Open Carry, Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, and Leesburg PD.

Cmdr_Haggis · Oct 22, 2011

SouthernBoy said:
How would this work if you are out one evening or early one morning walking the dog while OC'ing and have not taken along your wallet (rather common practice I would bet)? There goes the tangible ID.

In such a situation, I would hope that any police officer would not have any reason to ask you for ID. Since you don't have to ID (at least some counties apparently) I would hope that you wouldn't be unjustly harassed and compelled to ID yourself. If I'm violating a code, law, ordinance, et. al. then, please, go ahead and demand my ID. Otherwise leave me alone.

I always have my ID on me. Force of habit from the military and having been a military brat. If ever I'm in a spot where I needed help and was unable to speak, I'd like folks to know who I am and who to call. That's just me though.

I agree with Grapeshot, too. I'm a friendly person and I don't mind talking to an officer. If the conversation goes too far beyond pleasant conversation about the weather then I start to be less "cooperative". Everyone's mileage may vary.

I've seen plenty of video and read plenty of forum posts from folks who are downright rude and near hostile when an officer approaches them. Maybe they have their reasons. It's been my experience that while OC, so many people just don't notice. Those that do are either silent about it or curious. In any case, I just stay pleasant.

skidmark · Oct 22, 2011

I never go anywhere without my Medic Alert bracelet. If I need someone to know who I am and I'm not able to tell them the information can be obtained within minutes. You can buy one even if you are the picture of good health - other brands are also available in case anyone thinks I'm trying to shill for one company.:lol:

If you are out and about without your state-issued ID device and have no need for it then the cops are going to have to 1) settle for you being who you say you are or 2) haul you to the fingerprint place, obtain your prints and send them off to the FBI while holding you until a reply is received. Option #2 carries a great deal of risk for the cops should it prove that a) you were who you said you were, b) they had little if any reason to disbelieve you, and c) the wait for a response is prolonged.

As has been mentioned, stop and ID needs to be tied to a significant public safety issue, less it devolve into a "Papers, please" need to produce them just to be allowed out onto the streets/sidewalk. It is my sincre hope that before we get to that point someone has announced that we all agree that the time to oppose such has arrived.

stay safe.

hazek · Oct 22, 2011

What happens if a cop asks you for your ID in a situation like in the OP and you simply say "I do not consent to any searches or seizures and if you have any more question I'd like to remain silent but I will not resist you"?

I thought you Americans had this thing part of your constitution that's called The Bill of Rights?

Cmdr_Haggis · Oct 22, 2011

hazek said:
What happens if a cop asks you for your ID in a situation like in the OP and you simply say "I do not consent to any searches or seizures and if you have any more question I'd like to remain silent but I will not resist you"?

I thought you Americans had this thing part of your constitution that's called The Bill of Rights?

We do. The Second Amendment is part of that Bill of Rights, but look at the shenanigans going on over that one.

skidmark said:
I never go anywhere without my Medic Alert bracelet. If I need someone to know who I am and I'm not able to tell them the information can be obtained within minutes.

Skid, that's a fantastic idea and one I hadn't considered. It's been so ingrained in my brain that I need to carry my dependent/active-duty ID that I closed my mind to other options. Road ID is one such item and I remember seeing it in my running magazine - didn't even put two and two together.

SouthernBoy · Oct 23, 2011

Cmdr_Haggis said:
In such a situation, I would hope that any police officer would not have any reason to ask you for ID. Since you don't have to ID (at least some counties apparently) I would hope that you wouldn't be unjustly harassed and compelled to ID yourself. If I'm violating a code, law, ordinance, et. al. then, please, go ahead and demand my ID. Otherwise leave me alone.

I always have my ID on me. Force of habit from the military and having been a military brat. If ever I'm in a spot where I needed help and was unable to speak, I'd like folks to know who I am and who to call. That's just me though.

I agree with Grapeshot, too. I'm a friendly person and I don't mind talking to an officer. If the conversation goes too far beyond pleasant conversation about the weather then I start to be less "cooperative". Everyone's mileage may vary.

I've seen plenty of video and read plenty of forum posts from folks who are downright rude and near hostile when an officer approaches them. Maybe they have their reasons. It's been my experience that while OC, so many people just don't notice. Those that do are either silent about it or curious. In any case, I just stay pleasant.

I was specifically referring to those areas where an ID is suppose to be made available to a requesting officer. I agree with your post about being a polite and civil individual and not deliberately trying to get in their face, be an annoyance, or confrontational. Begin rude or nasty to an LEO is naturally going to put them on guard and raise their antennas. After all, they see pretty much the full spectrum of human behavior in our society so I don't expect them to be all warm and fuzzy with someone who is being downright nasty and a jerk. In other words, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt until I perceive a reason not to do this. After all, I want them on our side.

ed · Oct 23, 2011

onegig said:
Just so you are aware. Loudoun County, which the Town of Leesburg is in, has an ordinance requiring identification. It is very similar to the others posted in this thread and those posted in the other thread. It is under the Loitering provision. So while you were in the "Town" corporate limits, you are also in the County, and those ordinances still apply.

Really? cite the code please for both.

Sesrun · Oct 23, 2011

ed said:
Really? cite the code please for both.

As noted in my spreadsheet.

Loudoun County Code 654.01 (d)
http://www.loudoun.gov/controls/spe...&fmpath=/Ordinances/Codified/General+Offenses

654.01 said:
654.01 LOITERING.
(a) Definitions. As used in this section:

(1) "Loiter" means to stand around or remain, or to park or remain parked in a motor
vehicle, at a public place or place open to the public, and engage in any conduct
prohibited under this section. "Loiter" also means to collect, gather, congregate or
be a member of a group or a crowd of people who are gathered together in any
public place or place open to the public and to engage in any conduct prohibited
under this section.
(2) "Public place" means any public street, road, highway, alley, lane, sidewalk,
crosswalk or other public way, or any public resort, place of amusement, park,
playground, public building or grounds appurtenant thereto, school building or
school grounds, public parking lot, or any vacant lot.
(3) "Place open to the public" means any place open to the public or any place to which
the public is invited, and in, on or around any privately owned place of business,
private parking lot or private institution, including places of worship, cemeteries
or any place of amusement and entertainment, whether or not a charge of
admission for entry thereto is made. It includes the elevator, lobby, halls, corridors
and areas open to the public of any store, office or apartment building.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any person to loiter at, on or in a public place or place open to
the public in such a manner:

(1) As to interfere with, impede or hinder the free passage of pedestrian or vehicular
traffic;
(2) As to harass, curse or threaten or do physical harm to another member or members
of the public;
(3) As to threaten or do physical harm to the property of another member or members
of the public; or
(4) That, by words, acts or other conduct, it is clear that there is a present danger of
a breach of the peace or disorderly conduct.

(c) It shall be unlawful for any person or persons to loiter as defined herein and to fail to
move on or disperse at the direction of a duly authorized law enforcement officer.
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to fail
to identify himself or herself at the request of a duly authorized enforcement officer when
circumstances indicate that public safety requires such identification.
(e) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibited lawful assembly and lawful
picketing. (Ord. 90-12. Passed 10-2-90.)

As for the Town of Leesburg being within Loudoun County:
Part I Section 1-1
http://library.municode.com/HTML/14603/level2/PTICH_CH1GEPR.html#PTICH_CH1GEPR_S1-2COSTPOPRGE

Part I Section 1-1 said:
The Corporation of Leesburg, in Virginia, in the County of Loudoun...

However, whether or not the people within the Town of Leesburg limits are held to standard with Loudoun County ordinances I do not know nor can I find a citation.

ocholsteroc · Oct 23, 2011

d) It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to fail
to identify himself or herself at the request of a duly authorized enforcement officer when
circumstances indicate that public safety requires such identification.

What is this???? No you don't?? you don't need to show ID unless you are driving, if you are walking around and get stopped for OCing you dont have to ID? correct me if I am wrong, this is what I have been told.

peter nap · Oct 24, 2011

ocholsteroc said:
What is this???? No you don't?? you don't need to show ID unless you are driving, if you are walking around and get stopped for OCing you dont have to ID? correct me if I am wrong, this is what I have been told.

User has addressed this in the past. It'd be good for you to look at his posts on the subject.

I've spouted off about this before and my feeling is that following the Dillon Rule, localities must have either authorization from the state or constitutional authority, to pass laws.

Many areas either copy the state statute and assign their own number to it or if making their code less restrictive, note the state authority.

I wouldn't have shown ID...but the management could have banned guns afterward also.

Sesrun · Oct 24, 2011

ocholsteroc said:
What is this???? No you don't?? you don't need to show ID unless you are driving, if you are walking around and get stopped for OCing you dont have to ID? correct me if I am wrong, this is what I have been told.

As I stated in post #6 of this thread, for a nice refresher of previous discussions regarding Stop & ID laws in Virginia localities refer to the two threads below:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-stop-today.&p=1590460&viewfull=1#post1590460
http://www.www.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78298-Stop-and-ID

User's comments are also included in those discussions for his clearer legal view of the obligation one has in responding
to such a demand for "Identification" (NOT ID as in a physical ID card).

Baked on Grease · Oct 24, 2011

Sesrun said:
As I stated in post #6 of this thread, for a nice refresher of previous discussions regarding Stop & ID laws in Virginia localities refer to the two threads below:

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-stop-today.&p=1590460&viewfull=1#post1590460
http://www.www.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78298-Stop-and-ID

User's comments are also included in those discussions for his clearer legal view of the obligation one has in responding
to such a demand for "Identification" (NOT ID as in a physical ID card).

What? Am I no longer an OCDO virgin? I get a thread I started cited to help others, this might be the third happiest day of my life.

For emphasis, I'll repeat what is said above. Request for identification does not mean request for ID, as in some government issued physical ID card. Only that you verbally or otherwise Identify yourself to the requesting officer. The officer IS going to pressure you into providing an ID card, even in localities that don't require you to identify oneself. I think one reason for this is they can "detain" you without detaining you by not giving the card back, claiming that the ID proccess takes a while.

Sent using tapatalk

skidmark · Oct 24, 2011

Baked on Grease said:
What? Am I no longer an OCDO virgin? I get a thread I started cited to help others, this might be the third happiest day of my life.

For emphasis, I'll repeat what is said above. Request for identification does not mean request for ID, as in some government issued physical ID card. Only that you verbally or otherwise Identify yourself to the requesting officer. The officer IS going to pressure you into providing an ID card, even in localities that don't require you to identify oneself. I think one reason for this is they can "detain" you without detaining you by not giving the card back, claiming that the ID proccess takes a while.

Sent using tapatalk

Too many appelate court cases have all consistently held that taking a person's identification document is effectively detaining them. I'd say every reasonable (and all unreasonable) officers ought to be aware of that by now.

And as for being cited by someone else - relax, it happens to folks every once in a while. Just be happy that you were the good example.

stay safe.

peter nap · Oct 24, 2011

Baked on Grease said:
What? Am I no longer an OCDO virgin? I get a thread I started cited to help others, this might be the third happiest day of my life.

For emphasis, I'll repeat what is said above. Request for identification does not mean request for ID, as in some government issued physical ID card. Only that you verbally or otherwise Identify yourself to the requesting officer. The officer IS going to pressure you into providing an ID card, even in localities that don't require you to identify oneself. I think one reason for this is they can "detain" you without detaining you by not giving the card back, claiming that the ID proccess takes a while.

Sent using tapatalk

Nope you're not a virgin anymore!:lol: It was/is a very good thread. Well researched and thought out. Add two 44's to your profile

The reason I suggested he do some searching of Dan's posts is that he has also said in later posts, that case law negated the old common law requiring one to identify oneself after dark.

The officer IS going to pressure you into providing an ID card,

That is more of an issue than the legal aspect. No everyone is as blunt as I am and they try to have a rational conversation with the officer. That never works!

Just say no is catchy, but hard for some of us to do. There is also always the chance that you'll get a really bad cop who'll drum up charges just to be an ass.
Remember Skidmark's case. One of the charges was OBSTRUCTION, which was not in any way correct however he still had it hanging until it was dropped.

In a truly corrupt locality like Surry, it can be a problem and from what I gather, NOVA is worse because the cops there are better at trumping up charges.

Careful recording is a good deterrent and one of the few times Skidmark DID NOT have a recorder.

Grapeshot · Oct 24, 2011

Baked on Grease said:
What? Am I no longer an OCDO virgin? I get a thread I started cited to help others, this might be the third happiest day of my life.

Between our own beginning and ending dates there are a few such defining moments in life.

Baked on Grease said:
For emphasis, I'll repeat what is said above. Request for identification does not mean request for ID, as in some government issued physical ID card. Only that you verbally or otherwise Identify yourself to the requesting officer. The officer IS going to pressure you into providing an ID card, even in localities that don't require you to identify oneself. I think one reason for this is they can "detain" you without detaining you by not giving the card back, claiming that the ID proccess takes a while.

If during daylight hours, "No thank you officer. Have a nice day." Then depart. If after dark (see user's explanation) then, "My name is Dale" - note: not to be repeated. "Have a nice evening." This will often avoid the "Am I being detained, Am I free to go" drill.

Providing physical ID during a consensual conversation painted under color of law - never voluntarily, not once, ever, now or then!

TFred · Oct 24, 2011

The one part of this equation which has always bothered me is this: Why do I have to leave at the end of a "consensual" conversation? What if I am perfectly happy, sitting on a bench with a nice view, or any of a thousand other scenarios based on perfectly legal activity, when this encounter happens? Why do I have to leave my place to keep out of trouble when I have done nothing wrong?

What happens if you clearly end the conversation "Have a nice day" then just stop talking?

TFred

Grapeshot · Oct 24, 2011

TFred said:
The one part of this equation which has always bothered me is this: Why do I have to leave at the end of a "consensual" conversation? What if I am perfectly happy, sitting on a bench with a nice view, or any of a thousand other scenarios based on perfectly legal activity, when this encounter happens? Why do I have to leave my place to keep out of trouble when I have done nothing wrong?

What happens if you clearly end the conversation "Have a nice day" then just stop talking?

TFred

You are right of course Fred. My presumption was that I had been interrupted while on a journey from point A to point B - also my remarks do NOT apply to a traffic stop with flashing lights and all that implies.

If I were legally occupying ground, physically with my person, whether or not a park bench with or w/o a checker/chess board, I have several options/choices that are MINE to make.

1) I can ignore him and not engage further in conversation, hoping he will simply go away. It's possible, no?

2) If he persists and/or escalates the conversation to a demand, call for a supervisor.

3) Walking away from a confrontation is not anything that I "have" to do, but it can be a decidedly good tactic.

Here is a variant of #3 which I have used before - I do a loop the loop maneuver. I leave, but my route takes me back to where I had been when it all started. Now if the officer returns or reengages me he is contributing to my harassment case/complaint.

Open Carry, Cobb Village 12 Cinemas, and Leesburg PD.

Cmdr_Haggis

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