop helping these morons. :)

otherwise ok.
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
Good report and glad to see you got a recorder to use when OC-ing.

But...

1. I'm opposed to 'informing' these managers on how to make their theater or place of business a GFZ. Why tell them how to prevent others from coming in and maybe prevent CC-ing? Let them figure it out and don't HELP THEM. Sheesh.

2. The second manager stopped you on the way out. STOPPED YOU? He's not a LEO. IGNORE HIM. Instead you helped him. Why? They're a-holes who won't defend the constitution which people have died to defend. Stop helping these morons. :)

otherwise ok.

this was my first time being turned around, over all it went well. now i will start writeing a letter to them to try to get them to allow oc/cpl.. any info that will help me when writeing this please all do share.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Good report and glad to see you got a recorder to use when OC-ing.

But...

1. I'm opposed to 'informing' these managers on how to make their theater or place of business a GFZ. Why tell them how to prevent others from coming in and maybe prevent CC-ing? Let them figure it out and don't HELP THEM. Sheesh.

2. The second manager stopped you on the way out. STOPPED YOU? He's not a LEO. IGNORE HIM. Instead you helped him. Why? They're a-holes who won't defend the constitution which people have died to defend. Stop helping these morons. :)

otherwise ok.

Seriously? Really? :banghead:

Regardless of why, an agent of the propertry owner has requested an individual to leave. Refusing to do so is trespass. If the manager calls the cops they probably (this is thankfully not Canton, Ohio, home of the cop that threatened to execute somebody while being recorded by his own dash camera) will want the manager to repeat the request to leave before arresting him for trespass.

Opposing the legal request of the manager to leave the property is not how "we" go about educating the public that those that open carry are law-abiding, responsible citizens who present no reason to be feared merely for openly carrying a handgun.

I agree that "we" should not make it easier for folks to set up GFZs by citing the law that they must abide by in order to do that. Far better to let them continue to fail to meet the legal requirement(s).

A letter to the dm (district manager?) explaining why you and your family will no longer patronize the place, and why you will encourage everyone you know not to patronize it, is more effective than telling the dm his theater does not comply with the law and how to bring it into compliance.

Whether or not you like the idea, you are an "ambassador" for the OC movement (whatever that is) every time you are out in public. Please do not be an Ugly American http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American .

stay safe.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Please pardon my manners. I was so worked up that I forgot to welcome you to OCDO.

No, I am not the official Welcome Wagon hostess. It's just good manners to say "Welcome" to someone who seems to have just recently arrived.

stay safe.
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
Seriously? Really? :banghead:

Regardless of why, an agent of the propertry owner has requested an individual to leave. Refusing to do so is trespass. If the manager calls the cops they probably (this is thankfully not Canton, Ohio, home of the cop that threatened to execute somebody while being recorded by his own dash camera) will want the manager to repeat the request to leave before arresting him for trespass.

Opposing the legal request of the manager to leave the property is not how "we" go about educating the public that those that open carry are law-abiding, responsible citizens who present no reason to be feared merely for openly carrying a handgun.

I agree that "we" should not make it easier for folks to set up GFZs by citing the law that they must abide by in order to do that. Far better to let them continue to fail to meet the legal requirement(s).

A letter to the dm (district manager?) explaining why you and your family will no longer patronize the place, and why you will encourage everyone you know not to patronize it, is more effective than telling the dm his theater does not comply with the law and how to bring it into compliance.

Whether or not you like the idea, you are an "ambassador" for the OC movement (whatever that is) every time you are out in public. Please do not be an Ugly American http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American .

stay safe.

i keep replaying this in my head, and thinking what i could of done to better the issue.. over all only thing i think i should of did diff was not tell him how to ban me. i would like to upload the audio as well , he says his company follows the state law. at that point should i had left because he was misinformed? he was allowing me to take my seat while he called the police, i told him i would just leave over bring the police in to the situation..
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Good report and glad to see you got a recorder to use when OC-ing.

But...

1. I'm opposed to 'informing' these managers on how to make their theater or place of business a GFZ. Why tell them how to prevent others from coming in and maybe prevent CC-ing? Let them figure it out and don't HELP THEM. Sheesh.

2. The second manager stopped you on the way out. STOPPED YOU? He's not a LEO. IGNORE HIM. Instead you helped him. Why? They're a-holes who won't defend the constitution which people have died to defend. Stop helping these morons. :)

otherwise ok.

I second everything written here. I think you did fine up until the point you mentioned that, although what you were doing was in fact legal, you gave advice as to how to totally avoid the issue of its legality. My concern is that, reading what was written about the incident, it could appear that you wanted to be asked to leave. I don't think that this is the case; after all, what could be gained? My only suggestion is that if something like this happens again, end the discussion when you are ahead.
 
Last edited:

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
I second everything written here. I think you did fin[SUB][/SUB]e up until the point you mentioned that, although what you were doing was in fact legal, you gave advice as to how to totally avoid the issue of its legality. My concern is that, reading what was written about the incident, it could appear that you wanted to be asked to leave. I don't think that this is the case; after all, what could be gained? My only suggestion is that if something like this happens again, end the discussion when you are ahead.

yea i did not wnat to leave i was taking my wife out on a date.. i live in romulus and was in canton, so it was a lil drive. i called before comming in and asked if they had a policy and they said it was to follow state law.. i guess when i should up they had a policy "the one in his head." even after looking over there rules there is no mention of this
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
yea i did not wnat to leave i was taking my wife out on a date.. i live in romulus and was in canton, so it was a lil drive. i called before comming in and asked if they had a policy and they said it was to follow state law.. i guess when i should up they had a policy "the one in his head." even after looking over there rules there is no mention of this

I understand the belief that a telephone call avoids the possibility of ruining an evening out; as you found out, asking didn't help.
What many here have found is that it is often better to go about your business as you normally would. I never call ahead, look up firearm policies on line, or look for signs prohibiting firearms. Why would I want to receive notice and bolster a charge of trespassing, no matter how remote that possibility is?

Like I said, I do understand the motive and remember how, as a person new to OC, I thought everyone's eyes were on me and my pistol. What I soon discovered is that many people seldom even notice that I am carrying a pistol.

PS. Please excuse my rudeness in not welcoming you. In all honesty, I'm using my phone to write this and can't see how many previous posts you have. For some reason, your on-line name seemed familiar and I thought you'd been here a while. Also, if you don't want to reinvent the wheel, do a little reading here and you will probably find an example of a letter that has been used for situations such as yours. Also, feel free to PM me if you would like someone to proofread your letter.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
yea i did not wnat to leave i was taking my wife out on a date.. i live in romulus and was in canton, so it was a lil drive. i called before comming in and asked if they had a policy and they said it was to follow state law.. i guess when i should up they had a policy "the one in his head." even after looking over there rules there is no mention of this

First.. welcome! Stick around, ask questions, take advantage of all the knowledge and info on the site..... and don't let those who nay say or are obnoxious get under your internet skin.

One of the things folks miss about what I highlighted in blue in your post is....

There are many aspects of "State Law"... firearms laws are just one aspect... there are also laws that govern the private property right to "trespass" people the property owner/owner's representative decides should not be allowed on the property. And, aside from a few protected classes of people.... race being one of them... a property owner can be following State Law and require someone to leave. If they don't immediately leave the property owner can follow State Law and have them arrested for trespassing.

Hence... a policy of following State Law does NOT automatically mean the State's firearms laws are the only one's being followed.

The full text of the following State Law can be read here:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(e34o23v5u1behh45aut1mb45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-552&query=on&highlight=trespass


THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.Sec. 552.
(1) A person shall not do any of the following:
(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

A word to the wise... when reading a law pay careful attention to the wording used.... and the legal definitions of words that are used. Such as the word "premises"... "premises" could mean every inch of property that property entails including the buildings, the lawn, and even a parking lot if there is one.

The full definition of "premises" can be found here:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/premises

premises n.

1) in real estate, land and the improvements on it, a building, store, shop, apartment, or other designated structure.

Disclaimer:
I am not now, nor have I ever been, and I do not aspire to be, an attorney. Hence the above is most assuredly NOT legal advice!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Dec 17, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
Grand Rapids
Seriously? Really? :banghead: , Skidmark?!? Read the post you replied to and the OP. The second manager stopped the open carrier AS HE WAS LEAVING! The first manager asked him to leave so that's what he was in the process of doing! Why in hell should the OP stop to talk to a second manager harassing him, when he was ALREADY COMPLYING with the first manager's request to leave?

Oh, good, I thought it was just me that noticed that....

If you want me to leave, don't invite me to stay, not even for a second.

Unless, of course, the sneaky bastige of a manager wanted to get security camera footage of the OP not leaving IMMEDIATELY to bolster a charge of trespassing......

Once asked, leave immediately. I wouldn't even stick around for a refund; just not worth it. Call them the next day for the refund.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
i keep replaying this in my head, and thinking what i could of done to better the issue.. over all only thing i think i should of did diff was not tell him how to ban me. i would like to upload the audio as well , he says his company follows the state law. at that point should i had left because he was misinformed? he was allowing me to take my seat while he called the police, i told him i would just leave over bring the police in to the situation..

This is what many people new to OC don't seem to realize: they can ban you and your firearm and follow state law at the same time. For example, my local Walmart has banned me if I carry my firearm in their store, despite claiming to follow state law. I personally know others who have carried there with no issues, and many on ocdo thought that if I contact Walmart, they will surely correct this manager. Well, I did, they won't. They say that they "follow state law" yet reserve the right to "ban" anyone they decide to, as long as doing so doesn't violate state or federal civil rights law. Even though, before the incident, I spent at least 300 dollars there per month on groceries, firearms, ammo, etc., I've been told I am welcome to shop there, but must lock my pistol in the car. Therefore, I refuse to shop at any Walmart...ever again.
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
hey guys thanks for all the great advice it is well needed, i have been oc for abotu 8 months and have never had this happen to me. o learned from it, i was unsure how to handle the 2nd manager so i just spoke with him and gave him a tri fold.

I will be writeing the dm, should i use this letter to educate him on the oc laws, or to enform him that he has lost a very loyal paying customer.
 

rvd4now

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
239
Location
down river
First.. welcome! Stick around, ask questions, take advantage of all the knowledge and info on the site..... and don't let those who nay say or are obnoxious get under your internet skin.

One of the things folks miss about what I highlighted in blue in your post is....

There are many aspects of "State Law"... firearms laws are just one aspect... there are also laws that govern the private property right to "trespass" people the property owner/owner's representative decides should not be allowed on the property. And, aside from a few protected classes of people.... race being one of them... a property owner can be following State Law and require someone to leave. If they don't immediately leave the property owner can follow State Law and have them arrested for trespassing.

Hence... a policy of following State Law does NOT automatically mean the State's firearms laws are the only one's being followed.

The full text of the following State Law can be read here:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(e34o23v5u1behh45aut1mb45))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-750-552&query=on&highlight=trespass


THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.Sec. 552.
(1) A person shall not do any of the following:
(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.
(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

A word to the wise... when reading a law pay careful attention to the wording used.... and the legal definitions of words that are used. Such as the word "premises"... "premises" could mean every inch of property that property entails including the buildings, the lawn, and even a parking lot if there is one.

The full definition of "premises" can be found here:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/premises

premises n.

1) in real estate, land and the improvements on it, a building, store, shop, apartment, or other designated structure.

Disclaimer:
I am not now, nor have I ever been, and I do not aspire to be, an attorney. Hence the above is most assuredly NOT legal advice!




i understand what is being said.. i wish i was able to get the audio loaded
 

stainless1911

Banned
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
8,855
Location
Davisburg, Michigan, United States
LOL, and here I was doing some research trying to find out if being asked to stay (2nd manager) negates the request to leave (by the 1st manager).

IIRC there is something I read that could be used to argue this point.

This is what many people new to OC don't seem to realize: they can ban you and your firearm and follow state law at the same time. For example, my local Walmart has banned me if I carry my firearm in their store, despite claiming to follow state law. I personally know others who have carried there with no issues, and many on ocdo thought that if I contact Walmart, they will surely correct this manager. Well, I did, they won't. They say that they "follow state law" yet reserve the right to "ban" anyone they decide to, as long as doing so doesn't violate state or federal civil rights law. Even though, before the incident, I spent at least 300 dollars there per month on groceries, firearms, ammo, etc., I've been told I am welcome to shop there, but must lock my pistol in the car. Therefore, I refuse to shop at any Walmart...ever again.

I had a similar experience in the Waterford School District. Although legal to OC at a school with a CPL, I am the only one who has been barred from exercising my rights, simply because I tried to educate them about the law. So, like DrTodd, I dont go there anymore.
 
Top