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Thread: Open Carry, Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, and Leesburg PD.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Arrow Open Carry, Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, and Leesburg PD.

    All,

    Over the weekend a buddy of mine (not on the boards... yet) and I decided to see another movie at Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, in Leesburg VA. He and I have OC'ed there to see several movies in the last few weeks, and no one working there has remarked on my OC. On each occasion I've noticed that there is a Leesburg PD officer there, possibly moonlighting. On this occasion my buddy and I passed him strong sides on our way to get coffee. He immediately noticed our OC, and I acknowledged him with a friendly nod. As we waited in the concessions line to order some coffee, I observed the officer pointing us out to, what I would assume to be, a member of management. After a few moments of the manager and the officer looking our way and speaking to each other (kind of uncomfortable), my buddy and I paid for and took our coffee to a table and sat down. We were now around the corner from the officer and he no longer had direct line of sight with us.

    ** I have no recording. this is all to my best recollection **

    After about a minute, the officer approaches us and asks us what we are carrying. I'm thinking.. OK.. cool. this officer is just being friendly... and after a few minutes of just talking about firearms and handguns in general he the asks us for ID. This is where is went down hill for me. I initially refused, and I pointed out to him that in VA, "I only need to provide my name and city of residence". He then replied "I need to know that you are not a felon." to which I replied "Do you think a felon is going to Openly carry a firearm?" he stated / insisted that he must see our ID's, and that he was just trying to do his job. *not blaming my buddy here, but he is new to OC, and produced his ID* Once my buddy produced his ID, I then gave him mine, while saying "I know I don't have to do this, and something to the matter of 'I thought Leesburg PD was trained on OC'. " after he called in our info, and everything came back OK (DUH!!!!) We spoke for a few more minutes about laws in other states ( The officer was originally from NY and that explains A LOT). The Officer even jokingly said that one of the reasons this theater was great was that you can drink there, but that we could not since we were carrying. I corrected him by informing him that if you are OC, that you can drink, it's only CC, that you can not. At this time I realized that we only had a few minutes to get to our seats, and handed the officer one of Ed's OC cards.

    All in all not a horrible experience. I'll def. look into getting a voice recorder. I did learn one good thing. If the management of the Cobb theater had and issue or policy against carrying of firearms, we would have been asked to leave. If you live in Ashburn, Leesburg, or Sterling area of VA this is the ONLY theater that I know of that does not have a policy against OC or CC. Lets give them plenty of business!
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Bad Encounter.

    You should have stood your ground. OC is not RAS to determine nor INVESTIGATE legal status.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

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  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    You should have stood your ground. OC is not RAS to determine nor INVESTIGATE legal status.
    Yep, just say no!

    Then ask for his honorary or temporary Southern Pass. Bet he's here illegally! Wait....you said Leesburg, He's legal,

    All joking aside, giving in just makes it harder for everyone,
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-15-2011 at 04:35 PM.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Sorry I'm late.

    If he thinks you are a felon in possession, let him detain you and go through the steps to find out if he was right or not. That's what he gets paid for.

    I wonder how many folks piloting automobiles he stops because he thinks they are driving without a drivers license carried on their person, let alone if thay have had one issued to them and it presently unexpired. Or how many folks seen using a cell phone are the lawful owner of that device.

    Do I really need to extend the list?

    When you let this happen you make it easier for him to do it to the next person. And pretty soon he will start demanding to see proof of ownership of your cell phone under the reasoning that "it could be stolen". And he could be a jack-booted thug.

    It's difficult to stand up against intimidation, and it usually involves more than a little inconvenience to the plans you had already made. You may not want to be "the hero". But then, Rosa Parks was just dead tired and did not want to get up and carry her tired bones to the back of the bus - she did not want or intend to start a bus boycott to end Jim Crow laws. It just sort of turned out that way.

    Or you could be like someone else, who knew they were dealing with someone trying to intimidate them and decided that they were willing to deal with the "minor inconvenience" opposing that would entail. Unfortunately the folks trying to intimidate decided that they would go to a full-court press rather than see they were not on solid ground. Don't know yet if they will end up being a "hero" or the victim of their own audacity for standing up against tyranny.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    I'm getting confused.
    In VA are you required to give your address as well as your name, if your on foot?

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    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasCharged View Post
    I'm getting confused.
    In VA are you required to give your address as well as your name, if your on foot?
    Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

    So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

    Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
    Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
    Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
    Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
    Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
    Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
    Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
    Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
    Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
    Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address
    Last edited by Sesrun; 08-17-2011 at 10:41 AM.

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    Thank you Sesrun.
    Need a card like the VCDL with this info and lawyers names and phone numbers.
    Larry

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GasCharged View Post
    Thank you Sesrun.
    Need a card like the VCDL with this info and lawyers names and phone numbers.
    Larry
    Problem is, there are over 130 unique jurisdictions in the state.

    Although it probably won't help you "on the side of the road", or perhaps "sidewalk" as the case may be, I believe all these ordinances will have provisions that tie the authority to some aspect of public safety. This is not defined, so you will never win on the scene*, but it's worth keeping in mind.

    * One of those little tricks the courts use to maintain their ultimate authority over the law and the citizens who write it.

    TFred

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    TFred,
    I was afraid of that.
    Too darn many laws....it was supposed to be a bit simplier back when....
    Thank You,
    Larry

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Sometimes I almost wonder if it wouldn't be better to establish a sort-of preemption type state-wide law... but only of it has extremely clear guidelines that are strongly enforced with regard to RAS, and specifically disallows "fishing".

    That would never happen.

    TFred

  11. #11
    Regular Member Walt_Kowalski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

    So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

    Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
    Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
    Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
    Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
    Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
    Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
    Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
    Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
    Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
    Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address
    Great post and info.

    I agree with EVERYONE here in that this was not a good encounter. Next time I will have a better way to record the convo (besides my iphone) and will 'stick to my guns' about Stop and ID.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"
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  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Walt,

    Even Sun Tzu cautioned about picking the time and the place of one's battles. Some other guy said something about knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, and when to walk away.

    Not everything is a life-or-death matter. Some stuff is more important than that.

    But we've saved you a spot here on the barricades. "No pasarán!"

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

    So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

    Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
    Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
    Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
    Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
    Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
    Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
    Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
    Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
    Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
    Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address
    Every one of these requires that Public Safety be jeopardized, OC does NOT jeopardize public safety!
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Every one of these requires that Public Safety be jeopardized, OC does NOT jeopardize public safety!
    As I alluded to in my post, unfortunately, the public safety attribute of OC is not the issue. The issue is that the law gives a subjective interpretation power to the LEO on the scene, and you are not privy to what they might know.

    If a robbery took place around the corner just 5 minutes earlier, by a suspect who matches your description, the LEO is going to stop you and demand to know your ID, and in fact you might even be arrested, at least until they figure out it wasn't you.

    There does not seem to be any way around this, given the current state of law.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    Refer to this post. It also has a thread link directly discussing Stop & ID.

    So far of the 80 counties/cities I have looked at 10 have Stop & ID Ordinances which are listed below and generally require both your name and address.

    Alexandria City Sec 1-1-11(c-5) - name, residence address and telephone number
    Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) - name, and address
    Chesapeake City Sec 46-209 - name
    Haymarket Town Sec 30-11 - name, and address
    Manassas City Sec 78-311 (c) - name, and address
    Norfolk City Sec 29-73.1 - "full legal name"
    Roanoke City Sec 23-2 - name, and address
    Salem City Sec 58-23 (c) - name, and address
    Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) - name, and address
    Virginia Beach City Sec 23-7.1 - name, and address

    Maybe we should work on a state preemption for stop and ID. there are somethings that should remain uniformed throughout the common wealth.

  16. #16
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    If a robbery took place around the corner just 5 minutes earlier, by a suspect who matches your description, the LEO is going to stop you and demand to know your ID, and in fact you might even be arrested, at least until they figure out it wasn't you.
    And you would still have the right not to answer... as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequence of being forcibly disarmed, arrested, hauled to the magistrate and positively ID'ed there.

    Not many people are willing to be so inconvenienced. Most cops know this... and use it to their advantage.

    On the other hand, most of the times I have been "stopped" because someone put in a MWAG call the responding officer has been respectful. The only one who asked my name I gave her my first and she was satisfied.

    Only once have I been Terry-stopped for matching the description (a VERY VAGUE description) of a suspect in a fight which presumably took place HOURS earlier in a club in which I had been running sound. Yes, I was armed. Even though I was not obligated, I provided my ID because it was 2 AM and I really would have preferred to go home instead of to the precinct.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    And you would still have the right not to answer... as long as you are willing to accept the potential consequence of being forcibly disarmed, arrested, hauled to the magistrate and positively ID'ed there.

    Not many people are willing to be so inconvenienced. Most cops know this... and use it to their advantage.

    On the other hand, most of the times I have been "stopped" because someone put in a MWAG call the responding officer has been respectful. The only one who asked my name I gave her my first and she was satisfied.

    Only once have I been Terry-stopped for matching the description (a VERY VAGUE description) of a suspect in a fight which presumably took place HOURS earlier in a club in which I had been running sound. Yes, I was armed. Even though I was not obligated, I provided my ID because it was 2 AM and I really would have preferred to go home instead of to the precinct.
    If youre a suspect that matches an armed robbery BOLO then you should expect to be gun faced, disarmed, and detained for investigation. Once its all cleared up and youre determined not to be the suspect, youre free to go. But if you are gun faced, and possibly told why, I would pray everyone here would have the good sense to comply with commands. Quite frankly, I wouldnt put it past an idiot bad guy to try to blend in among a crowd of excited onlookers if his true identity was not revealed (ie face covered, dropped his jacket or other article of clothing). But the odds of that happening are very slim. Youre going to get an apology from the PD, but its for their safety. It may not be perfect, but no one is going home with any extra holes than when they left for the day. We hope.
    OC - Kimber Custom II - trijicon night sights, beveled mag well, and Wilson combat mags
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    Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onegig View Post
    Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.
    Welcome to the forum Onegig.

    No problem with identifying myself verbally.......a one time offer made only after dark; however, a demand for hard copy made under color of law w/o RAS or PC is baseless.

    If met with firm insistence, my next words are, "I respectfully decline. Am I free to go?"
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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onegig View Post
    Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.
    How would this work if you are out one evening or early one morning walking the dog while OC'ing and have not taken along your wallet (rather common practice I would bet)? There goes the tangible ID.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  21. #21
    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    How would this work if you are out one evening or early one morning walking the dog while OC'ing and have not taken along your wallet (rather common practice I would bet)? There goes the tangible ID.
    In such a situation, I would hope that any police officer would not have any reason to ask you for ID. Since you don't have to ID (at least some counties apparently) I would hope that you wouldn't be unjustly harassed and compelled to ID yourself. If I'm violating a code, law, ordinance, et. al. then, please, go ahead and demand my ID. Otherwise leave me alone.

    I always have my ID on me. Force of habit from the military and having been a military brat. If ever I'm in a spot where I needed help and was unable to speak, I'd like folks to know who I am and who to call. That's just me though.

    I agree with Grapeshot, too. I'm a friendly person and I don't mind talking to an officer. If the conversation goes too far beyond pleasant conversation about the weather then I start to be less "cooperative". Everyone's mileage may vary.

    I've seen plenty of video and read plenty of forum posts from folks who are downright rude and near hostile when an officer approaches them. Maybe they have their reasons. It's been my experience that while OC, so many people just don't notice. Those that do are either silent about it or curious. In any case, I just stay pleasant.
    Last edited by Cmdr_Haggis; 10-22-2011 at 11:42 AM.
    As Steve Lee says, "I like guns," and have no plans to get rid of them. My kids will be taught, as I was, about gun safety.

    Life is good.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I never go anywhere without my Medic Alert bracelet. If I need someone to know who I am and I'm not able to tell them the information can be obtained within minutes. You can buy one even if you are the picture of good health - other brands are also available in case anyone thinks I'm trying to shill for one company.

    If you are out and about without your state-issued ID device and have no need for it then the cops are going to have to 1) settle for you being who you say you are or 2) haul you to the fingerprint place, obtain your prints and send them off to the FBI while holding you until a reply is received. Option #2 carries a great deal of risk for the cops should it prove that a) you were who you said you were, b) they had little if any reason to disbelieve you, and c) the wait for a response is prolonged.

    As has been mentioned, stop and ID needs to be tied to a significant public safety issue, less it devolve into a "Papers, please" need to produce them just to be allowed out onto the streets/sidewalk. It is my sincre hope that before we get to that point someone has announced that we all agree that the time to oppose such has arrived.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  23. #23
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    What happens if a cop asks you for your ID in a situation like in the OP and you simply say "I do not consent to any searches or seizures and if you have any more question I'd like to remain silent but I will not resist you"?

    I thought you Americans had this thing part of your constitution that's called The Bill of Rights?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Cmdr_Haggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    What happens if a cop asks you for your ID in a situation like in the OP and you simply say "I do not consent to any searches or seizures and if you have any more question I'd like to remain silent but I will not resist you"?

    I thought you Americans had this thing part of your constitution that's called The Bill of Rights?
    We do. The Second Amendment is part of that Bill of Rights, but look at the shenanigans going on over that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    I never go anywhere without my Medic Alert bracelet. If I need someone to know who I am and I'm not able to tell them the information can be obtained within minutes.
    Skid, that's a fantastic idea and one I hadn't considered. It's been so ingrained in my brain that I need to carry my dependent/active-duty ID that I closed my mind to other options. Road ID is one such item and I remember seeing it in my running magazine - didn't even put two and two together.
    As Steve Lee says, "I like guns," and have no plans to get rid of them. My kids will be taught, as I was, about gun safety.

    Life is good.

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmdr_Haggis View Post
    In such a situation, I would hope that any police officer would not have any reason to ask you for ID. Since you don't have to ID (at least some counties apparently) I would hope that you wouldn't be unjustly harassed and compelled to ID yourself. If I'm violating a code, law, ordinance, et. al. then, please, go ahead and demand my ID. Otherwise leave me alone.

    I always have my ID on me. Force of habit from the military and having been a military brat. If ever I'm in a spot where I needed help and was unable to speak, I'd like folks to know who I am and who to call. That's just me though.

    I agree with Grapeshot, too. I'm a friendly person and I don't mind talking to an officer. If the conversation goes too far beyond pleasant conversation about the weather then I start to be less "cooperative". Everyone's mileage may vary.

    I've seen plenty of video and read plenty of forum posts from folks who are downright rude and near hostile when an officer approaches them. Maybe they have their reasons. It's been my experience that while OC, so many people just don't notice. Those that do are either silent about it or curious. In any case, I just stay pleasant.
    I was specifically referring to those areas where an ID is suppose to be made available to a requesting officer. I agree with your post about being a polite and civil individual and not deliberately trying to get in their face, be an annoyance, or confrontational. Begin rude or nasty to an LEO is naturally going to put them on guard and raise their antennas. After all, they see pretty much the full spectrum of human behavior in our society so I don't expect them to be all warm and fuzzy with someone who is being downright nasty and a jerk. In other words, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt until I perceive a reason not to do this. After all, I want them on our side.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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