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Thread: One in the chamber

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    Regular Member Recoil88's Avatar
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    One in the chamber

    I was oc'ing at an appliance store the other day and the two guys there struck up a conversation with me about open carry.
    The one fella who said he thought about oc'ing sometime,mentioned to me that his state cop buddy told him that you can get in big trouble if you oc with a round in the chamber. Is this true? I have never heard of that before.
    In a situation when seconds count-The police will be there in minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoil88 View Post
    I was oc'ing at an appliance store the other day and the two guys there struck up a conversation with me about open carry.
    The one fella who said he thought about oc'ing sometime,mentioned to me that his state cop buddy told him that you can get in big trouble if you oc with a round in the chamber. Is this true? I have never heard of that before.
    It's true if his state cop buddy works in California (without a license/permit), otherwise no. There's no law in Michigan that prohibits a chambered round while OC or CC. Furthermore, since September 2004, other than using your pistol to hunt deer, there's no law that regulates the number of rounds (capacity) of your pistol.
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 08-15-2011 at 02:40 AM.

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    *edit*

    For edc, carring without a round chambered seems silly.

    I am not opposed to carrying without one in the pipe in some circumstances, especially for non cpl holders.
    Constantly loading and unloading a pistol increases the likelihood of a negligent/accidental discharge.

    One must weigh all the factors before making their decision.

    As far as legality, it's perfectly lawful. When a person insists that a certain activity is unlawful, ask them to provide a cite. The mi legislature website has an excellent search feature.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-15-2011 at 07:03 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Paper, rock, scissors - all are superior to UOC in my opinion.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Paper, rock, scissors - all are superior to UOC in my opinion.
    Although I tend to agree that uoc makes a pistol much less useful, Michigan law forces non cpl holders to unload before locking the pistol in the trunk anytime a person travels by vehicle. This may require a person to load/unload several times per day, significantly increasing the likelihood of a nd/ad.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 08-15-2011 at 07:33 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    Although I tend to agree that uoc makes a pistol much less useful, Michigan law forces non cpl holders to unload before locking the pistol in the trunk anytime a person travels by vehicle. This may require a person to load/unload several times per day, significantly increasing the likelihood of a nd/ad.
    While it does by nature increase the chances -- good discipline and consistent habits while unloading the firearm go a long way to prevent. I sleep with my XDm wrapped in a towel under my pillow. I don't sleep with it chambered thusly, so I unload in before I go to bed.

    I place my entire hand (index included) around the grip as one must activate the backstrap safety to manipulate the slide. After that I use my left hand to slowly but evenly work the slide. Slow is important because the chance exists that a live round's firing pin could hit the ejector and go off if pulled super fast. After the slide is back I allow the live round fall through the grip and land on a soft surface below.

    Muzzle control while unloading is obviously crucial.

    Safe procedures for your gun may differ!
    Last edited by TheQ; 08-15-2011 at 07:57 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Unloaded Gun == Paperweight

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    ....snip.... the chance exists that a live round's firing pin could hit the ejector and go off if pulled super fast.
    Translate please - that does not compute.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Translate please - that does not compute.
    Inside the chamber is an ejector knob (best I can describe it). The ejector claw pulls the shell backward and the rear side of the rim hits that knob which causes the round to go flying out. You may notice if you do it yourself that the knob is a mm or so away from the blasting cap when it hits the rear rim. If you pulled it fast and it instead struck the primer -- well, I'd hate to have my hand over the opened breach....

    ...your friends may be left to calling you "stumpy" the rest of your days.
    Last edited by TheQ; 08-15-2011 at 11:05 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    It's true if his state cop buddy works in California (without a license/permit), otherwise no. There's no law in Michigan that prohibits a chambered round while OC or CC. Furthermore, since September 2004, other than using your pistol to hunt deer, there's no law that regulates the number of rounds (capacity) of your pistol.
    I think Utah also requires that OC w/out a permit be done, as they call it, "so many steps" from being able to shoot. Also, I think the restriction on # of rounds applies only in the southern Michigan "shotgun-only zone" and only for deer hunting, but I could be wrong.

    BTW, have you ever noticed that almost every LEO or BG on TV racks their slide before going into action? LOL
    Last edited by DrTodd; 08-15-2011 at 11:22 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Inside the chamber is an ejector knob (best I can describe it). The ejector claw pulls the shell backward and the rear side of the rim hits that knob which causes the round to go flying out. You may notice if you do it yourself that the knob is a mm or so away from the blasting cap when it hits the rear rim. If you pulled it fast and it instead struck the primer -- well, I'd hate to have my hand over the opened breach....

    ...your friends may be left to calling you "stumpy" the rest of your days.
    If that is in fact a common condition for a XDm, I would never own one. In fairness, I have not heard of this before.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    BTW, have you ever noticed that almost every LEO or BG on TV racks their slide before going into action? LOL
    They have the advantage of having read the script, so they know when the action begins!

    The rest of us, not so much....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  13. #13
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Unloaded Gun == Paperweight
    I am unsure of the current regulations for the US Army but a empty chamber was the regulation for members of the Army for ages. While we do not have those regulations here in NC it really is only a split second from the holster to put a round in the chamber and fire. Unless a LEO there are only two reasons to draw, one to store the firearm, or two to fire whether on the range or the in self defense. If I lived in a state with such regulations where the gun had to be loaded and unloaded a gun with a decocking device or a revolver would be my choice. But I usually carry a revolver anyway. To be perfectly honest most people do not bother to be trained or train themselves with a 1911 that is why there are so many AD/ND with that weapon. Revolvers are just safer not because of the design but because of the person behind the gun.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Respectfully, I would suggest that you take a class that covers the operation of a firearm. Unless the ejector breaks off and jams between the face of the slide and the round, it is impossible for the ejector to hit the primer and set off the round. Look at it this way, do you REALLY think that it is POSSIBLE for you to manually pull the slade back faster and with more force than the action of the pistol when the round is fired? If your theory were even possible, let alone likely, but even possible, it would cause the gun to go full auto if it ever happened when firing the gun. I don't mean to be cruel in my post, but it just doesn't make sense that pulling the slide to the rear manually too quickly could cause an accidental discharge when you can't manually pull it with even a small fraction of the force and speed of the action caused by the round firing.
    True; I suspect he was thinking of a half-fast yank on the slide, which could result in the live round not clearing and getting cockeyed, but by that time, the slide would come forward covering the ejector pin. Anything is possible, caution is good, training and caution is better.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I think Utah also requires that OC w/out a permit be done, as they call it, "so many steps" from being able to shoot. Also, I think the restriction on # of rounds applies only in the southern Michigan "shotgun-only zone" and only for deer hunting, but I could be wrong.

    BTW, have you ever noticed that almost every LEO or BG on TV racks their slide before going into action? LOL
    They sometimes they even do it twice! Or there's the sound effect of racking the slide but no one racked their slide. lol
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    They have the advantage of having read the script, so they know when the action begins!

    The rest of us, not so much....
    Touche, Shadowbear, touche.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    I am unsure of the current regulations for the US Army but a empty chamber was the regulation for members of the Army for ages. While we do not have those regulations here in NC it really is only a split second from the holster to put a round in the chamber and fire. Unless a LEO there are only two reasons to draw, one to store the firearm, or two to fire whether on the range or the in self defense. If I lived in a state with such regulations where the gun had to be loaded and unloaded a gun with a decocking device or a revolver would be my choice. But I usually carry a revolver anyway. To be perfectly honest most people do not bother to be trained or train themselves with a 1911 that is why there are so many AD/ND with that weapon. Revolvers are just safer not because of the design but because of the person behind the gun.
    When I worked for a military contractor in Germany, I was armed with one in the chamber but the guard at the gate which I drove through everyday had an empty rifle.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    *edit*

    For edc, carring without a round chambered seems silly.

    I am not opposed to carrying without one in the pipe in some circumstances, especially for non cpl holders.
    Constantly loading and unloading a pistol increases the likelihood of a negligent/accidental discharge.

    One must weigh all the factors before making their decision.

    As far as legality, it's perfectly lawful. When a person insists that a certain activity is unlawful, ask them to provide a cite. The mi legislature website has an excellent search feature.
    Or one could just leave it loaded the entire time they are out and about, after all the only reason it your sidearm should come out of your holster is if you actually need it. Then it may be a little late to rack one into the pipe.

    Again suggest the carry of the tri-folds or cards when OCing, and a recorder (if legal in your state) ecspecially if you are OCing alone.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    Or one could just leave it loaded the entire time they are out and about, after all the only reason it your sidearm should come out of your holster is if you actually need it. Then it may be a little late to rack one into the pipe.

    Again suggest the carry of the tri-folds or cards when OCing, and a recorder (if legal in your state) ecspecially if you are OCing alone.
    Those of us without CPL's cannot. To transport the pistol in our vehicle it must be unloaded and in a container designed for transporting a pistol. Trust me it's not gun and really discourages OC if you are going in and out of a business.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  20. #20
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I hope the maker of this video does not mind me borrowing it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeIZa-25RaM But he seems to do well with his paperweight.

    It is not ideal but training, training and more training. If that does not work get some pepper spay.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Those of us without CPL's cannot. To transport the pistol in our vehicle it must be unloaded and in a container designed for transporting a pistol. Trust me it's not gun and really discourages OC if you are going in and out of a business.
    Agreed; know your state laws and follow them when OCing. If you don't have a CCW/CPL then you are at a disadvantage but must follow the laws. I say disadvantage due to the number of cases that either someone didn't have time to load his weapon or was holding on to something with one hand making it impossiable to pull the slide to rack a round with just one hand. For the buisnesses that discourage OCing I will go somewhere else to do buisness.

  22. #22
    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Flying over Iraq during the war, our aircrew would fly with sidearms fully loaded, including one in the chamber. After one flight, when the aircrew were unloading and counting rounds in the ready room, one aircrew came up one round short. We found the round in the cockpit, under the seat. The biggest question we had was that the round was missing from the magazine that was loaded into the gun! We could understand a round possibly coming out of an improperly loaded spare magazine, but the magazine loaded in the gun?!?
    I can't resist....It must have been an officer that had the issue most likely one of the pilots that lost the bullet....lol

    I had a crew chief once tell me, "you know doc have you ever noticed it takes a college education to break a plane but a high school education to fix a plane." I had to laugh before I realize how that translated to the medical field. Thank god they only gave me a 9mm pistol as my primary weapon in Iraq.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ....snip.... most people do not bother to be trained or train themselves with a 1911 that is why there are so many AD/ND with that weapon. Revolvers are just safer not because of the design but because of the person behind the gun.
    Cite please.

    I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please.

    I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.
    I concur. I have four 1911s and have handled them extensively along with my other handguns. Total number of NDs/ADs=0. The theory refuted by Grapeshot would lead one to believe that 1911s are dangerous to operate. Operators are dangerous, not the gun.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Cite please.

    I find the venerable 1911 to be an exceptional safe handgun, even in the hands of a novice. I will grant you that it is most often operator induced malflucktion when there is an unintended discharge. Still I do not see why the claim that the 1911 is more prone to this.
    You provided your own cite... This is one of the main reasons that for years police depts excluded automatics, that is until more revolver like autos were built. I like 1911's myself I have 1 and a star, that at times I carry. I also carried a 1911 as a LEO, and was trained with it. There are no safeties on most if not all double action revolvers. Loading and unloading does not consist of manipulating hammer or trigger.

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